BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???

Subject: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:26 PM

Hear on CNN, FoxNews, etc. that they are "stepping in" with millions (maybe billions) of dollars to support the Hamas govt. sure to fall without help from the "West" newly elected in Palestine.

Did these sheiks forget who pulled their butts out of the fire during the so-called first Gulf War? Anyone want to speculate as to why they're willing to pump tons of money into this ill-prepared, unaware government? Given recent threads, how are we ever going to achieve peace in this region? Who will negotiate with Hamas? Suddenly, Arafat is looking better....:(

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:46 PM

If you were them would you turn towards the west? The west is looking towards the east & the east doesn't like or trust the look in their eye. So far we've provided a road map from a "drunk that couldn't navigate himself past a barroom door" (a line from Ewan McColl). As a region, if push comes to shove the Middle East while bond together & bach each other when the situtation becomes impossible. Bring on the crusaders, again.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:53 PM

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting this Anonny. Not judging what's right or wrong with what's occuring ... but it makes sense.

Just going to sit back and watch the reactions here in the mudcat.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:11 PM

Well, this don't surprise me much... It's probably a right savy decision to make... Remember, uit was the Saudi's that propsed the "Saudi Proposal" which would have brought a lot more stability to the Middle East than Bush's cowboy invasion... It is in the Saudi's best interent to see that Hamas doesn't fail in at least running the government... I don't think they are as hung up by the rhetoric as cowboy Bush and are taking a more realistic and prgmantic rather than confrontational approach...

Good on them...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 09:33 PM

Bullshit.

The Saudi govt. just wants to be in a position to call the shots. Lots of money will give them the leverage they want.

They haven't forgotten Gulf War I. It rubbed their collective noses in the fact that they could not protect themselves or the Muslim Holy Cities. Rather than feeling grateful for the bailout, they hate the US for shaming them in their inadequacy.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:14 PM

Oh, so you think that Bush's response to Hamas's victory was all peaches and cream, troll???

As fir inadequacy, other than perhaps Isreal with it's nukes, it's a given if yer a country in the Middle East...

As fir shaming Middle East countries, the US doesn't dicriminate, as long as it isn't Isreal...

I think you might do well to revist yer knee-jerk "bullsh*t" reaction, but you won't...

Maybe a little "anger management", though...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:27 PM

You are right for once, Bobert.

I won't.

But is it your contention that we should have let Saddam have Kuwait in order to spare the feelings of the Saudis among others? The Arab countries of the Middle East were able to preserve their fiction until Gulf War I. No one ever likes those who expose their weaknesses.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:34 PM

Agreed, troll...

Problem is that Saddam was one of "our guys" and thought he had gotten an "okay wink" from Bush I...

Bad communications on both parties...

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:53 AM

As a minimum the Palestinian Authority needs between $70 and $150 million per year just to function. That Hamas can raise from its current paymasters in Syria and Iran with some help from private contributors (One of whom gives them $4 every year). Last year the Palestinian Authority received $600 million from the EU and $400 million from the USA.

With the election of Hamas (which I predicted many many months ago) the following organisations have stated that they want a clear statement from Hamas acknowledging Israel's right to exist, the United Nations, the European Union and the Government of the United States of America. Hamas has stated that they would not bend to such harsh, imposed conditions, which is fair enough that is their choice, they have not yet felt the burden of responsibility as the elected government of a an aspiring nation. They will come to realise that they no longer have the luxury of ideals, they have to provide government and leadership for their electorate, they have to help provide jobs and security.

If Saudi Arabia wants to step in and help Hamas while they come to this realisation all well and good. But Hamas would be well advised to examine the motives of the Saudi's very closely. It could be that Saudi Arabia is quite prepared to 'maintain' Palestine as a charity 'basket case' state and allow Hamas to foster the illusion that things can go on as before because the money keeps rolling in. Hamas will degenerate into the same inept and corrupt government and administration that the Palestinian people learned to accept as the norm under Arafat. This will lead to disenchantment with the democratic political process, Palestine will remain weak and angry and the conflict will continue - exactly what Saudi Arabia wants.

