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BS: Brit soldiers video
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Subject: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Feb 06 - 01:56 PM Sorry to start a new thread, but the old one is closed. In case anyone was interested in the supposed object of the thread, last I heard 3 soldiers had been arrested by the RMPs, and one Iraqui had come forward claiming to be a victim. He was aged 27 so even two years ago we would not be talking child abuse Tir (who defines a kick in the crotch as a sexual act).
This thread is about the conduct of British soldiers in Iraq. Please discuss other subjects in other threads. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM No comment from me here. Just here to read posts on subject and not fall out with anyone ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:16 AM For what it is worth, and to correct the perception seemingly enjoyed by the sender of a stream of PMs to me, I repeat that the situation cannot properly be judged without considering both perspectives. It appears possible that crimes have been committed by the soldiers - but the most recent relevant UK case I know of, involving a video seen on national TV of about 4 policemen with modern long truncheons whacking the hell out of a lone person arrested and lying on the ground, one policeman twice whipping in from the edge of the fracas just to get a couple of licks in with his truncheon, resulted in a case being brought by the prisoner which failed on the ground that the force used was reasonable and justified. The issue on the thread(s) seems to be whether the soldiers' actions should cause outrage. Whether there was a crime is not the be-all and end-all of that matter. We mostly commit some crimes on a daily basis. These were not relatively peaceful demonstrators like those the police crushed with horses in Red Lion Square. The information we have seems to indicate they were not peaceful bystanders brutalised and arrested (or vice versa) like in the miners' strike. These were rioters with (or immediately involved with others with) explosive weapons, who chose to attack soldiers, and received a prompt response. It is not like the calculated endless brutality in Guantanamo Bay, or like Abu Graib, or even like the systematic brutalisation of captives that Iraqi troops handed out to captured US personnel. It is not like the machine-gunning of Moslems in former Czechoslovakia, or Jews in Nazi Germany (or captured British troops by Americans in the American war of independence). It is not like Israeli armoured bulldozers crushing Palestian homes. It is not like "freedom fighters" (wherever from) blowing up uninvolved civilians. In perspective, if the rioters had been soldiers, their treatment would probably seem to have been a pretty clear breach of the Geneva convention. But to call it an outrage is an over-reaction that results in there being no appropriate words to use for far greater wrongs. The reaction that it was a huge outrage seems largely to be based on an over-eagerness to condemn the British. What was seen on the video was not proper, probably excessive, but understandable, and not amazing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM Thank you Richard for putting a bit of perspective on this one. Too many people with single issue politics and tunnel vision jump up and down in self righteous anger when these subjects are discussed. There is an awful lot of "My enemies enemy, is my friend" in most of these posts. While I do not doubt the authenticity of the film or condone the actions taken, I can almost understand the frustration that led to the event. What I do have my doubts about is the authenticity of the background commentary. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Teribus Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:36 AM Very well put Mr. Bridge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Gurney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:42 AM When I was a young recruit, there was an incident in Aldershot when a couple of soldiers were beaten up by a gang of Teddy-boys, -which should date it,- and we were ORDERED not to go there in groups of less than 3, ordered to wear boots and belts,(Normally illegal, and belts being a considerable weapon) and ordered to check out any fracas, in case soldiers needed help. Soldiers are not policemen, and they didn't join the army because they are shrinking violets. If you go looking for trouble with soldiers you will probably find it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 05:18 AM Since the release of the video, some much more disturbing images of prisoner abuse by US soldiers have emerged. These passed without comment by Divis, Tir and Epona. It was almost as if their only interest in the subject was to further their hate campaign against Britain. But I am sure that is not the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Feb 06 - 05:49 AM I realise that I seem to be a lone voice on this issue, but I am disconcerted by the general tenor of the response to this incident. As an Englishman, I am not trying to conduct a hate campaign against Britain. Completely the reverse in fact. These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught. IMHO, their actions were at best reprehensible, and at worst damaging to the stated intention to establish rule of law in a new democratic Iraq. Richard has referred to a number of PMs which passed between us after the original thread was closed, and the following is part of my last message to him. ----"Now you are really stretching. So far in fact that I begin to wonder if you are pulling my chain by playing devil's advocate? That comment seems completely illogical, in that we are talking (are we not?) about rule of law. Now I'm not conversant with the law in the way you are (obviously), but I cannot believe that you are serious. Since when has "He did it to me first been accepted as a defence, except in a situation where the response has been a)instantaneous, and b)Instinctive. No considered response after elapsed time can be either. In the British Army, as in most modern fighting forces, soldiers are trained to handle a multitude of different situations, and their training is designed to ingrain the correct response to an extent where it becomes automatic. The reaction we saw in that video was contrary to the training, and owed more to revenge and punishment than to the containment of the situation. Punishment is the prerogative of the Judiciary, whether British or Iraqi, not the military".