Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?

Subject: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:02 PM

Are there any Catters out there that might know the answer to this question please?:

The chorus for Cadgwith goes:
"As we rove through the valley,
Where the lilly and the roses,
and the beauty of Cadgwith lay drooping its head ..."

I've been told that the Beauty of Cadgwith is a wild flower but I can't find any reference to it online. I'd love to see what it looks like and for any information available please.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:03 PM

Sorry: There should be "Beauty of CASHMERE ..."

Rhiannon

Subject: Lyr ADD: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:21 PM

Artist: Steeleye Span
Song: Cadgwith Anthem
Album:
[" " CD]

Come fill up your glasses and let us be merry,
For to rob bags of plunder it is our intent.

Chorus
As we roam through the valleys
Where the lilies and the roses
And the beauty of Kashmir lay drooping his head
Then away, then away
To the caves in yonder mountain
Where the robbers retreat

Hush, hush in the distance there's footsteps approaching
Stand, stand and deliver it is our watch cry.

http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/452683.html

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM

PS...I just searched Cadgwith, then lyrics.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:25 PM

Thanks Sorcha. I have the lyrics - what I want is a description (or picture) of the flower.


Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:34 PM

Oh...
Try again

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

There are several plants that have Kashmirianus in their name, it just means 'coming from Kashmere'.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

There's a Kashmir Tree Mallow (lavatera family) and also a Kasmirian Sage. But probably lots of others too.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM

I was told it was an old rose variety.
Giok

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 04:17 AM

Rhiannon, I have always understood it to be a rose. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: rich-joy
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 04:30 AM

Someone, back in the mists of time, once told me that the "Beauty of Kashmir" was thought to be a "Rose of Sharon" - which is a kind of hibiscus-looking thing! - originating in India and East Asia, I believe ...
Not sure about it being a terribly "droopy" sort of flower, though?!


Well, where are all the Folkie botanists, then??!!


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 05:25 AM

So, it seems it's a rose then? I HATE singing about something I don't understand. It's a great song for singarounds incidentally as it's 80%+ chorus!

Thanks Catters for your valuable information.

Don't forget your pancakes on Tuesday.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: gnomad
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 06:58 AM

Rose of Sharon Info and picture another picture

Kashmir not mentioned, but originates in Asia/India, so the right area. A rose in name only.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:26 AM

I can't believe I am the first post

Himalayan Balsam

- anyone want to correct me?

conmsidered somewhat of a weed down in them there parts.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:32 AM

looks more like a snapdragon to me

http://www.shim.bc.ca/invasivespecies/_private/himalayan_balsam.htm

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:37 AM

Erm, am I missing something? I can't see the actual name of Beauty of Kashmir on these sites. Have I misread them or not followed a train of thought?

Help!

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:01 AM


thread has a few suggestions.

I see no connection with Cadgewith or Cornwall in any of the lines.

Then away,
Keith.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:04 AM

Woops!

thread

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:06 AM

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:08 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=73318#1277211

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 10:28 AM

as told to me - the flower referred to is more commonly known as Himalayan Balsam. But in the song and presumeably in Cornwall it has a colloquial name of "Beauty of Kashmir"

Look at the pictures and it does droop it's head at a certain time of the year as it goes to seed. The phrase "lay drooping it's head" is a specific date kind of referrence. Autumn - I would submit.

But I have no documentary evidence. I will ask Joy - the gardener - but she is no Folk scholar nor does she speak Kernak.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

Thanks everyone. The Cat does it again. It's a very beautiful orchid looking flower. At least I know what I'm singing about when I sing one of my favourite songs.

Incidentally I was stranded in hospital in Cornwall a few years ago and was surprised to find that the song was unknown to the good Cornish folk in the ward. By the time I left I'd taught it to quite a few.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

Hello,

My understanding is that the "The Beauty of Kashmir" is the Rhododendron. Remember that during the Victorian era many, many plants were imported from all over the world and 'just regular folk' could even get a few of them. "The Beauty of Kashmir" became a nickname of sorts because it was so much admired.

Cheers,

Bert Blue

Pipe Major Albert Insley Blue
bagpipes, that's my bag
http://www.ScotsPiper.com
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:02 PM

Thanks for that, Bert. I think the flower was identified as a type of orchid though.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:17 PM

Never mind the flower, it's a beautiful song!
I hope when it is sung it is sung properly, not the way that Artisan poularised it(the chorus having been extended.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: breezy
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:22 AM

Its to be found on the cornish bogs.

