Sitting At The Kitchen Table

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

now that that is out of the way, Rapaire, we have the trumpet in common! I find myself sitting sometimes listening to a trumpet and looking down to find my right hand playing all the correct fingerings!   I love the trumpet and actually worked my way through college gigging in dance bands on trumpet. I played blackfaced minstral shows in the mid sixties and lots of dixieland also. I played French horn in college and studied with Samuel Ramsey in Silver Spring, Ron, who played in the Baltimore Symphony as well as a lot of Orchestral stuff around DC area.

I never felt I was very good on French Horn, however. It is an extremely difficult instrument to master as the harmonics are in a wierd place on the register of the horn so all the fingerings for treble clef area are a couple harmonics higher on trumpet and thus the amount of alternate fingerings and close harmonies makes it a difficult instrument to master.

We just rehearsed for an upcoming gig that wants a couple hours of music and my group is getting lazier all the time whern it comes to getting together to rehearse! It is frustrating to me, but we got through 24 songs tonight so a couple more run-thrus should get us reasonably ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:01 AM

Jimmy--

I know what you're talking about re: convincing people it's important to rehearse. As I said earlier, I had a sea chantey group, of 7 people. One year I couldn't convince them to rehearse even once, for our only gig. But it turned out it didn't make any difference--the gig went fine anyway--somewhat undercut my argument.   But sea chanteys are definitely a genre where you can leave some rough edges on.

Then over the weekend I saw a skiffle band of 12 people who also had never once rehearsed some of the songs they did (as a group). But again we (the crowd) just thought it added to their ramshackle charm. And I know they had done some of the songs before--just not that exact group.

On the other hand, man o man have we had a lot of Mahler rehearsals--last one tonight--then 3 performances (Mahler's 8th).

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:45 AM

I think you have to find the point where practice and performance balance. You can over-rehearse, just as you can under-practice. (Rehearse: to ride in a hearse again?) I've been to performances which were over-practiced and they were wooden and "dead." That balance point can be elusive!

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM

I have to say I've rarely seen a performance so over-rehearsed as to be wooden (nor have I ever been in one--(as far as I know--admittedly I'm not an unbiased observer.) I've always felt we could have used more rehearsal--in virtually every concert. The Christmas concerts by Choral Arts in particular are amazing--we sometimes get new music 2 rehearsals before the concert. Now however I've been in the group long enough that even new music at Christmas is often music we did a few eons ago.

The Mahler is definitely one which needed all the rehearsals we had. Just figuring out which line to sing was sometimes a challenge to start with--there are 2 separate choruses plus a childrens' choir and soloists--and Mahler sometimes, for instance had the basses-- or basses from one chorus but not the other--drop out and come back in pages later. Then there are also divisions between 2 balcony choruses and a stage chorus. And we had to cut through a massive orchestra--loaded with brass. Fortunately the conductor immediately realized that--and told the orchestra to not assume that his expansive gestures --so all the singers could follow him from anywhere in the hall they were stationed--meant the orchestra should pump up volume. Mahler is very clear about which voices should predominate at a given time--and when the orchestra can come crashing through.

Evidently at the first performance there were 600 kids in the childrens' choir--that gave them a good start towards 1,000--and they did have over 1,000. So it's called the Symphony of 1,000. But we'll only have about 500--Jan says that's against the Trades Description Act (in the US, Truth in Advertising).

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:29 PM

Symphony of 1000/2 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM

Good live music is everywhere these days. I was coming out of the Foggy Bottom metro stop yesterday on my way to the Kennedy Center to sing the second of the 3 Mahler concerts when I heard a a lusty 4-part harmony version of "Battle Cry of Freedom". It was a group of about 20 young people--probably college age, belting it out. I stood there in my tuxedo beaming at them--and mouthing the words. They had all 4 or 5 verses memorized. Very impressive. Ethnically mixed--black, white, oriental,, Hispanic. Virtually a model for the UN. They beckoned me up to join them.

Nobody else was even stopping to hear them.

Then one of their number (not singing) came up and handed me a brochure about Lyndon La Rouche's crackpot latest wild-eyed conspiracy theory---this time, " Rohatyn: The French-Nazi Connection." And I knew there was no way I'd sing with them.   He wanted to talk to me--so I shushed him--told him I wanted to hear the singing.

So I told them the truth--that I had a concert to sing in about an hour and had to get to the Kennedy Center. Could they sing another one?

