BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT

Subject: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:45 AM

That airport story thread reminded me of the time I had a short contact at the old Croydon airport. The company that I was working for had rented a hangar to layour an oil drilling platform.

The idiots obviously weren't able to handle it on the drawing board as any competant company would have done.

Well one day we had to walk through the old concourse, a beautiful building. It was all silent and bare, except for the dust. But you could feel the presence of the passengers who hadn't been there for many a year. Very eerie.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

Well wrought this wall: Fate broke it.
The stronghold burst . . .
Snapped rooftrees, towers fallen,
The work of the Giants, the stonesmiths,mouldereth.
Rime scoureth gatetowers, rime on mortar.
Shattered the showershields, roofs ruined,
Age under-ate them.

The Ruin, Anglo Saxon poem.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:44 AM

Is this (click) the airport you visited, Bert? Another photo on this page (click).
Looks like a stately old place. I love old airfields.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:55 AM

Years back I had a job making and setting tombstones. Setting them was a nice, though hot and labor-intensive, job -- out in the quiet of cemeteries, often in the country, in good weather. You'd meet some nice people (live people) too sometimes.

My brother followed me in the job, and we were sitting around his kitchen table once talking and he asked if I had ever felt a "presence" in any of the cemeteries.

Yes, I replied, I had. I had had a feeling when working in the local Jewish cemetery that I wasn't wanted there, that I was an alien presence tolerated only because I had a job to do and that I should do it and got out!!

He took another drink and said that he'd had exactly the same feeling when he'd worked there.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:26 AM

I've always liked The Ruin, Paul. One of my favorite poems, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:30 AM

A few weeks ago, my friends husband and her little puppy died, inside her house, in violent and very tragic circumstances. :-(

A few days later in her entranceway putting my boots on after a visit. And I saw something like I've never seen before in my life. As I straightened up, I saw that dog come running up to me as it always did -- tail wagging, big heavy awkward paws prancing, 'asking' to go out.
IT was not a solid shape -- fading in and out kinda like an 'shade', or a shadow as the clouds drift across the sun. I was a little freaked out -- didn't say anything to her or anyone else, and I must say I was glad I was already on my way out the door!

It was very strange. I'll never forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:39 AM

I have experienced unexplained phenomena, which has no scientific or forensic explanation which for want of a better explanation could be attributed to a spirit source. As for seeing an actual ghost, I believe I did once aboard a ship, but could not confirm it until some weeks later, when learning about a death aboard the ship some years previous to the event.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

Sometimes I think we are like fish in a fishbowl no better versed in what is going on around us than they are.

I had a 'crowd' experience once. In Monmouth Oregon I had left the college campus. crossing a little footbridge over a stream that was banded by narrow woods. I came out on a dead end stub of a street and as I walked up the sidewalk (pavement) I suddenly felt I was going in the wrong direction. "People" were streaming toward the college, thickly enough that I felt I should dodge about. Silent and oblivious of me but laughing and talking amongst themselves. By the time I reached the cross street they were all gone.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Partridge
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:54 AM

I was asleep in bed (alone) when I felt someone sit on the side of the bed, but there was no one there. It was not scarey.

I have also seen moving small lights in my bedroom - a bit like orbs - again not frightening.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:03 PM

Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:11 PM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,DannyC
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:31 PM

This past summer I had been consumed with finding my way into a satisfactory performance version of "Little Musgrave". The murders therein were voiced repeatedly by me at the central hearth of our home.

After several weeks - in still moments within our home - my wife and I would jointly hear unexplained thuds - and once - the sound of a door closing in an adjacent room. (A quick investigation showed no open windows.) My wife reports that she occasionally caught swift moving shadows out of the corner of her eyes.

In late October, as we retired for a night's rest, we jointly heard the distinct sound of light metal-on-metal (best described as a single American dime being repeatedly dropped on a pile of dimes) just beyond our reach beyond the night stand.

The events subsided at the onset of November. (Our hope is that the whatever-it-is wintered well in Florida and plans to revisit before long.)

I will also report an occurance - during a September weekend's private feast of tunes and ballads - while singing the song at a friends' home in Illinois. Their black cat (lawd, what a cliche!) made her one-and-only appearance of the weekend by carefully pawing her way into the middle of our gathering - looked me in the eye - and commenced ta' howl (o' course, if you heard me sing, you might take ta howlin' yerself)....