The truth of the matter is that for there to be any Palestinian State it must co-operate very closely with the State of Israel, doesn't matter how much money saudi pumps in.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:54 AM

Sorry that should have $4 million every year.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:48 AM

Well, I personally don't care if Donald Duck chips in the dough... Motives aren't as important now as creating some level of stability with the new governemnt and a continued effort on Hamas's part to not conduct vilence against Isreal...

The rest will shake out...

What I do have problems with is this rhetorical altimatum, especially from Bush on the "right to exist"... It is understood as it has been the US's policy forever and he didn't need to play it up to keep his base happy while Hamas is struggling to set up an effective government... Bush should have let it be.... BVut holding ones tongue has never been one of Bush's strong suits...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 12:58 PM

FWIW, Newsweek's "take" on this is that the people chose the worse of two "evils," and that mideast peace-negotiations will come to a grinding halt. Now I realize Newsweek is Newsweek-but they have some pretty decent columnists like Fareed Zakaria...who seems to have an informed grip on the Middle East.

Interesting article if any of you feel so moved as to pick up a copy, or subscribe. Between the mess in Iraq (whether yer for the reasons we went in or not) a nut-job running Iran and wanting nukes, Hamas in power for the Palestinians, Sharon gone, etc. etc. I ain't real optimistic. I don't see how Sharon's govt. would have dealt with Hamas. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:20 PM

Tell you what - How about suggesting a Referendum of the "Palestinian People" give them the choice:

Do you want to

A. Eliminate Israel, exterminate it's population and drive them into the sea.

OR

B. Co-exist with the State of Israel and enjoy the benefits of peace and prosperity.

What do you think the answer would be?

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:16 PM

B.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:36 PM

I think their answer would be "B", teribus. Although I'm not 100% sure, but I think so. That's my best guess. Maybe I'm wrong. It would be interesting to hold such a referendum and see. The fact remains, though, they can't eliminate Israel, exterminate its population and drive them into the sea. They don't have the firepower to do it.

I also think your analysis of the situation (as set out in your post of 04 Feb 06 - 02:53 AM) is overall quite realistic and accurate.

Surprise! We agree on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:24 PM

"Did these sheiks forget who pulled their butts out of the fire during the so-called first Gulf War?"

And if the UK were to support the Palistinians I suppose you would remind us that if it weren't for the good old US of A we Brits would be speaking German now.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:29 PM

If it wasn't for the French, the Americans would be speaking English now... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM

What a dumb quiz, T...

Hey, given the fact that Isreal possesses 200 nukes, B is the only choice...

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

200? I thought it was 400?

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 07:52 PM

Hey, LH, it's the Middle East... 200? 400? 4000> Don't matter much 'cause half a dozen 'ill blow 'um all off the map....

Which does make me wonder... Okay, if half a dozen will take out the entire Middle East, okay then eight, gol dangit.... But like what's Isreal doing with 200, 400 'er 4000 nukes???

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Shields Folk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:05 PM

Who let that happen?

Oh yes Uncle Sam!

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 08:13 PM

It's like anything else, Bobert. The "collecting" instinct takes over. 5 or 10 bombs just aren't enough.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:18 PM

Before the nuclear freeze movement, and decommissioning of some of the then Soviet and U.S. nukes I believe I recall a stat saying that every man, woman and child on the planet had the equivalent of 1000 lbs. of dynamite reserved just for them. Don't know where that stat stands these days...but I'd bet it's not down much. Can't wait 'til Iran has their arsenal, and N. Korea owns up to whatever they have.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:29 PM

North Korea would probably prefer not to say....it's scarier when you don't know for sure how many there are.

As for Iran, that may get pre-empted by the next war.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 10:20 PM

Instead of a war, why can't the middle-east be a nuclear free zone? No nukes for Israel or anyone else. Is that possible? Why or why not?