They did--they said it was a German piece--didn't sound German to me--couldn't pick out any German words--and I speak German somewhat--2 years in Germany---and I'd never heard it.

But it sounded good.

So as I left, I told them I may not agree with them politically---but they sounded great.

Nothing like good live music.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:42 PM

The International Choral Festival is coming to Pocatello this summer. Choirs from around the world will perform. Last time a choir from Estonia performed at the Library, and I'm trying to be a venue again this year.

See here for more info. (And come if you can -- it's worth it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:03 PM

Rapaire--


Sounds great! When is it? Jan and I would love to come out West and see a choral festival. I couldn't tell from the link what the schedule actually was.

It turns out Chorus America is having some sort of convention in DC this week--and there were about 600 choral directors at our Friday Mahler concert. We got standing ovations every night--so they must have liked it on Friday.

Tomorrow I'll be singing bluegrass and country at the Deer Creek Fiddlers' Convention--and playing bluegrass viola--which consists of making up the harmony as you go along (which I can do on slow songs)--or throwing in a break.

Really looking forward to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM

I'll hear on Monday if we're a venue and when it is. Usually in August, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:18 PM

Hey!

Thanks for keeping the kettle on. It's great to be back, and I just finished reading all the posts since I left. I must say, I didn't expect you guys to get so horny...

I haven't even unpacked yet, so I probably won't talk too much tonight. But, we had a great, great time... did a concert for Mom for her birthday for her and the Assisted Living Gang, enjoyed all of her other birthday celebrations, spent some joyful time with my youngest son who we hadn't seen in a year.. went to Old Wisconsin.. a large scale historic reconstruction of several early Wisconsin ethnic communities, and, and, and, and..

Got some interesting things I want to talk about but I must admit, it was a real pleasure to read all of the posts with me not here...

Glad to be be back...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

Glad you're back, Jerry. The talk was interesting while you were gone ("horny", indeed!) but we missed the voice from your corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 10:57 PM

Today's weather reminded me of just how different our climate - and our perceptions and expectations - are from that of most of the country.

It was very warm today. I walked home seven blocks (uphill all the way) and as long as I stayed on the shady side of the street I was OK but did not loiter in the sunny spots. In Juneau one does not often sweat but today was one of those days.

We had a high of 73 degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:09 PM

Hi Ebbie--

Your high was about the same as ours today (DC area)--and we were really happy to have it. We have been incredibly lucky so far this spring--got a real spring--not just early spring segueing into midsummer about mid-May----as has happened before. I don't think it ever hit 90 in May this year--and it usually does.

Jerry--

Hope you can tell us about your trip soon--I'm especially interested in the old Wisconsin ethnic communities--I bet one of them was German--right?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:28 PM

Hi, Ron:

Old Wisconsin is the largest historic restoration museum in the country, I believe. Unlike most Historical Museums, it primarily represents small farms. Each small farm is separated by enough distance to that they feel isolated. You can either walk from farm to farm if you're adventurous, or catch a free tram that runs about every fifteen minutes. All in all there are 8 or nine ethnic communities represented. Because it is so spread out, and we could only spend a couple of hours there, we ended up seeing only a small portion of the farms. The German farm was one of the more complete, with several buildings. There is also a Danish farm (which we wanted to visit because of my heritage... my Grandparents were both born and raised in Denmark.) The most recent addition is an African American community. Not many people realize that there were freed slaves living in Wisconsin. There were two active communities, and blacks and whites got along reasonably well together.

All the buildings on the property (with one exception which was built from old photographs as an exact copy) are from Wisconsin and were transported to the site.

Like most historic restorations, there are workers in costume, doing chores, gardening and caring for livestock, as well as preparing food and makign crafts. Having been to umpty-billion historic restorations, and being Director of a Museum with an early New England farm for many years, it long ago ceased to be a novelty seeing eartly American resorations. The thing I found most different about Old Wisconsin is how distinctive the architecture was. I'm used to Sturbridge Village, Mystic, Hancock Shaker Village, Colonial Williamsburg, Plymoth plantation and the like where the architect is somewhat the same. I found the styles dramatically different at Old Wisconsin, and that made our time there more interesting for me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:19 AM

All is well... glad to be back, sitting at the table. I see that Elmer is back too, from his latest hunting exposition. I'm still enjoying the time I had with my Mother and family. Made me think about how young some old folks are, and the reverse. My Mother is feeling mildly irritated because she hasn't learned to use a computer. She probably felt that way the first time she turned on an electric light. When I did a concert for the folks in Assisted Living, she asked me to do a song that I wrote about her and her family when she was a little girl. I hadn't sung the song in at least ten years... probably closer to twenty. I never thought it was a particularly good song, but when your Mom asks you to do something, you'd better do it.