A smuggling song

Sang at pace in Cadgwith but slower everywhere else

Pitch yer own key

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:51 AM

British Rhododendron ponticum (that's the commonly seen purple one) originates from Spanish and Portuguese introductions, but;

From the site 'Henning's Rhododendron history':~

In 1849 and 1850 Sir Joseph Hooker's expedition to Sikkim in the eastern Himalayas discovered forty-five new species including the yellow-flowered R. campylocarpum and R. wightii; the red-flowered R. thomsonii; the small trees, R. falconeri, R. grande, and R. hodgsonii, with their enormous leaves; the epiphytes, R. dalhousiae and R. maddenii; the large vigorous R. griffithianum with massive white flowers; and the interesting R. triflorum, R. edgeworthii, R. fulgens, R. niveum, R. wallichii, R. lanatum, R. glaucophyllum, R. cinnabarinum, and R. lepidotum. Booth found R. hookeri and R. nuttalli in Bhutan in 1852. Planchon found R. simsii in 1854.

Sikkim is just north of Darjeeling, a bit further south than the Kashmir vale, but is also part of the Himalayian range. Kashmir is closer to the Pakistan border.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:03 AM

So far as I can tell, the only version of this song ever to surface is that collected in Cadgwith. The Roud index bears me out on this. It doesn't sound 'folky' to me but more like a piece written for a choir which has then gone into oral tradition. Anyone else know anything about the origins? Curiously, the people of Cadgwith don't sing 'Beauty of Kashmir' but 'Beautiful Kashmir'. Are we talking rugs here?!

Also, I think any discussion about whether it's a flower and what the flower 'really' is is a waste of time. No-one knows what the song is about and there is no point in speculating that the 'truth is out there'.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:31 AM

Some years ago I was in hospital in Cornwall and met a couple from Cadgwith - they had never heard of the anthem at all!

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM

Sure that's the only Cadgwith in the country?

LTS

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:57 AM

Yep - according to Autoroute, anyway.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:13 AM

Don't believe everything Autoroute tells you.... it sent Manitas to the opposite side of London when he was looking for a particular road... it's a very long road and Autoroute sent him the wrong way over the Polish War Memorial roundabout.... we'd've ended up in Richmond if I hadn't known where we were supposed to be - totally the opposite direction!

LTS

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

As a result of the notion of writing a 'local' song...The Cadgwith Anthem was written in the 1950's by a group of fishermen from Cadgwith in Cornwall...They do actually sing the 'Beauty of Cashmere' which I understood to be a rose but there seems to be some doubt cast in this thread....also not as someone suggested the beautiful Kashmir. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,daystar
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Hi
The song was written for music type thing also the beauty of Kashmir was linked to the name of a horse mind you it could all be just a cornish tail?

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

Thanks, Georgiansilver for shedding some light on the origins of the song. However, the CD I have of the people of Cadgwith singing the song definitely has them singing 'beautiful' in the chorus. Ah, well, it's only a syllable between friends.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:54 AM

That's what happens when you learn the song aurally... and how some of the best mondegreens are perpetuated.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Guest,Longdave
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:18 AM

Talking of mondegreens,when we sung this song at Hartley morris stands I'm sure we sung " and the Beauty of Cashmere lay grooming his hair!(Well I did)

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:57 AM

My wife and I had always puzzled over this line, and when we were lucky enough to take a holiday over twenty years ago in Kashmir (it was safe to go then - it's such a tragedy what's happened since) we thought we might have the opportunity to find out a definitive answer. Dal Lake in those days was frequented by exotically-named travelling salesmen (the tailor, for instance, was "Mr. Saville Row")who used to sail by and call at our rented houseboat with various wares. One was a flower and plant seller, called "Mr. Wonderful", and my wife asked him whether he had anything on his boat called "Beauty of Kashmir". After a fleeting look of complete bafflement he quickly recovered his poise and, nodding and grinning excitedly, explained that - yes - he had exactly what we were looking for. We treasured the small bulbs like rare birds' eggs for the rest of the holiday and during the homeward journey, planted them reverently in our garden and awiatied developments. They turned out to be grape hyacinths. Ah well. A fond memory, if perhaps unhelpful to this thread.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Trevor
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:26 AM

I'm interested in the couple of comments about the speed at which this should be sung.

Is the Steeleye version slower or quicker than Artisan's - I've only heard the former? We've been singing it and debating about the most effective treatment.

Also, how have Artisan extended the chorus?

Any other recordings that people have heard?

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:37 AM

I believe it to be Podophyllum peltatum L. known commonly as May apple or mandrake.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: redsnapper
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:02 AM

That would be American mandrake, not European mandrake, Mandragora officinarum.

But I withdraw my suggestion... too quick on the cross-reference in my flora!

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:10 AM

Trevor, in the "original" chorus "away" occupies eight syllables, but most people nowadays extend it to ten (1 for "a-" and the rest for "way")

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: BB
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

I have a tape of Charlie Bate singing this in the '60s, and the 'a-way' in the chorus is definitely eight syllables - the extending rise, other than as a harmony, came about, I think, from the Steeleye version. It now seems to have become part of the melody in folkie circles, usually screeched! I hate it!

My understanding of the 'Beauty of Kashmir' (or Cashmere) was that it was a rose, the flower of which was too heavy for its stem - thus 'drooping its head.' But it's all a matter of folklore.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

In Melbourne during the late 60s and early 70s "the 'a-way' in the chorus is definitely eight syllables" also applied. I have noticed that a good many great songs for harmony singing get slower and slower over the years, some to the extent that they become funereal. Pity.