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 11:37 PM

Great idea. But it ain't gonna happen. It would require mutual goodwill and acceptance on the part of the leaders on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Grab
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM

FWIW, an awful lot of people think that the USA picked the worst of two evils too. And Israel when they elected Ariel Sharon.

The sad fact is, democracy means the people elect who *they* think will best serve their interests. If they happen to think it's Hamas, or GWB, or Sharon, well they're fuckwits and we'll all say so, but that was their choice. And they, and we, are stuck with it.

Given the choice, what would we rather have? A democratically elected government, supported by the people, which espouses a policy we don't approve of? Or a self-imposed government whose opinions we might like better, but which is weak and can't claim to speak for the people of the nation it claims to rule? Or a total breakdown of all rule of law, and unrestrained violence?

For a while, the Palestinians had option B. The Saudis at least have the brains to go for option A. The US and EU are apparently busy trying to make option C happen - either out of ignorance and stupidity, or possibly (conspiracy theory option) with the desired end result of saying "we told you they couldn't rule a country" when they're starved of cash. The Saudis will also have built up their cred amongst the other nations of the Middle East, which has suffered with having the US using them as the world's biggest aircraft carrier, so their decision has good consequences for them on several levels.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 06:17 PM

One of the richest Princes in Saudi Arabia is single-handedly funding a new broadcast staion which will seek to provide role-models of moderate, peace-loving, disciplined and resposnible Muslimism through various shows and presentations modeled after opinion leaders like Oprah in the West, but much more dignified, and free of authoritarian lecturing or hate-mongering. This is avery promising sign. His sponsorship has enabled the station to start up with excellent equipment and a good shot at making their moderate views felt all across the Muslim world. Enshallah! This is based on an NPRnews story heard on the radio. Soundfile should be at this link ( WMA file)

A

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:50 AM

Bobert,

"a continued effort on Hamas's part to not conduct vilence against Isreal..."


Continued????????????????????


LittleHawk,

"The fact remains, though, they can't eliminate Israel, exterminate its population and drive them into the sea. They don't have the firepower to do it."

So? Iran is a county that forced their own young children to march in front of military troops and vehicles in order to set off Iraqi landmines.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 07:19 AM

"If Hamas, which recently won a ruling bloc in Palestinian elections, can accept terms set forth by the United States, Russia, the U.N. and European Union, then "we can do business," said Danny Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States.

Last week, after holding a ministerial meeting in London, the four nations issued a statement calling on Hamas to recognize Israel, denounce violence and terrorism and disband its militias."



http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/09/israel.palestinians/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: leftydee
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:48 AM

Does anyone other than me think that in "The War On Terror" the Saudis ARE the enemy? I mean, I know their crown prince can hold hands with our president, but........... the vast majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, the Saudis invest heavily in muslim "charities", Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi, now they're investing in Hamas. It seems pretty obvious to me that they straddle the fence. They love selling the west high priced (and developed by the west, incidentially) oil while waging war on our culture. The game they play keeps the carnage off their turf. When attacked by Iraq in GHWB's war they depended on American blood getting spilled to protect them but are very happy to tighten the screws on oil prices when we need some relief. They are running a nice little antiseptic holy war and noone seems to have the balls to call them on it.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM

leftydee,

No real argument with any of your points.

"It seems pretty obvious to me that they straddle the fence." sums it up quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 11:29 AM

That's true what you said, BB, but they still do not have the capability to effectively attack Israel. Not a chance. What they can do, if push comes to shove, is launch a quite nasty land war into Iraq and encourage the Shiite population there to rise up against the American occupation forces. They could not win it, but they could do a lot of damage. Another thing they could do is shut down oil tanker traffic in the Gulf by launching air and missile attacks on tankers and facilities there. Those actions would cause great harm to the USA, costing lives and money, and would raise the price of oil catastrophically, impacting our economy...but they would do no harm whatsoever to Israel.