Starts out:

Throw all the kids in the old hay wagon, and point the horse to town
The stones are loaded on the wagon floor and the blankets all turned down
The night is cold and the moon is full, and the horse he knows the way
And it won't be long 'till we get to town, and we all can hardly wait.

CHORUS:

And over in the corner, there's a fiddler, and the kids will all want to dance
And though Mom says "no," you know she'll go, if you give her just half a chance.

My Mother's Mother was actually a very strict "hard-shell" Baptist who thought that dancing and card playing was a sin. As I introduced the song, I said that my Grandmother never danced in her life, but she danced up a storm in the song.

"And when he swung her 'round the room, you could hear those floor boards creak.
And you'd swear she's having so much fun, it will last her for a week."

I never knew my Mother's Mother, as she died when my Mother was 13.   But, she's remembered in songs. "And the bible my Grandmother bought her last Christmas, that she gave to my Mother, now she's passed it on."

Good to think of the old times...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

Hi Jerry--

Thanks for the information about the old ethnic communities. Do you think the architecture was in imitation of the Old Country? (be it Germany or Denmark).

A great book I have read (Albion's Seed, by David Hackett Fischer) had the thesis that early British settlements in North America were made in large part by specific areas of Britain--New England being colonized primarily by settlers from East Anglia--as indicated by similar attitudes toward authority, toward education, toward religion,--as well as similar food, games, many of the same names of towns--including Dedham, Cambridge, and Boston--------and architecture.

He also draws similar parallels in the mid-Atlantic colonies, the South, and Appalachia.

A fascinating thesis--and very persuasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:38 PM

And probably true. Only it falls apart (except for certain instances) as you move West. Sure, there were pockets of ethnic and nationalistic influence -- Bishop Hill, Illinois for instance -- but they quickly became "assimulated" into the dominant, eclectic, culture. This can be shown by the words those in US used in the past and still use today: Okay, calaboose, lariat, dally, sauerkraut, rendevous, cache, to name but a very, very few. Simply looking at the local phone book demonstrates the ethnic and national diversity of this small city, with names like Schmidt (German), Martinez (Mexican), Smith (English), Jones (Welsh), Flowers (originally French), Homan (I don't know), Kasilimetes (Greek), Suenaga (Japanese), Gabiola (Basque) and many, many more. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the Indians who were already here!

The United States is not so much a melting pot as it is a stew, with each ingredient enhancing the other ingredients.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:30 PM

There certainly have been conclaves of ethnic groups in this country. There were many in Wisconsin. My brother-in-law is Polish and comes from Milwaukee, which had (and has) a very high concentration of Poles and Germans. When early rock and roll was sweeping the country, the top ten selling records in Milwaukee usually included at least two or three by Louis Bishell and His Silk Umbrellas. A friend of mine taught school in Neenah-Menasha in Northern Wisconsin and most of the kids in his class had Polish names that were almost impossible to pronounce.

One of the best folk festivals I've been a part of was the North Country Folk Festival in the upper penninsula of Michigan. They involved all the local old European immigrant communities in presenting traditional music dance, dress and food from their native countries. I spent a weekend eating food I'd never heard of before (or since.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:40 PM

Much of it I suspect had to do with work. You wouldn't think to find a fairly large (percentage-wise) population of both Japanese and Greek ancestries in Idaho, but they were and are here. The Japanese came in the 19th Century to work on the railroad, and the Greeks were brought over in the 19th Century to work in mines in Utah; when the mines played out they too came to work on the railroad. Unlike the Irish and the Chinese, neither of these groups are usually thought of as railroad builders. Thus for many years Pocatello has had a Greek Orthodox church (it's on the National Register).

Likewise, Butte, Montana has the highest per-capita population of Irish ancestry in the US. They came to work the mines there. Many people of Finnish and Welsh ancestry went the to UP of Michigan and Northern Wisconsin to work the mines and in lumbering.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:50 AM

Fischer's only allegation is that the original English settlements on the East of North America (in what became the 13 original colonies) were settled in this way. He does not claim the same thing obtains as you move West.