These happenings are attested to by this seal:   DJC

All the Best,

Danny

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

I experienced a "haunting" in a NYC apartment. A sad affair. Last time I recounted it I took a bit of abuse here so I won't bore you with the details. I have no proof and no explanation but it happened.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:02 PM

My friend Jamie's mother is in a nursing home in the late stages of Alzheimer's disease. She only occasionally recognizes family members and is frequesntly semiconscious at best. Jamie also has an old dog named Heidi that's very sick and probably only has days to live.

So, while Jamie was visiting his mother a few days ago she unexpectedly asked if he still had "that dog". He was rather shocked that his mom would remember his dog, since she rarely remembers his name, and probably hadn't seen the dog in ten years. He explained to her that, yes, he still had Heidi but that she was in pretty sad shape and would probably be gone before long. His mother said something like, "Hmmm, I thought so. I saw that dog today."

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM

Anyone who doesn't 'believe' in ghosts has never seen one

That's very true.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:12 PM

Yes, That's the place Joe, a lovely old building. It is spectacular inside with a grand staircase.

Of course there a lots of old airfields in England built during WWII but that one is special.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM

I have had over a half dozen 'experiences' with 'ghosts' at various times in my life, starting when I was 12 years old. The last was when I was in my late forties. As SINS said above, it's probably best not to be too vocal about it.

In my experience, only one of the 'ghosts' was something evil. The others were either friendly or neutral. I gave up caring what people thought of it after my grandfather warned me of his coming death in a dream. Since then, I know there are things others may not see or believe in, and that's fine. But I have yet to have anyone convince me that what I saw was not what I saw. I no longer care about convincing others. People can believe what they want, and that's fine with me.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:22 PM

So right, Peace. (Although I, frankly, don't care if I have to take abuse. That's their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:29 PM

Every single example given here can be attributed to the power of suggestion, not some power from beyond. As much as we wish to believe that there is some sort of presence in the afterlife, it doesn't happen.

The only creature that experiences a visit with the dead are worms.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM

*sitting on my hands, lest I comment*

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:32 PM

Comment all ya want. It ain't gonna change a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

Ah, come on, Bill. Comment!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:34 PM

That is certain. It won't change a thing. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:34 PM

Les Sullivan has a wonderful story he tells, relating to TOC-H, or Talbot House, in Popperinge (near Ypres in Flanders), a resting-stop for soldiers in WWI. It was established and run by a military priest, "Tubby" Clayton, who was a fascinating character. The place is still run today, partly as a museum, put you can stay there overnight in one of the rooms (I did). Tubby's old room is on the 2nd floor (3rd for Americans).

Les wrote a lovely song about the history of TOC-H and Tubby Clayton, and on his next visit to Talbot House he sang the song to the (then) steward of the house, Philippe, on the 2nd floor landing.

As Les finished singing, the door to Tubby's room slowly opened by itself, and there was a distinct aroma of pipe smoke (Tubby used to smoke a pipe, though the house nowadays is smoke-free of course)...

I, and others who herd Les' wonderful song and have visited the place, would like to think that the gratified spirit of Tubby was giving him his full attention.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

well, ok, ebbie..*grin*

I JUST remembered my old shop teacher in the 8th grade...he was bald, stooped and cantankerous...and the story was that he never really got over being shell-shocked in WWI.
One day he was explaining how to "be sure of stuff" (I can't really remember how the topic came up, but he didn't always NEED a reason)

"S'pose you're walkin' around, and suddenly you see a ghost! Is that real? Speak, ghost!....Ghost don't say nothin'....Ain't no ghost!"

That is pretty close to verbatim. He lacked a certain amount of detail..*grin*...but there was a point buried in his gruff dismissal that I chewed on...and obviously never forgot.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

We, the cast and crew, were working late in the theater at Ft. Carson, Colorado preparing the set for "You Can't Take It With You." And I mean late -- it was about 2 a.m. (0200, because we were in the Army) when we looked up and saw two Military Policemen at the back of the theater watching us. We invited them to come for coffee, but they ignored us and when we looked back they were gone. THEN I realized that a) they would have been from my company (I was in the MPs at the time) and I didn't recognize them, b) they were in summer short-sleeve khakis and this was December and they should have been in class-A wool uniform, and c) their uniforms were from the late 1940s or early 1950s.

You figure it out, because we couldn't.

Oh, yeah -- we finished the set and the play was well received.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:16 PM

"You figure it out, because we couldn't."

