BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:18 PM

I don't think that most of the mass slaughter in Europe during the 20th Century - the Great War, the Russian Revolution and its aftermath, the Holocaust, World War II - can really be primarily put down to religious belief.

Moreover "in the name of religious belief" frequently has nothing to do with religious belief, except in sofar as this acts as a marker for tribalism and nationalism. As for example in Ireland, Israel/Palestine, and the former Yugoslavia.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 08:29 PM

'Moreover "in the name of religious belief" frequently has nothing to do with religious belief, except in sofar as this acts as a marker for tribalism and nationalism.'

Yep - and thus the Nazi belief system is thus reasonably considered a 'religious belief system' - indeed it was a defacto 'State Religion' - if it quacks like a duck...

All 'Religious Belief' is based on 'Faith Alone'. It doesn't have to be be just faith in 'One Supremem Being'.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM

I would also include Stalin's purges in that category. Atheism can be just as deadly as theism.

I've thought for some time that there's something inside humanity that makes one set of people want to impose their beliefs -- religious, national, social, moral, governmental, economic, whatever -- on other groups. We can't be content, but are driven to impose upon others.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:34 PM

People actually worship this? It's cute, but . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 03:29 AM

Late medieval protestantism has nothing to do with the Anglican and Methodist faiths of today.
Everyone did bad things centuries ago.
Nazism, Stalinism and Maoism were all secular ideologies.

If we are all misguided dupes, what harm can it do to live by the principles that you should do to others as you would be done by, forgive those who wrong you, and love not just your neighbour but even your enemy?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:19 AM

"secular ideologies" are indistinguishable, especially in their social effects, from "religions".

"What's in a name"...

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

Hitler very much considered himself a Christian.(See primary source documents on www.nobeliefs.com)
Stalin always acknowledged the ways in which his Seminary school education proved useful to him later.
I try to practice the principles you rightly endorse Keith.
When it's reciprocal it works when it isn't it doesn't.
When our leaders feel the need of spiritual guidance they don't seek out the likes of you & WYSIWYG.
Please believe me when I tell you that I think we'd all be better off if they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:25 AM

Peace, I'm sure it's mother would...

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:32 AM

If a dog considers itself a cat, it is still a dog.
No Christian values were embodied in Nazism.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:51 AM

"No Christian values were embodied in Nazism."
An argument could be made to that effect Keith.
This also holds true for Fred Phelps & his ilk.
If this sounds intemperate it is not intended to be.
I just feel that we need to respect & defend Secular spaces.
Believers & Non-believers both benefit from doing so.
Neither Atheist nor Theist are dirty words.
We should all beware of anyone on either side who tries to persuade us otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:14 AM

He is the Baptist minister who will not Baptise gay people?
I think that he is wrong about that.
I presume he is otherwise Christian in his behavior.
I do not think Hitler was.
Any large group of people has it's wackos.
If I found a wacko atheist I would not cite him as evidence that atheists are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:18 AM

Yes Keith Phelps is that Minister but there is more to him than that.
If you google the phrase "God hates" you will see what I mean.
Be warned though its deeply unpleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:27 AM

Deeply embarrassing goof No.7822.
My previous post ought to have read "Keith,Phelps" NOT "Keith Phelps".
Purple blushing scarlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:59 AM

I have a theory that the divides in humanity come down to the basic insecurity of a lot of people. This makes them need to belong to a group and, when they come across others who are not part of that group, they have to push their ideology forward, sometimes extremely aggressively, in order to bouy up their own ego.

This can be taken advantage of by the real egotists and sociopaths who feed off of the adulation and compliance of their followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:44 AM

There is much debate about whether Hitler was Christian, or just used Christianity as a political tool.

His treaty with the Vatican (Google "Concordat of 1933") was the first "international recognition" of his new regime, and without it the new government likely would have been much slower achieving real control in Germany. The treaty also established "fundamentalist" Vatican Roman Catholicism as the official state religion. It completely neutralized the more liberal Catholic churches within Germany, who were, prior to the treaty, one of the few groups sufficiently organized and large enough to have opposed his subsequent pogroms.

One of the first major attacks on the previously existing order in Germany was the criminalizing of homosexuality, and estimates are that as many as 300,000 victims of this attack may have died in labor camps before they got around to "the jewish problem." It is still debated whether this attack was instigated, or merely abetted, by the Church. It is certainly true that, along with the Fundamentalist Protestant (largely Baptist) Churches, some Catholic Churches were instrumental in the recent passage of amendments to the State Constitutions in 23 US states denying the civil right of marriage or any similar kind of civil association to homosexuals. Nearly all of the remaining states already had, or in the majority of cases have recently passed, statutory prohibitions of the same kind.