In fact, tracing the ancestry of presidents, he finds that the majority come from only one background--the Borderers (border of Scotland and England) --who have an exaggerated sense of honor, place much emphasis on the extended family, place not much value on education, and believe in solving problems with violence. George Macdonald Fraser makes a similar point on the first page of Steel Bonnets--at the inauguration of NIxon--with Johnson and Graham in attendance--representatives of 3 of the roughest Border families.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:42 AM

The premise isn't all that unbelievable. In some ways, it seems like Catters have settled into their own communities in here.

Birds of a feather flock.

Jerry

Wow! Two posts before midnight!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:46 AM

Yes, it probably does work for the East and the South. And it would work for the American Southwest and California, up to the point when settlers from the US moved in.

You can still see it in the architecture of "Mormon" settlements and today in places like Phoenix, Arizona where retirees and emigrants from the East replace the native vegetation with things they are familiar with -- and allegeries to the pollen of which many of them left the East to alleviate!

We like that with which we are familiar, whether it's appropriate to where we are or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:23 PM

and btw - happy birthday jerry!

8-D !!

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:13 PM

Gee, Jerry--we get a chance to wish you happy birthday on 2 threads. You deserve it on all the threads. Welcome back--hope you can tell we missed you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM

It's great to be back, Ron: I'm feeling very enthusiastic this evening because I'm going to attend practice of another male chorus, looking for new Messengers. The Director is a friend of mine who just took over the Chorus and he thinks there are a few guys there who would be fine. Being a trio these days, with one member trying to deal with a lot of other pressures makes me feel vulnerable. As my friend Joe says, when we talk about the possibility of losing our third member at some point, "One monkey don't stop the show." But, I'm running out of monkeys. If that happens, we'll be down to two monkeys.

So, in a couple of weeks, I'll be out scouting for new monkeys...

Sounds exciting..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:30 PM

Happy Birthday to one of a kind!   jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:12 AM

Thanks all for the birthday greetings. So far, as anticipated, today is even better. I must be older, but wiser.

This is a burning CD day. I have a big backlog of CDs I've promised to people, and I seem to be in low gear, so I'm just enjoying burning, and then listening to the music after I've copied it. Listening to a Carmen McRae CD at the moment which will be going out to the Mother of one of my favorite Catters.

I like these slow days.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM

I cranked up the CD player and have been listening to the smokin' CDs Jerry sent (I guess that's what happens when you burn 'em huh?) and gonna bop till I drop to doo-wop--and jazz, righteous solo Jerry and also the Gospel Messengers.

I also recently found a great new (to me) CD called "Fathers and Sons" with Chicago blues "fathers" Muddy Waters and Otis Spann playing with "sons" Mike Bloomfield, Paul Butterfield, Sam Lay and Buddy Miles. It's sum good.

I've been wondering: How come some cultures have lots of singing, but no tradition of harmony singing? Anyone have any ideas?

Elmer

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:03 PM

Funny thing, Elmer, but there are a lot of folkies (or at least there were in the 60's) who discourage harmony singing. For a variety of reasons, none of which I really know. The folk scene (at least in Greenwich Village) was pretty much a solo thing, with some notable exceptions. I tended to be in that mode, myself as I did mostly traditional music with very few choruses. When I moved away from the Village scene, I started writing a lot of songs with choruses... most of my songs have choruses, and realized what a kick it is to hear people singing along. I was never into the Follow The Bouncing Ball approach to singing (although I remember cartoons that encouraged just that, when I was a kid.)

I've seen just the opposite environemtn in folk festivals and folk song societies, where singing along on choruses is encouraged. Some time, I'll pass along my observations on folkies singing along on black gospel... a humourous difference in approach.

Interesting subject, anyway.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:42 PM

I understand that singing in choruses in folk music is quite a recent development in the UK, for instance. There certainly is a long tradition of harmony singing in classical choral music. Then I suppose there are cross-over genres, as it were--like Sacred Harp in the US and West Gallery singing in the UK. West Gallery singing, I understand did sometimes combine tunes from the pub (actually I think the tune from Rosin the Beau--I think that's how they spell it)--is used in Sacred Harp)--but West Gallery singing uses more pub tunes. The west gallery in the church was where the hired choir members sat--who sometimes slipped out to the pub during the sermon. At least that's what I've heard.

