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Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem)
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Subject: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 06 - 02:56 AM The Liverpool Philharmonic are having a lot of fun participating in the Surestart programme, teaching nursery rhymes to children and their parents. But in an interview on Radio 4, it was explained that they were not doing Baa Baa Black Sheep is it was about the slave trade, and cotton-picking in Virginia. And that people were offended by it. Now, I can well believe that people can claim to be offended by it: we have seen in recent months people having a go at Leadbelly's Pick a Bale of cotton and Black Betty. But how about this slave/cotton supposed "origin" of the rhyme? When and where was this bit of fakelore invented? Anybody spotted it before? |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:18 AM What crap. It's the "black" that has triggered the kneejerk. This has been done before; by local council gauleiters whose intention was (1) to appear to be doing something about racism, thereby disguising their own and (2) put everyone else on the back foot, implying that everyone- teachers and parents- are defending racism. Whoever took this decision at Liverpool Phil should be put inside a drum for an enthusiastic performance of the 1812, then given something useful to do, like a cleaning job. Now, when the Boy was 6, he came up with this variant: Baa baa black sheep, Have you any cotton? No sir, no sir, It's all gone rotten. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: John O'L Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:36 AM I've looked around the internet and can't find any reference to racial origins: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=b&p=10 Black sheep had wool that could not be dyed and was thus worthless. But one black sheep in a flock was considered good luck by shepherds in Sussex, Somerset, Kent, Derbyshire. Baa Baa Black Sheep nursery rhyme's first known publication is in "Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book" (c.1744). hhttp://www.shemrock.com/assets/funstuff/factoids/baa_baa_black_sheep.htm The poem traces its origin to the middle ages when poor peasants had to give one third of their income in taxes to the king (master) one third to the noblemen (dame) and one third was left for himself (little boy who lived down the lane) http://www.rhymes.org.uk/baa_baa_black_sheep.htm An historical connection for this rhyme has been suggested - a political satire said to refer to the Plantagenet King Richard III (the Master) and the the export tax imposed in Britain in 1275 in which the English Customs Statute authorised the king to collect a tax on all exports of wool in every port in the country. But our further research indicates another possible connection of this Nursery rhyme to English history relating to King Edward II (1307-1327). The best wool in Europe was produced in England but the cloth workers from Flanders, Bruges and Lille were better skilled in the complex finishing trades such as dying and fulling (cleansing, shrinking, and thickening the cloth). King Edward II encouraged Flemmish weavers and cloth dyers to improve the quality of the final English products. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:52 AM It's also worth pointing out that in 1744 slaves were mainly for the sugar plantations in the West Indies and tobacco in the American colonies. The little cotton used was from Egypt or India at that date, and American cotton only became the great driver of slavery after Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin in the 1790s. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:59 AM It does make one wonder why they can't consult an actual folklorist about such things... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,neovo Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:05 AM Joe - would it make any difference? Some people will happily pursue their argument in the face of the facts. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:09 AM Hey, there are a lot of underemployed folklorists out there. They could use the consulting fee, even if people don't believe them. People hire mechanics to fix cars - why not a folklorist for a folklore issue? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Purple Foxx Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM Generally speaking English Local Government Officers do ,in my experience,tend to the view that if the facts are inconsistent with their own opinions the facts deserve to be disregarded. Your proposal is what ought to be happening,Joe,but we are dealing with an ultrapaternalistic mindset here. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: breezy Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:38 AM 20 years ago I sang this to a preschool/nursery group. One little boy came up to me and said 'You are singing it wrong. it should be 'white' sheep' So its nothing new. Sad is it not? many thanks to John O'L, its possible only a very few know the origins of many of the songs sung anyway. 'black , black , black is the colour, of my true loves pte Seeger said 'Sing out, sing loud, sing often' Yeah!! Whatch out for me on the news folks |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: David C. Carter Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:44 AM To have a "mindset"it's handy if one has a "mind"!All too often lacking in Local Goverment Officers!This has happened before in England anyway,nothing was learned the last time around,so it would seem.It's about using the word"black"!Everyone's on tippy toe trying not to be "offensive".It's PC gone mad.Let's ask the sheep! Baaaa...Humbug |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 03 Mar 06 - 04:52 AM Yes, I'm the Black Sheep of the family, and I'm proud of it - especially when out on a spree with my fellow gentleman soldiers! Baa baa baa! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Flash Company Date: 03 Mar 06 - 06:44 AM North Manchester a Primary School was actually teaching the kids to sing 'Baa, baa green sheep', black was offensive, but green was OK as sheep were deemed to be environmentally friendly. My pal heard his 4 year old daughter singing it, so when they were out on a drive in the country the next weekend he stopped a a field of sheep and said 'Now there is a black one and quite a lot of white ones, show me the green one and you can have it for a pet!' As I have said before, you couldn't make it up! FC |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: breezy Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:49 AM Baa baa cream sheep anyone ? Baa baa dirty sheep Baa baa shorn sheep Baa baa slaughtered sheep Baa baa shagged sheep. Baa baa bu.... no Baa baa dipped sheep Baa baa drenched |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:12 AM Baa baa red sheep, Have you any meat? It's stopped twitching now. What a lot of stuff to eat! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: breezy Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:14 AM Happy new year Paul |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: SINSULL Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM Baa Baa baby bush, Have you any oil? I am killing off the A-rabs for it Patriotic toil. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: gnomad Date: 03 Mar 06 - 09:16 AM Liverpool MIGHT have some sort of city guilt complex due to their historic involvement in slavery, as might several of the UK's major ports. They COULD thus be hypersensitive on such issues, but I would have credited them with more sense than this. It isn't as if the rhyme were ambiguous. Baa-Baa = sheep noise Black sheep = sheep Wool = sheep covering Not a shackle, cotton-bol, plantation or slave(r) mentioned, and if they are going to read between the lines to that extent they could just as well say that the stars and stripes is about fashion week. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM It was not, as I understood the news item, anything to do with local government officers. As far as I could tell, it was the Liverpool Phil musicians had decided themselves not to sing the song, after some unspecified complainants had "explained" that the song was about slavery in the cotton plantations of Virginia. Surprisngly specific, geographically, I thought. What is there in the song that localises its story in the cotton fields of Virginia?(I am not an expert on USA agriculture...do they actually have cotton fields in Virginia? I thought that was where they grow Golden Virginia) |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 06 - 10:06 AM On a related note, what is the origin of the phrase "Black and Decker drill"? |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: David C. Carter Date: 03 Mar 06 - 11:08 AM Baa Baa Bahh Ann Baa Baa Bahh Ann I'll get me capo. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Joybell Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM Wish we could get us some of those environmentally-friendly green sheep. The usual kind have done so much damage here. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Jeri Date: 03 Mar 06 - 07:01 PM Joybell, maybe one of the PETA people will splash them with paint for wearing a fur coat. (Yeah, I know: stupid comment) I once took a 'risk management' class. It's not what it sounds like -- it's about how to manage near-panic situations. I watched Brown NOT do it during Katrina, but then, it's about how to tell folks the truth when they're already pissed off or about to be. Truths are eventually proven but lies will just... well, we know what happens. What is important to be aware of is that, when you're dealing with public opinion and emotion, perception EQUALS reality. It doesn't matter if a thing is true, people will behave as if it's true and that's what drives them. The bottom line is, when enough people believe something, whether it's true or not doesn't matter. Usually the untruth is more interesting and so is what gets passed around. Witness how many people have said that ring-around-the-rosie is thousands of years old, despite the fact it hasn't been around that long, and is about the black plague. Come to think of it, if you come up with the right story, you could probably convince enough folks that baa-baa was about the black plague |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: John O'L Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:12 PM On a related note, what is the origin of the phrase "Black and Decker drill"? 'Black and Decker' is the name of a company that makes power tools. A Black and Decker drill is a drill made by Black and Decker. It's as racially motivated as 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:15 PM Oh is that the origin, John? I thought it was probably something to do with slavery and ships. Everything else seems to be. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: John O'L Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:17 PM Well, don't let a town council get hold of it... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: John O'L Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:21 PM Did I answer a rhetorical question then? I'm not long out of bed. Carry on. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Mar 06 - 09:04 PM Lighter in vol. I, (the biggest, best portion of 3, with only 2 parts published because Random House and collector had disagreements on the thoroughness) has no reference to "Black-Sheep" in American Slang.