As in Germany, there have been frequent recent attempts to write other "religious laws" into State Constitutions and into the US Constitution. As in Germany, there have been several attempts to limit and/or discredit the authority of the highest courts, both with respect to several State Supreme Courts, and for the US Supreme Courts. As in Germany there have been efforts to "stack the Courts" with judges who will vote "God's will" in preference to voting according to Law.

The use of "fundamentalist doctrines" as a political tool permits the creation of multitudinous "laws/rules/regulations" that, if capriciously enforced can prevent people from acting openly, can nurture disrespect for all laws, and can make it much easier to impose arbitrary restrictions and infringements of prior rights on all persons. This was done quite effectively in Germany, and people "accepted" it because almost everyone was "guilty of something," and speaking up about anything could result in arrest, incarceration without trial, and often death in a labor camp. (At least at first, this was largely done under the guise of "emergency powers" assumed by Hitler. Does that sound familiar?)

Who cares if Hitler - or Bush or Brownback or the several others - are/were "Christian?" Fundamentalism offers them enormous political power, as long as they can lip the incantations to keep the "real believers" voting the way the egomaniacal preachers tell them to.

It ain't really about religion. It's all about VOTES. And about Egotistical Lust for POWER.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:11 AM

1. I am not opposed to any religion that teaches things such as love, respect for others, the equality of all people, and so on. This includes Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.

2. Though brought up at a time when my church (RC) taught that we were the only ones going to Heaven, I couldn't understand that then and can't now. I have no brief with Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, or anyone else that teaches what Jesus of Nazareth taught (not what the preachers say he taught).

3. As a good friend once said, I try not to let my church interfer with my religion.

4. My contention is that every church has done things that are, at best, unpleasant. This includes actions up to and including killing dissenters. This does not mean that it is done now (but check your church's laws; you might be surprised at what can be done -- defrocking, for example).

5. In the past it was nearly impossible to seperate political from economic from religious motives for these punishments, and in all too many cases it still is (e.g., Pat Robertson).

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:20 AM

And by the way, Phelps and his crowd demonstrate the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq, saying that they died supporting a "gay nation." Check this story, one of many, for info on Phelps and his followers (who seem to be mostly his own family).

I do NOT consider them to be followers of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth....

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:20 AM

A new arrival was being shown around Heaven by St Peter.
He was shown all the wonders and all the features of the place described in the texts of all faiths.
Midway through the tour they arrived at a walled enclosure where Peter indicated to the new arrival that they should be very quiet as they passed.
At the end of the tour the new arrival was asked if he had any questions.
"Yes" said the new arrival "What is in the walled enclosure that we passed so quietly?"
"Oh,that" said Peter "That's where we keep the fundamentalists,they think they're the only ones here."

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: John P
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 10:13 AM

Foolstroupe wrote:
"secular ideologies" are indistinguishable, especially in their social effects, from "religions".

I agree about the social effects, but that's the only real similarity I can think of. Unlike secular ideologies, religions believe, in the absence of any evidence, in the existence of a sentient supernatural being that concerns itself with the actions of human beings and that is in some way responsible for the universe and everything in it. This all too often brings them to the desire they have to affect society from a standpoint that doesn't stand up to any logical analysis, and which fills them with a sense of right. Those with secular ideologies are also often filled with a sense of right, but at least they usually have better reasons, or at least reasons that are understandable by the rest of us, even if we disagree with them.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

Pardon me for protruding, but. . . .

The word "Christian" appears to be sort of a catch-all word that arouses strong emotions, both pro and con. The big mistake that a lot of people make—and forgive me, but a lot of people here keep making—is to assume that the word "Christian" encompasses a single, monolithic group of like-minded people.

That's simply not true.

If that were true, then why are there a couple of different flavors of Catholics, and under the heading "Protestants," we have Lutherans, Episcopalians (who, I understand are similar to Anglicans, but not the same), Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Quakers, and dozens, if not hundreds, of other denominations? Because often members of a particular denomination may disagree about some item of doctrine strenuously enough that they break off (schism) and form, not just a new church, but a whole new denomination. That happened a lot throughout history, which is why we have so many different denominations now.