Many thanks for the speciation discussion.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Abuwood
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:51 AM

We visitied Cadgwith and their Tuesday folk club last month.
I had been warned that visitors who take 10 a wayyys have to buy a round for the pub so was prepared only to do 8 as Snuffy suggests.
As we approached the pub there was a thatched cottage with roses around one side of the door and lillies around the other, reading the previous posts and suggestions that might be a rhodedendron in the front of my picture.
I asked them to sing the Anthem and they could not find anybody who knew it!!!!!!! (yes that type of 'folk' club').
They said the fisherman's choir sing it and they have the pub on Fridays if you are planning to go.
I was very disappointed but the Cornish folk redeemed themselves by singing it for me in Bodmin - they do sing Beauty of Cashmere - I thought it should have been Cadwith too, and only 8 for the aways.
Ali

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM

Trevor,

When we heard the the song sung in Cadgwith at a lifeboat benefit event, the speed of the chorus varied:

The 'then away, .....' lines were slow,
but the following 'In those caves in yonder mountains .....' were delivered at a brisk tempo.

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Trevor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM

Thanks for that. We've only got 8 'ways' in our version. I've heard it sung with the male voices having 8 syllables and the females the extra two (screeched!)

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: lewstep
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 05:08 AM

Has anybody considered that roses and lilies do not generally bloom in early spring when rhododendrons would be in flower. Hymalayan balsam does it for me

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: breezy
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

'And the beauty of Himalaya Balsam lays drooping its head'

tempting

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:05 PM

Where are the mountains in Cornwall?

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Ross
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:10 AM

It's a granite plateau but quite high in places

Around Bodmin in particular

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodmin_Moor

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: acegardener
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:34 AM

I would be more inclined to associate the beauty of Kashmir with the saffron producing crocus.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:41 AM

Kashmir Easy Elegance one of several varieties of rose which have Kashmir as part of their nomenclature.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 01:54 PM

"Beautiful Cashmere" in the earliest (1901) printed version that anyone has mentioned in Mudcat.
I, for no good reason, have always favoured the Himalayan balsam option, although I have not seen any nineteenth century source that backs that up.
What I did notice recently in a History of Hawick, was the fact that Himalayan balsam (along with giant hogweed) was introduced in the nineteenth century to the river Teviot by the processing of cashmere wool. The wool contained the seeds of those two plants which were washed out and subsequently naturalised themselves along the river. Given that the plants were new to the area, what would the locals have called them other than the beautiful cashmere plant and the other one?

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: doc.tom
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 02:44 PM

Fascinating creative interpretations in this thread - wonderful speculative folklore!

I can hardly believe this has come up again. The 'Beauty of Cashmere' was a Victorian variety of rose with a characteristic of a very heavy head which made it droop - or hang down (rather like Ena Harkness does). I don't know what they sing in Cadgwith, but Charlie Bate, Mervyn and the crew always sang 'Beauty of Cashmere' - on the other hand Tommy Morrisey and Charlie Pitman sang 'beautiful Kashmir'. Thus it changed within the same area within 15 years when there was no explanation by which to retain the original.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: Ged Fox
Date: 10 Feb 16 - 03:56 PM

Then please account for why the earliest known printed version was "beautiful cashmere," over half a century before Charlie Bate & company.

Also, in spite of the frequent assertion that "Beauty of Cashmere" was a Victorian rose, no-one, on Mudcat at least, has provided any evidence of that 'fact.' Do you have a nineteenth century catalogue or a nineteenth century description of a garden or hot-house in which such a rose was displayed?

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Haz
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 06:52 PM

Could it be a tulip? They were once Extremely valuable about the time the song was written? And they droop their heads

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST,Lady gardener
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:50 PM

I’ve long puzzled over this line, & have come to the conclusion that in searching for a flower I was barking up the wrong tree, so to speak. The flowers in the song are mentioned by name, but no blossoming plant corresponds to ‘beauty of Kashmir’. But what does correspond, in both growth & beauty, is a tree, the Kashmir cypress, with its graceful weeping habit. It would certainly be present on English estates by the time this song was written, & would no doubt be much admired.

Subject: RE: Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 11:40 AM

Since the verses are about robbers, and the Shah of Iran gave a breeding pair of Kashmiri Goats to Queen Victoria, from which was bred a large herd, which was split at least once to send some to The Great Orme, in Llandudno, I wonder if it was a hunted (or poached) Kashmiri goat which was referred to? The males are beautiful, and very long horned and could well be referred to as The Beauty of Kashmir (Cashmere). Also, the hunting fraternity was always keen for different 'sport', as they thought of it - and some
certainly took up goat hunting in Scotland. There are feral goats near Lynton in Devon, I wonder if one of the 'great houses' in Cornwall, might have acquired some Kashmiri goats, and used them for hunting, or had a prize specimen poached? (by these 'robbers')