You answered your own question - it was 2am and you were working late.

Group hallucination - two people were standing in the back of the room that none of you could see clearly. As soon as people started desribing what they saw, everyone started to believe it and accept the theory that it was a ghost.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:22 PM

...the power of suggestion... I know Ron, I know - but it's not so much fun.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:25 PM

Ghost experiment homepage
(with many theories explained and referenced)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:39 PM

I too had an old shop teacher. Rememeber him well. He too was cantankerous. He never said anything about ghosts. However, he never told me I didn't experience what I experienced. That made him pretty wise in my book. His name was Mr Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:02 PM

"he never told me I didn't experience what I experienced"

Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You, and everyone else, uses the term "ghosts" as a crutch for things that you can't or perhaps would rather not resolve logically.   As you previously stated, you do not care what people think. That is simply another defense mechanism to prevent logical interpretation of the incident(s).

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:21 PM

OK. But I know what I saw. The problem here is that YOU don't know what I saw. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:24 PM

Neither one of us know what you saw, but I can guarantee it wasn't a ghost. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:27 PM

Maybe not, but you'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You, and everyone else, uses the term "ghosts" as a crutch for things that you can't or perhaps would rather not resolve logically.   As you previously stated, you do not care what people think. That is simply another defense mechanism to prevent logical interpretation of the incident(s).

Well, looky here -- the term "ghost" is pretty loaded up and confused with sheets. So let us just say that stimulated mental images occur, just as they do in a moment of physical perception, or, in a moment of visionary creation; but the stimulated mental images are sometimes (a)physically accurate but noncompliant with ordinary space-time rules, such as when one sees the vision of a distant loved one who has suddenly died at that moment (which happens quite often) and (b) are often accompanied by a strong sense of message or intent for which no physical, immediate explanation can be found.

Given such moments of perception, the alternatives, broadly, are that fatigue and chemical imbalances are causing chemical and electronic firings in the closed system of the brain and CNS of the individual (a materialist-preferred interpretation which Ron defends above) OR that some sort of input external to the system is in fact occurring and "getting through" to the recipient. This could include, for example, quantum-level transmsisions between brains, or spiritual transmissions between beings. Seems to me that no Turing test exists to discriminate between these two sets.

I would suggest that there IS no definitive argument to finish this analysis on one side or the other, because the core model of how thought and communication happen at all is incomplete. But in general, I think it is not a good idea to tell people that their experiences are invalid, simply because they differ in some fundamental way with one's own.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

Hmmmm.
Why does Bill D sit on his hands to avoid commenting?
He talks with his hands?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

"Maybe not, but you'll never know. "

Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:31 PM

OK, Ron. You know that for you. BUT, ya don't know that for me. Ain't life grand?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

BTW, it's cool that we disagree on this.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

I do know that you never saw a "ghost". Never happened, never will.

Ain't life grand?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM

Ron, you don't KNOW that. But there's no point insisting that I didn't unless you need me to agree with you, in which case, "I didn't see a ghost." But I did see something that looked like a ghost that I'll just call a ghost. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

I don't need you to agree with me either, that isn't the point. I alrady said in my earlier post - "Your experience was real, but you did not see a "ghost". You can change the definition that most people have of the word "ghost" if you like. You did not see any physical spirit of a dead person. Never happened, never will.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:45 PM

I appreciate your opinion on that Ron. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:45 PM

I'm glad we agree!!

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

WE DO.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

Now, if politics was this easy, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

"no Turing test exists to discriminate between these two sets."

yep...that's why I usually urge reports to be limited to "I seemed to see or hear or experience 'X', and I don't know why or how", rather than "It WAS a ghost, or an alien spacecraft, or me Aunt Mariah!".

(and Joe...for all you know, I type with my nose...very slowly. I may even cause the keys to depress by thought alone!)

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:47 PM

The dead stay dead, they do not return in any other form, except maybe as compost.

No one has ever or will ever see a "ghost" in the classic sense. Never happened, never will. Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:51 PM

I said I don't believe in them. But I can use my imagination.

I write songs that are not always true using that same imagination.

If you had been there EVEN YOU could have imagined them. I know they weren't really there 'cos they didn't leave any footprints in the dust.

You could have made a good movie there.

Subject: RE: BS: I don't believe in ghosts - BUT
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

"No one has ever or will ever see a "ghost" in the classic sense. Never happened, never will. Fact."

I have.