---- It is not so long ago that British and Americans catters were making pretty strong comments on the "heavy handed" actions of US troops who were in a war situation fighting to pacify towns where they were battling house to house with enemy forces. Yet we have some of those same people trying to justify over the top action by British troops in an essentially peacekeeping situation. Let me say it one last time, then I'm out of here. These actions CANNOT be justified on any legal basis, and reflect no credit on my country, which these men are supposed to be serving. In addition they have given an almighty boost to the recruiting of more fighters by the insurgency they are there to contain. That's all folks. Bye Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:52 AM No, I don't think this is purely a technical legal issue. I don't think that was the purpose of the original thread either. And, to head off any other invasions by those with particular perspectives, I don't think a detailed re-examination of the Irish situation (The Irish and the English, whether defined by birthplace or heritage, have been disagreeing since about 1630 and more, but we are now both subjects of our masters in Brussells) is likely to illuminate the area, and further, views coloured by those issues are unlikely to help understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:54 AM PS, if they had been Isreali soldiers, imagine what Martin Gibson would have been saying about antisemitism by now. Quick, Joeclone, delete this before Martin spots it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Pied Piper Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:58 AM When this story appeared on the telly a thought crossed my mind that it would be Divis that started a thread about it here, and guess what. I'm just glad that those nice people in Sien Fien/PIRA never stooped to such behaviour. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:12 AM Don, you said " These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught." How about patience, tolerance and restraint? Although attacked with lethal force, they fired no shots but went forth in riot gear but without firearms. Ever see pictures of any other national troops on the ground in Iraq without guns? (Including Iraqi soldiers and police?) You said, "Since when has "He did it to me first been accepted as a defence, except in a situation where the response has been a)instantaneous, and b)Instinctive. No considered response after elapsed time can be either." We have seen the complete sequence now. The explosions went off, the troops wents straight out, made the snatch,and brought them in. There was no elapsed time or considered response. Again I do not say it was right, indeed I used strong words to condemn it. I do say that it was understandable and in the context of recent events in Iraq it was a comparitively minor occurrance. No lives lost or bones broken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:25 AM And no sexual humiliation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:33 AM We will probably see more such pictures in the future now that technology allows them to be obtained/produced much easier than with the technology of the past - but that in itself is not connected to whether there will be more or fewer such actual incidents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 18 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM Keith, Saw the pictures released by the Australian newspapaer when they came out. I brought my boss into my office to see them and then I talked to the "big guy" in charge and asked for his permission to have a meeting with the personnel at my location. Did the same thing with the soldiers in my Guard unit as well, and we discussed the pictures and vented our frustration, anger and horror at the newly released pictures. As much as you would like to make it an "us against the British" issue, I can and will only speak for myself. I said it on the other thread as well. Atrocities committed by soldiers make me feel ill. It does outrage me because people have a tendency to think that when one of a group does evil acts, we all do. I didn't become a soldier to mistreat prisoners. I became one because I believe it is essential to serve my country for everything it has given me. My soldiers here feel the same way. Threads like these that broach subjects that can often lead to heated debate are very much needed. It is through discussion that we can learn from others and possibly see a different side to the situation and alter our point of view. Though I love joking, I've always tried to be civil. I would appreciate it, Keith, if you would drop the insinuations where I am concerned. I would hate for another important thread to be closed due to it becoming a "name-calling session." It would be very much appreciated. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Mr Fox Date: 18 Feb 06 - 12:58 PM "These soldiers reflect few, if any, of the British values that I was taught." Really? They reflect the British 'values' I know about - Racism, an in-group mentality of superiority, a culture of violence and basic anti-intellectualism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 02:16 PM Epona, I accept what you say about your own service peoples' crimes, but I could only judge you by what you have posted here. You have never contributed to any discussion of mistreatment by US personel in Iraq or Guantanamo, but post extensively when Divis starts a thread highly critical of UK troops. While that thread was running more film and photos of US mistreatment emerge, but you make no comment. You also express mirth at Divis little joke about shooting British soldiers being really a sexual adventure. Can you understand why I formed the opinion that you were posting with an anti british agenda? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 02:52 PM Just wish to say to those posters above who are pushing for a reaction from me as to their remarks, you are wasting your time. Regarding the incident which happened in Iraq,It was wrong be it American, British or whatever nation's armed forces. They are there to maintain peace on the streets and not to attack anyone in the manner of street thugs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM Why did you never start any threads about US misdeeds then Sweeney, or even contribute? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:30 PM Probably because I know as much about American affairs as you know about Irish ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Feb 06 - 03:49 PM Not good enough Divis. There was every bit as much media coverage of the US videos as of the British ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:02 PM Then take it up with the American mudcatters. Don't forget to hit them about their history as you do with me. You could mention vietnam or hiroshima! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:07 PM Oh forgot to add Keith. American mudcatters are always nice to me. Some lovely pm's from time to time.Funny how they don't cast up past events to me.Next question please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 18 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM I go to almost all the threads on this site, though I don't post to all of them. The several times I've read over threads about American politics, I didn't post because I like to be careful what I say about the Commander and Chief, though I will say easily that I didn't vote for him. The threads about American soldiers I will always stay away from because I don't want to get pulled into being the spokesperson for American military members. Also, I'm proud of the soldiers I know and hate to see nasty things said about them. I enjoy taking part of Irish threads because almost everyone who participates brings great knowledge and fire to the threads. Hope I'm answering your questions.... I love Divis Sweeney's post about the lady on the roof of Divis flats because every time you try to use his words against him, you fall short. Plus, it was a hilarious story! :) Let's see. What else did you want to know? Oh, yes. If someone had informed me that I was supposed to start a thread on the newly published photos, I would have done so. As the memo didn't reach, I had no idea! Good luck with your attempts to start another mud-slinging match, Keith. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:04 AM I will leave the mud slinging to others. Thanks for your reply, though I have to say that I am not convinced. Perhaps it is just me. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:44 AM Let's agree Keith your soldiers were wrong in the response they took. And agree they were also wrong to get caught.It will be of interest to many of us the outcome of the enquiry. I saw in an earlier post from someone who had a brother or brother in law out serving in Iraq with the British Army and he was aware of the video two years ago. It was silly not to erase it knowing the sh1t it would cause if it ever got out. Strange the trophies that soldiers bring home now adays. I would of been happy with a helmet of bayonet ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:50 AM Funny thing here. I have been listening to some ex-military people I know, and they seem to think the troops might have been Eniskillens (now just a cap badge, I think), which would probably make them from Ireland (Northern Ireland, although I am told quite a lot of people from the Republic of Ireland used to join the Eniskillens to get training in a trade). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:01 AM Richard the Enniskillings were disbanded in 1968 along with the Royal Ulster Rifles and Royal Irish Fusiliers during the amalgamation. They formed the Royal Irish Rangers who with the Ulster Defence Regiment were disbanded in 1992 to form the Royal Irish Regiment. I am told the Royal Irish Regiment were not stationed there were the incident took place two years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:04 AM And sorry the regiment used the old spelling which was Inniskillings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:43 AM Sweeney, I can agree with your 06.44 post. We only ever disagreed about whether you were in a position to criticise. With your history you are living in a glass house. Sling away with the mud but hold the stones! Till the next time, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:00 AM As many are aware, the sins of the now disbanded PIRA have been apologized for. I apologized to you several times in the last thread, something I note to didn't reply to. The topic of this thread is very current. That's why I replied to it. I have never asked or expected an apology from you as to the past sins of your countrymen. That's were we differ Keith. It takes a big man in my book to say the word sorry. Sorry moved out of the glass house last July after your elected government accepted the apology and asked people to move on. Mr. Blair must have got your answerphone and decided not to leave a message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:13 AM Then I suppose it's a good thing that I'm not here to convince you of anything, Keith! :) Cheers, E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:16 PM I thought I was told that the (however it is spelt) Inniskillings still existed as a cap badge if not an entirely separate entity. I profess to no knowledge about British military organisation, merely reporting what I was I thought told. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM Richard, The capbadge of the Inniskillings was a flaming grenade as worn by many Fusilier Regiments. The Inniskillings had the castle of Enniskillen in the centre. The only Irish Regiment out in Iraq are the Royal Irish Regiment who's badge is a crowned maid of Erne harp. Best wishes Seamus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM You did not reply to the thread Sweeney, you started it. Remember? This is just a continuation of it. And yes, it was big of you to say sorry for the torturing, killing and disappearing that your firm engaged in institutionally (i.e. not just rogue, out of control members but routine policy). It still leaves you in a weak position to criticise much less savage behaviour in others. You must have expected your position to be challenged. Let he who is without sin sling the first mud. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM Carefully crafted words may have been enough to strike a reaction Keith. But using the same old lines that I have read from you over and over again and having given you the same reply over and over doesn't. Everyone must work to make sure conflict in Ireland is a thing of the past. Is that a problem for you Keith ? "Sinn Fein is committed to exclusively peaceful and democratic means to achieve a way forward." An end to conflict over here means all weapons of all groups must be destroyed. Are you aware of Loyalist groups here in the North of Ireland ?. Well Keith there are very nasty men over here in loyalist groups such as the UVF. LVF. UFF. Did nobody tell you about them ? How do you feel about them ? Did I not tell you about the PIRA ending the war last July ? So so sorry Keith, it slipped my mind, was kinda busy at the time. The British government on the 28th of July told us it was a "A highly significant initiative" and for us all to move forward together and leave the past behind. So tell me please Keith is there a problem here for you ? Thanks so much for the acknowledgement of me saying sorry to you Keith, means a lot to hear it. So let's get back to this thread which is about British soldiers Kicking and beating Iraqi's. The thread you started ? Well it's got you name on it, not mine! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:11 PM Nope, your thread. Revived by me when Joe closed it. See opening post this thread. If a contributer who had once been one of those nasty men in the UVF,LVF or UFF came on this forum sanctimoniously criticising some infringment of human rights by someone else, I would remind them of their past too. I expect you would too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:21 PM If a contributer who had once been one of those nasty men in the UVF,LVF or UFF came on this forum sanctimoniously criticising some infringment of human rights by someone else, I would remind them of their past too. Keith you are doing it again, Once been one of those nasty men, remind them of their past. Please dig up any post where I claimed membership of the PIRA on this site ? Also if my thread was closed how could you of revived it ? No Keith, new thread, your thread. Ask Joe if you don't believe me. Let's get back to YOUR thread about British peace keepers kicking lumps out of Iraqi's. Hope your well. Best wishes Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:37 PM Opening senetence of this thread revival... Sorry to start a new thread, but the old one is closed. If anyone else is still reading this, sorry for the repeat but Sweeney must have missed it last time. On 3rd October in message 1574703 you wrote, " Our victory speaks for its self. We disbanded volunteerily in July05. The same can't be said for the B Specials, U.D.R. and The R.U.C. Your British government disbanded them for their actions. We will be remembered by historians as hero's one and all. " There was also your post of 18thSeptember (1566239) where you spoke of having shot people to death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM The quote of the 3rd October Keith, I spoke as a Republican. Do you not know the difference ?????? As for that last remark of yours, making this slurred allegation about me taking human life, that's total rubbish. Now now Keith surely you can do better than this in your failing attempts to move the spotlight away from YOUR thread and the actions of YOUR troops kicking lumps out of young Iraqi's. Oh and by the way thanks for admitting you started a new thread, These are the words you used, Sorry to start a new thread, but the old one is closed. Ah the cue is in the words NEW THREAD. Have a nice evening Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM I never heard that the republicans disbanded in July 05. How about this quote from 8th October, message 1578840 And we did a lot more than plant bombs in litter bins. And I am very proud of the work our boys did.And no I am no idle boaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:01 PM That last was in reply to this from Eric The Red I notice that 'Div ' Sweeney always uses the collective ' we ' or inclusive ' our ' is he really one of them ? or just another idle boaster ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM Yes Keith all collective groups which Republicans were involved in besides Sinn Fein were disbanded in July 05 at their own request. Not all of these groups were considered illegal. Yes we did do a lot more than plant bombs in litter bins as was said. We developed Irish language classes, Irish Historial societies, Irish Music classes and prisoners aid centres. Yes I am very proud of our boys, just as you are proud of yours Keith. And no Keith I am not a boaster I worked hard for the cause of our people. Oh first signs of losing it is when you have to bring other people into it as you did above. Have a nice evening Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: GUEST,A1 Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM Keith you really don't have to lay into the guy so much, think he said it's all over a few times. What's your point ? Dislike of him or the guys who once existed in the I.R.A.