All Iran can really do to Israel is help fund and assist isolated terrorist attacks, such as we have seen in the past. They could theoretically lob a few Shahabs at Israel, but they won't, unless they have nothing left to lose...because the Israelis have 200 to 400 nuclear weapons which they can hit Iran with at a moment's notice. That makes it a "no-win" proposition for Iran, and they are not stupid.

You may believe that their religious fanaticism renders them incapable of ordinary pragmatic reasoning ability, but I think you are entirely mistaken in that. They will not initiate actions which would inevitably result in their own extinction, unless they think they are going down to destruction regardless and have nothing to lose...(like the Japanese kamikazes in WWII).

(The reason the Iranians were so profligate with lives in the Iran-Iraq war was: they had the great advantage in manpower (and, yes, they used children too)...whereas the Iraqis had the great advantages in dug-in defenses, more artillery, and more modern equipment. So the Iranians used masses of individual people against hi-tech. The Russians did that many times in 1941 and '42 also, sending human wave attacks against the Germans in which only a minority of the Russian soldiers had guns! The living were instructed to pick up guns off the dead, and keep attacking. The Germans massacred them by the thousands, and yet the Russians poured in more men, and sometimes overwhelmed the German positions. That's what you do when you are more populous, but less well-armed than your opponent.)

The Japanese kamikazes were young men who expected to die...regardless of whether they fought conventionally or launched one-way missions. Their chances of survival were virtually nil in either case. Accordingly, they flew one-way missions. The Iranians will do that too, if they are attacked and know for certain it's their last shot. They won't do it otherwise, in my opinion. It would mean the total defeat of their cause, and that is not what they seek. They seek first, national survival...and after that, if possible, a decisive victory. (same as Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:39 PM

"They could theoretically lob a few Shahabs at Israel, but they won't, unless they have nothing left to lose...because the Israelis have 200 to 400 nuclear weapons which they can hit Iran with at a moment's notice. That makes it a "no-win" proposition for Iran, and they are not stupid."


I disagree with your assessment of the likelyhood of ran doing something this stupid. Opinions, again- but in the case of nuclear weapons, isn't it better to try to AVOID their use, entirely?



"They seek first, national survival...and after that, if possible, a decisive victory. (same as Israel) "

IMO, Iran would easily sacrifice the entire Palestinian people in order to destroy Israel- I do not consider that an acceptable situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM

But they wouldn't just be destroying the Palestinian people. They would also be destroying themselves. And we really are not talking about avoiding the use of nuclear weapons. What we are doing is making justificatons for using them in a first strike against Iran ourselves. Something which, BTW, we have been talking about for longer than the current Iranian "nuclear weapons crisis".

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:58 PM

CarolC,

The Iranian facilities could be destroyed with conventional explosive. No use of Nuclear devices is required.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:54 PM

I think the real enemy is the hold that men have placed over their minds which leads to a blockage in their hearts. The Orwellian concept of doublethink and language control is now positioned in the Islamic world so as to turn satire/ irony/ humor into the word: crimethink or 'blashpheme'. This is not unique to the Muslim world, but it is now most extant there.

The true situation is a blend of politics, religion, tribal interplays and cultural considerations along with the blackest brainwashing. Media of the day is hopeless to give it an honest rendition.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:32 PM

We shall see, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: What's With Saudi Arabia???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

Yes, we shall see. I, like Carol, am objecting to the constant search by the USA and Israel, the verbal twisting and turning to somehow justify a "first strike", as though it was really the moral thing to do. It's complete moral doubletalk, and they would find it totally illegal and unjustifiable in anyone but themselves. This is hypocrisy, massive hypocrisy, and it makes them just as bad in basic intent as the fanatical mullahs in Iran, who practice a similar moral double standard (but who have only a fraction of the deadly firepower, so their threats are like the huffing and puffing of an almost toothless wolf who hopes that he will seem sufficiently frightening to at least scare someone).