But then, some of these differences are not just about points of doctrine. Some of the current major differences are about the nature of Christianity itself, and are perhaps best exemplified by certain fairly well-known individuals. A reasonable person cannot possibly know about Dietrich Bonhoffer (martyred because of his resistance to Hitler), Martin Niemöller, (also a resister of the Nazis and author of the famous "When they came for the Communists. . . ."), someone like Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (later known as Mother Theresa), or pastors such as Barbara Rossing (lecturer and author of many articles and books, including The Rapture Exposed, that refutes the whole idea of Millennialism) and Jim Wallis (editor of Sojourners magazine, lecturer, and author of several books, including God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It) and lump them together with demagogues like James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of that arrogant, grim-faced, hellfire-and-brimstone lot.

Even though some of the language these folks use may sound similar, they are two entirely different bodies of religious belief. The former believe in the loving, forgiving God that Jesus described. When they work in the community (as they often do), they are usually involved in programs aimed at aiding the poor and the homeless and in sponsoring such organizations as the Lutheran Peace Fellowship and the Fellowship of Reconciliation. Many of them were deeply involved in the Civil Rights Movement, and they are often to be found in peace marches and vigils.

Judging by their actions and statements of belief, the latter group apparently worships an angry, vengeful God. When they work in the community, they attempt to get books banned from libraries, get creationism (or "intelligent design"—creationism in a lab-coat) taught in the schools, get laws passed that intrude into people's private lives, trying to limit what they can read, watch, and listen to, control what they do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, and enforcing their beliefs and moral codes on all others in the society, no matter what their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) might be. In short, they're after secular power. Tip-off phrase:   "This is a Christian country!"

Contrast, for example the agenda ("mission") of The National Council of Churches (left column on their web page), an organization that includes and represents most of the main-line churches in this country, with Christian fundamentalists, a considerably smaller, but highly vocal group, who embrace a combination of Calvinism and Social Darwinism, along with the belief that the folk tales and mythology in the Bible are literally true and that the events described are historical fact.

I fail to see how people who believe that "moral values" consist solely of such things as believing that a woman who becomes pregnant through rape, then terminates the pregnancy with an abortion, should burn in Hell forever after the hell she's already been through; or that two people of the same gender who love each other are also doomed to Hellfire if they express that love; and that it is pleasing in God's eyes to wage war, ignoring its attendant carnage and destruction, to gain natural resources or geopolitical power. Or who believe that poor people should not be assisted because they wouldn't be poor if God didn't want them to be poor, and to help them is to go against God's will. How they can justify calling themselves "Christians" escapes me when what they believe clashes so violently with the actual core teachings of Christ, which can be found in Matthew 5:3-11 and Matthew 25:35-40.

There are many who would consign my soul to Hell for having said all of the above.

Big deal!

Anyway, it's neither fair nor accurate to condemn all Christians because of the ranting, raving, and attempted power-grabbing of a bunch of shriveled, screwed up little souls who would undoubtedly crucify Jesus all over again if he actually did return.

Don Firth

P. S. Here is an excellent article (speech) by a very well-known Baptist:   Clicky.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

Likewise, Don, there are differences in Judaism and Islam -- not to mention Buddhism and Hinduism.

I agree with you, and you said it very well indeed.

(I won't quote the former head of the KKK who said, "There's more than one Klan. To talk about 'the Klan' is like putting all sorts of nuts in one box.")

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: Hollowfox
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 04:55 PM

(ahem) On a lighter note, when I read the beginnings of this thread a couple of days ago, I remembered checking some of these videos out of my library when my urchins were just we'uns. The series, by the way, is called "Who's Afraid of Opera?" I remembered Dame Joan Sutherland, but not the puppets, so I looked and, sure enough, the library still owns some of the videos - including the one with Faust. So I reserved them (they haven't come in yet for me, so I can't report on the quality of the productions). I mentioned to my (now 19 year old) son that I was sending for the tapes, and why, and he happily exclaimed, "Oh, I remember those! Since it was called 'Who's Afraid of Opera' I thought that the puppets were afraid of opera, and the point of the show was to reassure the puppets! I always wondered why a bunch of puppets would be afraid of opera..."
(We pause now while I nearly busted a gut laughing) Time and again I see kids picking up anything but the intended lesson from this sort of thing. I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM

What Don Firth said: Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:30 PM

Well put Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, Don.

If English speaking people have to have that explained, you can imagine what the Muslim world thinks of the Christian world and vice versa. Stereotypes have never been the answer to anything. In fact, stereotypes only lead to conflict.

Bush and Co. have always known this and have used this to manipulate the masses and create a war without end.

Subject: RE: BS: Stop Devil Worship In Schools
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 07:56 PM

Both in Germany and Italy, there was a 'religious faith' in the beliefs of their ideologies, even without any historical facts or proofs. They were even manufactured to order, and when you next watch the Olympic Torch Relay, or see the Olympic Rings - remember that!
:-)