Anybody from the UK who can confirm, deny or otherwise elucidate this topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:38 AM

Singing choruses may have been associated with heavy work (like shanties) or military (marching songs) or sometimes propaganda (esp. in non-democratic countries) - and maybe people didn`t want to be reminded of it....
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:51 AM

Interresting point, Ernest. Glad you stopped by. Harmony singing has been used to bring people together, whether it's in church, in war, at work or for political reasons. Over here, folk music in the 60's became predominantly protest music. Many years ago, during the days when I was bookly a folk concert series, I booked a bluegrass band. The audience was almost completely different from my usual one, and when I asked the audience to stop by as they were leaving and comment on why they never came to the folk concert, the two most memorable statements were that they didn't want to sit around all night listening to someone sing protest songs, and that folk music was for intellectuals and bluegrass was for working people. The first statement was much truer in the 60's, and ironically there is a lot of truth to the second statement. Maybe I'll start a thread about that... should stir up some interesting responses...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 07:59 AM

"folk music was for intellectuals and bluegrass was for working people. " I've never heard anyone say that before jerry, very interesting. whatever, I love both.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:19 AM

Probably because it was collected and preserved by "intellectuals": the Library of Congress, the Child books, and so on. Then in the '50s and '60s it was popular with young people, many of whom were in college -- and the US has long had a love/hate relation with higher education. The whole thing is ironic because folk music came originally from the people themselves.

Bluegrass is just one of the variants of the music played by the folks, but it doesn't have "intellectual" and "education" splashed all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:42 AM

Freda: maybe people like you and me are working intellectuals... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: billybob
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM

Happy Birthday Jerry,
Reading the last few days conversations, we live in East Anglia a few miles from Dedham and also near Harwich where the captain of the Mayflower lived, his house is still standing.
In a little village called Grotton near Lavenham there is a lovely little church out on its own in the fields, the church has always been very popular with visitors from Massachusetts as the Winthrop family went from Grotton to the USA and I believe Winthrop was the first Gov. of Mass.
I believe many of the people on the Mayflower were from East Angia as it sailed from Ipswich in Suffolk before going on to Plymouth.
Certainly looking at the east coast of the US there are very many familiar town names from this part of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:34 PM

I love harmonies, and I suspect that even when a song is sung in unison our ears and brains pick up the harmonies surrounding each single note.

I grew up Amish. Congregatinal singing in the Amish church is in unison and yet one of my fondest memories is of listening to the rise and fall of their songs; the tones ranged from bass voices up to the silver sounds of female voices, making a dense river that flowed over rocks and around bends and down the occasional waterfalls, rough here and smooth there...

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:50 PM

Incidentally, these songs were German lieder. To this day I love opera, especially if I don't know the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 05:35 PM

I was musing about various Asian singing traditions, which, to my knowledge, don't include harmony singing. That's what got me started on this question. In some cultures people sang together, or in call and return, or in note combinations that sound atonal to western ears, but not in harmony. Harmony seems like such a simple concept and it is so pleasing to the ear that I'm wondering why it didn't take hold universally. I'm not anywhere near being an expert on musicology or music history, so I thought some of y'all who know lots more than me might have some thoughts or knowledge.

elmer

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:35 PM

Different cultures, different ways of seeing, hearing, and believing. Are the sounds of nature harmonious?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:01 PM

Well, following that reasoning, there are a lot of sounds that humans make unlike any found elsewhere in nature. (I could make a crack about certain politicians, but I won't.) But maybe it's just as uncomplicated as you say, Rapaire: different strokes for different folks.

E.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:17 AM

Ebbie--

When you say the Amish songs were German lieder, do you mean they used the melodies from the lieder but changed the words--since lieder are often about--what else--romantic problems?

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:00 AM

Not in the way we used the word, Ron. We used it in the sense of a hymn as in das geistliche Lied. Lieder,. to us, were basically church songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 05:52 PM

So, Ebbie, did you grow up speaking German--or a form of it? Did they speak it at church services? It's amazing the number of people who don't know that Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM

Probably platt deutsch and not hoch deutsch.

I was in a store in Amish country once (this is the first time since 1971 that I have NOT worked in Amish country) with my wife and a friend. The friend was quite fluent in German, and she later regaled us with what the Amish "girls" (not yet churched) were saying. She was especially tickled when one of them made a comment about her and she answered in German -- the young lady was embarassed! (Never use a language that is not your own for making comments about others!)

(The same sort of thing happened to the father of friend in Sneem, Ireland -- the man's home town. He was sitting in the pub, quietly having a pint or six, and he overheard a couple of locals talking about "the yank over there" in Gaelic. Well...I leave the rest of story to your imagination. Suffice to say that the man is very fluent in Irish....)