As usual with the MC forum, the problem appears to be a UK aborration.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Kaleea Date: 03 Mar 06 - 09:59 PM I have a friend who loves to get the wool of black sheep & spin it into yarn. I knitted up a lovely sweater with it. "We are poor little lambs who have lost our way . . .!" |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Howard Kaplan Date: 03 Mar 06 - 11:54 PM There is a traditional folksong reference to "black sheep" as a term for slaves, appearing in a song where "blackbirds" has the same meaning. It's in the song "Congo River", collected by Stan Hugill, and appearing on Tom Lewis' web page with the song's lyrics . Here are those lyrics:
So, it appears that the Liverpool Philharmonic was correct about one use of the term, but not about its use in the "Baa baa black sheep" context. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: freightdawg Date: 04 Mar 06 - 12:13 AM Bleat, Bleat, ebony pigmented ovine Have you any wool? Affirmative, affirmative, three containers full. One is destined for my oppresive, capitalistic manager, One is destined for his abused and repressed significant other, and one is destined for the not yet mature male child who lives separate and apart from his companions. Hmmm. Freightdawg |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Flash Company Date: 04 Mar 06 - 10:25 AM Hi Joybell, how ya doin? I guess a few American cattlemen would probably say that sheep aren't environmentally friendly too. I suspect that we have a few teachers around Manchester who wouldn't recognise a sheep if one got up and bit them. FC |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Joybell Date: 04 Mar 06 - 05:57 PM Hello Flash Company. All of those domestic animals with hard feet are a problem here actually. Old land. Worn down. Used to soft-footed creatures. Howard for what it's worth I have - "A 'Black-Ball' ship come down the river," as that line in "Congo River". As in a ship of the "Black-Ball" line. Don't know the source off-hand. Must go listen to the Clancy Brothers version again. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Andy Jackson Date: 04 Mar 06 - 07:22 PM "Black and decker drill" is derived from the phrase "Black Deck drill" used in times of Nelson to describe a particularly rough punishment usually reserved for coloured slaves. It involved running around the lower decks in strict tempo until a groove was worn in the deck. Despite protests from suitable action groups the term has now settled into common useage. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 04 Mar 06 - 08:15 PM What about that Green and Black chocolate...particularly the Bitter Cherry flavour. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: DMcG Date: 05 Mar 06 - 06:50 AM Green is the colour of my true love's hair ... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,Andy Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:19 AM For many years, in the U.K, I dont recall hearing of the once famous Black Dyke Mills brass band, a veritable Northern institution at one time of day. Not having a very P.C name, have they been subject to pressure and changed their title ? Quite possible in this mad world! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Andy Jackson Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:21 AM Probably after representation from do-gooders worried about offending "new nationals" with a different gender persuasion no doubt! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: greg stephens Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM On the contrary, Andy, they are living in comfortable retirement on the interest on their spectacular £135M grant from the GLC in the good old loony left days. Nobody before or since has managed just that blend of ticks in the boxes of race,gender,sexual orientation and class. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:40 AM Black Dyke homepage |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:58 AM I did see the word 'rich' on their web page... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Snuffy Date: 05 Mar 06 - 06:29 PM I've usually heard it as A Yankee ship came down the river. I don't think any of the various Black Ball lines were involved with the slave trade: probably abolished before their time. but definitely Black Sheep that had run the embargo which would tie up with American slave ships running the Royal Navy blockades. Other versions have 1000 whores from Yokohama and in the same song a verse that is non-partisan in its political incorrectness: What do you think that they had for dinner? Blow, boys, blow A black man's heart and a white man's liver. Blow my bully boys blow. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Joybell Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM Yes Snuffy, you're quite right. It's "Yankee ship" everywhere I look now. Interesting about the Black and Decker drills. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: The Badger Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:17 PM I love Politically Correct sayings and people. They are so self evident you don't have to do or say anything. Self igniting halfwits! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Muttley Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:55 PM The whole thing is that the entire "Political Correctness" thing has beena F****d unit from the word go. It is my confirmed belief that political coprrectness itself should be defined as politically incorrect and banished forthwith - and its adherents banished to Chateau Dif for the span of their natural lives (with the lives of probable descendants for twelve generations beyond tacked on to the sentence and served consecutively) - and be forced to live off the land there. Yes, I know - nothing grows there - - - that was the idea. Muttley |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:41 AM Once saw a funny satirical piece that pointed out that 'women' had 'men' in it - so we substitute 'woperson' - but 'person' has the male 'son' in it - so we end up with 'woperone'... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Paul Burke Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:05 AM Remember that PC started out as a joke... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Bert Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:10 AM Well I have sung Congo River to a mixed race crown and included the verse What do you think we carried as cargo Blow, boys, Blow 'twas black sheep breaking the embargo blow, me bully boys blow. and it was well received by everyone. of course the last verse moderates it somewhat. It's blow today and blow tomorrow Blow, boys, Blow It's blow for this hells ship of sorrow blow, me bully boys blow. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:14 AM I foresee a problem for Blackberry connectivity.... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:59 AM Pick a bale of Cotton and Black Betty was written by Huddie Leadbetter who himself was Black and proberly the son/grandson of a slave. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:06 AM "Remember that PC started out as a joke... " and turned into fanactism... |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:08 AM |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:34 AM I rememeber the days of Mary Whitehouse wanting to ban Chuck Berry's 'My ding-a-ling'. Keith Waterhouse the, then, Daily Mirror columnist suggested banning the carol 'Ding dong merrily on high' as it suggested mutual masterbation while being on drugs:-) Wonder what else we could come up with? Hickory dickory dock - Offensive to workers unloading ships? Ring-a-ring a rosie - Daren't sing that to gardeners! Little Bo Peep - Boy, was she a dumb blonde... Jack and Jill - What realy went on between two minors on that hill? Next! Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:06 AM Actually, green sheep are very common. They just don't show up very well. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Flash Company Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:58 AM Yesterday the Daily Mail had 'Rainbow Sheep'. It gets sillier. FC |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:02 AM From Stanley Accringtons Sellafield song "The sheep are glowing in the dark you can see their ghostly presence Lighting up the lakeland hills with an eerie luminescence" :D(tG) |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: pavane Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:26 PM Well, we know that one.. Jack and Jill went up the hill There was no-one in the vicinity Jack came down less half-a-crown And Jill less her virginity (For non-UK readers, half-a-crown, also known as half a dollar was a pre-decimalisation coin worth one eighth of a pound.) |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,cpt england Date: 10 Mar 06 - 08:29 PM i think it is absolute madness that we should change our nursery rhymes that are hundreds of years old,if people dont like our traditions and values why dont they leave OUR country!!! |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: Andy Jackson Date: 11 Mar 06 - 03:49 AM Off beam there old boy! It is usually the crackpot natives of "our" country who come up with these daft PC ideas. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:22 PM AN ASIDE: B. (Ben) A. Botkin, compiler of many books of fokloristic tidbits on various topics was, also, once head of the Archive Of Folk songs at the USA's Library Of Congress in Washington D.C. I was talking to Bruce U. Utah Phillips back in the 1970s about Botkin and he came out with this clever utterance: B.A., B.A. Botkin, Have you any folklore? Art |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM well maskin man 'old boy'!!! i never heard anyone complaining like this before about nursery rhymes and a whole bunch of stuff every other week, until the country got over un. And who do you think is behind most of these ideas?? probably the same people who have taken our freedom of speach away, and will not stop until they have taken our country, while you sit ignorant to it all. |
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Subject: RE: Baa Baa Black Sheep(new problem) From: GUEST,Jonathan Date: 21 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM As it just so happens... http://www.digitaltoast.co.uk/rainbow-sheep |
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