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM It's okay A1. At a loss myself sometimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 19 Feb 06 - 05:53 PM I am SHOCKED and AMAZED to see another thread get turned around and get off track. Wait, no I'm not. So, what's new in the world of the British soldier video? E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:08 PM Oh by the way Keith you referred to a post I made on 18th September claiming to take life ? Please produce this non existant post. I NEVER MADE ANY POST ON THE 18TH OF SEPTEMBER. WOULD BE GRATEFUL IF MEMBERS WOULD CHECK THIS AND SEE THIS GUY FOR THE LAIR HE HAS JUST PROVEN HIMSELF TO BE ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:38 AM Here is a link to all Divis Sweeney's early posts. I am not a liar. Why do I persist. It is legitimate to object to a criticism on grounds of hypocrisy. I was just pointing out that he used to admit what he now denies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 03:24 AM This link shows I made NO POST on the 18th September as you stated. This link also shows I never at any time stated I took human life. So the only conclusion one can come up with is that you are a LIAR. Case proven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 03:44 AM It shows that you made 5 posts on that day. The first of them is the one in question. Surely you remember attempting to justify/explain it away recently. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 03:46 AM Joe Offer, Please do not close thread on grounds of DS calling me names. I take no offence and it harms him more than me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 05:40 AM With the exception of anyone who had a lobotomy there is no where in any post anyone will see I stated I murdered anyone. So I made 5 posts on the 18th of September ? Where are they Keith ? Big difference in calling you a liar, which you have clearly proven to be and a clear case of deformation of character. Very poor attempts on this thread as usual to discredit me. Failure on your behalf yet again. Oh Keith when will you learn ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 05:49 AM I am not sure what to say Seamus. I have given the link, scroll down to the date. Also, look at the preceding posts for the context of your posts.. It was IRA not republicanism being discussed. Anyway, why do you now need to deny your membership. Are you ashamed of it? No need to be. As you say, it's all history now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Feb 06 - 05:58 AM Chaps, can you discuss the IRA somewhere else please? The issues about that are I think detracting from the issue of this thread. England first invaded Ireland 400 years ago-ish, or even earlier, and the issues about whether there was a conquest legitimating a claim under usual constitutional law principles to rule by right of conquest (which would make the 1920-ish events a rebellion (conceded to by the Government of Ireland Act (that citation is from memory so may be wrong)) , and the IRA unlawful rebels at best) or whether there was never a true conquest in which case the IRA are a legitimate resistance, at least in some of what they do, are rather different from the present occupation (if that is the word) of Iraq. Nor do I think Iraq's position is illustrated by considering the Bill of Rights 1688 (the aftermath of the last revolution in England) or the Act of Union! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 07:34 AM Well said Richard. Keith sadly always moves away from the threads he starts. Example above. He started a thread here which had nothing to do with Ireland. He then moved on to calling me a murderer. He then said without any proof that I admitted it on the 18th September ! Which of course no proof has been produced by him. Proof here to see that I never posted on the 18th September ! Then after I told him seventeen times it's all history now what occurred in Ireland he now finally admitted it's history now in his last posting ! If you make such a strong statement as he did last night. One would except him to provide his proof ! He really has come off this one with egg on his face ! Ah poor Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 07:47 AM http://www.mudcat.org/usersearch.cfm?who=GUEST%2CDivis%20Sweeney Here is the link again Seamus. Ask someone to help you click and scroll to 18th Sept. 05 Can anyone else explain it to Seamus? I just can not get him to see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:08 AM Where does it say I murdered anyone ??????????????????????????? Admit your wrong Keith and say a big big sorry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:17 AM Oh Keith bye the way please note any posts of that period was by a guest Divis Sweeney. Not the member Divis Sweeney. No doubt this was you signing in under this name to blame me. Dear Dear that was so low. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:58 AM Of course. Now I understand. Even though you have already tried to explain those posts, they were not by you at all. All I had to do was travel back in time, log on under your name, travel back to the present and... How can any of us believe anything you say now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:39 AM As I was not a member at that stage as you can see. GUEST Divis Sweeney. Anyone could have come in under that title. In a lot of cases you. Hope this is easier to understand. If not an elementary version is available. Please note Keith regarding you comment about logging in under my name. Are you not aware anyone who comes here as GUEST does not have to log in ? Oh but sure you are already aware of that, sorry. Best wishes Seamus. Now back to the thread YOU started about British soldiers caught kicking lumps out of Iraqi's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 10:07 AM Here is a post from Epona. Divis, I'm never helping you again! When I helped you register so you wouldn't be a guest anymore, you're info got stuck