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:01 PM

It is definitely fun to do what your friend did, Rapaire. I even had the opportunity to do it--I had bought 20 Dutch Apple yogurts at the Super Giant (of course this is in the US). I love it--with cinnamon in the recipe. A little German girl behind me in line said to her mother (as I can recall) "Du, Mami, er hat 20 davon! (Mommy, he has 20 of those!)   So I turned to her and said "Stimmt". (That's right). She turned beet red.

There are lots of good reasons to speak more than one language--that's really a very minor reason--but fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:38 PM

It's funny how different cultures and congregations differ from each other. Where I grew up - in Oregon, in a small church - as soon as an English-speaking person came along we switched to English. Had we known the word 'gauche' that is what we would have thought it to not include them in the conversation.

Then when I was almost 14 my family moved to Virginia to a large Amish church. And there the 'jungen' spoke 'deutsch' as soon as English speakers appeared. (Strangely enough, a great many of the younger generation spoke English even at home to their parents; the parents spoke deutsch, they were answered in English. When my best friend eventually married and had 5 children they never taught deutsch to their kids. This friend and her husband left the Amish and went to a Conservative Mennonite church.)

Ron, your quote, as written, would literally be: "You, Mommmy. He has 20 of them." More likely she would have said the equivalent of 'See' or 'Look', Mommy. I can't find the German form of Look; we used so many idioms and colloquialisms that the 'hoch deutsch' sometimes gets lost. But the words we used was 'guk' (sp?), pronounced like 'look'.

At home we spoke the dialect- not Platt Deutsch. Platt is a separate dialect as is 'Schweitzer Deutsch'. My mother's family emigrated from the Alsace in the 1700s; my father's family from south Germany somewhat later.

One thing the Amish do is keep good records. My father's family is traced back to the 14th century when it was spelled differently but still recognizably. Many books have been written with the material taken from the records of the 'old countries'. Most Amish - ex or not - have these books and I'm no exception.

My family spoke our German dialect at home until we started caring for foster children (of whom my parents adopted two); after that we all spoke English at all times. (And no, I didn't teach German to my daughter.)

We spoke the dialect but read the High German. Nowadays, because the dialect is an unwritten language, speaking High German is easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:50 PM

Ebbie, Uri Byler was someone I will always consider a good friend. Uri was also very probably the most intelligent person I've ever met -- and I've dined with Bucky Fuller, among others. Uri was the author of several books, and he testified in the Amish Schools case. He literally wrote the book(s) on Amish teaching, school rules, curriculum, and such stuff in Ohio. Another of his books was "Our Better Country," an American history for the Amish schools.

Anyway, this is a story I heard from another, and very reputable, friend named Frank, who was a long-time friend of Uri's.

Frank was sitting in a bar in Middlefield, Ohio, having a quiet beer at the bar when Uri walked in. Uri sat down, ordered a beer, and lit a cigarette. Then he turned to Frank and said, "Well, I suppose that this will be the last beer and cigarette I'll have for some time."

"Why, Uri? You have health problems?"

"No, no. They've just elected me bishop."

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:54 PM

Yippee! Jerry, my CDs from you came today! They're all in fine shape even though the the envelope looks like it was caught under a rubber tire, or maybe a conveyor belt. It shows that it was mailed on May 15 and it took until June 17 to get here. Now, that, I believe, is a record for me. The longest in the past, I think, was 11 days from Tulsa Oklahoma to here. I tell people that obviously the airplane wasn't full yet.

Anyway, I played the first one- The Gospel Messengers in Washington DC - three times before I got myself stopped. I love it. I love it. I've always loved black gospel music since I was a teenager in Virginia where black groups would sing in local white churches and everyone would flock to hear them.

One of my mortifying memories I have is of sneaking to the woods next to a black church and hunkering down so I could listen to the music inside. I can't imagine why I thought anyone would object.

I haven't listened to the 'Jerry Rasmussen Sampler' yet and am looking forward to it. I've got 'The Gospel in Black and White' on right now, and Roy Acuff is singing.

Jerry, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sitting At The Kitchen Table
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:01 PM

Hallelujah, Ebbie!!!!! One of the sled dogs must have stopped to have puppies. I'm glad they finally got to you, though.

Enjoy!

Maybe if I send you some for Christmas and mail them by Monday, you'll get them just in time...

Jerry