in my computer and now all my posts are under your new name! AND, then I had to reregister my own name with the Cat. I hope you appreciate all this drama because I'm angry right now!!!! Sorry folks (folkies :) ). I'm back now. And I'm not doing anymore good deeds. Haha.... E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Feb 06 - 10:37 AM Well Divis, I think you are a bit inclined to jump on the bash the squaddie bandwagon, and I was not taking sides on that (here, I might elsewhere), so please, that was not an invitation to blame Keith, nor one to blame you but to ask both of you to discuss that elsewhere unless relevant. The interesting development today is the Iraq government saying it knows who threw the grenades, that they were 2 of the captives seen in the video, that they are married with children (so perhaps not mere striplings), and that they intend to lift them and try them for attempted murder - the consequence of which (I understand from other commentators) under Iraq law is likely to be worse than what happened to them at the hands of the UK troops. So, interestingly, none of those primarily involved will have benefitted from the release of the material, and if the other captives turn out to have been (as I understand) actively complicit in throwing the grenades, all will have suffered. So, again, were we right (those of us who did) to rush to express outrage at what the troops did? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:55 AM I agree this thread has becoming boring for me let alone anyone else reading it. He's had his his fling and will probably drift to another. Regarding the original thread. Strange how a recording of an Iraqi attack on Britisg troops has only come to the public eye now. That developement is a convenient resolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:55 AM I half heard that this morning Richard, but thought I must have got it wrong. All the Southern areas are still refusing to work with the Brits because the video. Sorry I got bogged down over Divis Sweeney,but I thought it important to bring his deceit and hypocricy into the open. Done now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:34 PM You neither got your audience Keith nor proved any point. All you did was call someone a murderer without proof and made a fool out of yourself in the process. Also exposed yourself as the person entering under my GUEST Divis Sweeney name prior to my membership. Well at least you appeared graceloiusly defendant in defeat.
So quite your squabbling, already. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:30 PM That's interesting RB. We don't hear any updates over here because our media doesn't really cover anything that's international unless they think it involves us directly. Apparently, the British soldier video didn't make the cut, so I'm trying to track it through the BBC. Thanks for the latest. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Gurney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM Will Keith and Divis please stop (figuratively) sniping at each other. I'm sure we have all formed an opinion of the liklihood of the matter being settled to anyone's satisfaction, and it's getting repetitive. Pretty please, guys? Before this thread gets closed too? It doesn't do anyone any good when we force JoeClones to exercise power, well-balanced though they seem. I would like to know the date of the video, though.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 07:07 PM Dear Gurney Almost afraid to come back on here. Video released a week ago yesterday. Was taken two years ago. Best wishes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Feb 06 - 07:08 PM 2004 is the only date being given so far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Feb 06 - 07:11 PM Goodnight Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:42 AM Thanks for that Joe. The most chilling of the 18th Sept posts, the one about killing by sniping, was acknowledged and appologised for by MEMBER Divis Sweeney on the 13th October 05 in thread "PIRA invests in Manchester" in message 1582124. He wrote about it My reaction to his remark as to what he did to the Irish, was anger, and I made that remark in return. Since then, and before denying ever saying it, he made it into a crude little story, funny if the context were not the deaths of young men backshot because they wore a uniform. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:51 AM Will take the advice of all your pm's. Many thanks to those members for taking the time. Waken me up when Keith has gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Divis Sweeney Date: 21 Feb 06 - 05:16 AM Just read a fasinating artical in my medical journal. It's about a condition known as Impulsive Repetitive Speech Disorder. Symptoms, The individual becomes repetitive in content of speech, fails to accept logic and enters in a tangent. Most interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Bunnahabhain Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:17 AM Divis, Keith, from your love of talking about the past, we could hope you're both more than five. So stop acting as if you're a pair of children, talk via PMs etc, and come back when you calmed down. Also "But he started it... " is not a valid arguement! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Epona Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:46 AM Perseveration. It's seen often in autisitc children. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:22 AM The news of US systematic torture (and Mr Justice Collins recent finding that the US definition of torture is different from that of most civilised countries) tend I think to put this in perspective too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brit soldiers video From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:50 AM Yes. It was not right, but as peacekeeping forces go you could do a lot worse. (I am sorry that I went on about Divis Sweeney's motivation, and that I became obsessed with exposing his change of line.) |
