BS: Greatest Statesman Ever

Subject: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

This is a very subjective subject. Americans might say "Abraham Lincoln" or "George Washington" or "Thomas Jefferson". Britons might say "Winston Churchill" or "Gladstone" or "Disraeli". Germans might say "Otto Von Bismark" or "Frederick the Great". Mexicans would say "Benito Juarez", while some other Latin Americans might name Simon Bolivar. Then you have the statesmen of ancient times...Charlemagne, Augustus Caesar, Solomon, the Yellow Emperor, etc...

So let's not fight about it. ;-) Just pick who you would choose, and explain why. It could be interesting.

One thing that is clear. Politicians who were commanding the winning side in major wars usually get praised to the skies and turned into the nation's greatest heroes. Those who were on the losing side are usually damned for all time. Is it necessarily because they were so great...or so bad....or was it more because they simply happened to be there in a time of crisis?

Or is it a combination of both?

Well, yak away.

I am going to be a bit unconventional here (for a North American) and pick the Yellow Emperor, who ruled over China in its most prosperous and peaceful time. He is recognized by Taoists as the wisest, most beloved and successful ruler that China ever had, and the harmonious society he governed seems to have been a good testament to that.


The Yellow Emperor

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Bert
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

Anwar Sadat. He knew he was putting his life on the line when he made peace with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

Interesting choice, Bert! I also have a high regard for Anwar Sadat.

And for Mikhail Gorbachev too. That man was totally remarkable. I think he may well have saved us from a Third World War in the 80's.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: number 6
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM

I'm gonna have to say Zigfrids A. Meierovics. Now ho the hell is he one would ask. Well he was very important to the nation of Latvia. What is Latvia one will ask. Well it is a nation of people, just like any other nation. Well, who would really care one would ask ... well the people of Latvia would really care.

If one is interested here's a link that explains the importance of Zigfrids ... Zigfrids and Latvia


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:48 PM

Excellent contribution, Six.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:58 PM

Margaret Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Beer
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

I'm not a very religious man any more but I would have to go with Jesus Christ. To long to explain why. Lots of material out there on him though.
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:06 PM

Lincoln, easily. I like the fact that he was not worried whether God was on our side, but whether we were on God's side. He seems to have lived Cromwell's famous saying: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, consider that you may be wrong."

Gandhi is a close second.

Since this is a music forum, I would suggest that Count Basie and Duke Ellington are good candidates for great leadership......

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:09 PM

God comes out the winner every time! He always wins!

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM

I've always felt that a statesman was a dead politician. But that begs the question. Hmmm...Jenghis Khan, or Gregory the Great or Fredrick II or Jimmy Carter or perhaps even Richard Nixon.... Yup, gonna take some thought...Teddy Roosevelt? That Japanese guy...

Just one, huh? In the whole world?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:11 PM

If William Shatner had ever gone into politics, you would not have to spend any more time deciding...the choice would be crystal clear. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:21 PM

Tough choices---the historical figures surely come to mind first (Lincoln, etc)but of recent people I would sure have to choose 3--

Winston Churchill and FDR---Leaders who, basically, created a new world order after urging the Allies on to Victory. FDR had even more influence in domestic matters

The third will surprise all---probably the best ex-pres. we ever had and has grown from a rather weak presidency into a statesman and humanist of the first caliber---Jimmy Carter.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

Gee... never saw that coming, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:31 PM

Nelson Mandela with Jimmy Carter right behind him....

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:34 PM

Gotta think about this. At this point, I tend to agree with Bill H. (I can hear the whoops and snorts now. Well, be that as it may. . . .)

I've heard it said that the difference between a politician and a statesman is that the politician thinks of the next election, whereas the statesmant thinks of the next generation. Sounds about right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM

For sheer accomplishments in both international and national affairs, I have to rate Winston Churchill as the greatest.

Closely followed by Pericles, Benjamin Franklin, Washinton, Lincoln, the two Roosevelts and Ghandi.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM

Nice to hear a nomination in for Pericles...

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:05 PM

Jefferson had the most articulate and best educated vision about what could become of a new nation if it was well-nurtured of almost anyone I know; his insights have been lately trampled by great vice in high places, but he has always been one of my favorites. And while LH's entry really caught me off base, I support Dave TAM's list as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:28 PM

Just to name some one new, Lyndon B Johnson. He screwed up badly in Viet Nam but let's not forget that he's the one who enacted all the programs that Kennedy got credit for.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:43 PM

I've always had a sneaking suspicion LBJ was in on the plot to eliminate John Kennedy in Dallas. Or maybe he knew about it.

Can't prove it, but I can't help but wonder. I wouldn't trust Lyndon as far as I could throw a tank.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:45 PM

Oops. We aren't sposed to fight over the nominees. I said that, didn't I? So I guess I should not float my LBJ theory and cause trouble here....

Okay. Just forget I said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: number 6
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:52 PM

David Ben-Gurion.

Carol C. I'd appreciate no remarks ... please.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:26 AM

My vote goes to the governor of the state of Illinois who pardoned some of the men convicted in the bombing of Chicago's Haymarket Square during organized labor's fight to secure the Eight Hour Day!

That was JOHN PETER ALTGELD --- He did that because the men were convicted in a trial that was a travesty.

Folks, people died to secure those important rights to leisure and free time---with time-and-a-half, at least, for all overtime work. And we have let them slip away from us like our rights to privacy!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:41 AM

Pericles. History remembers him as the first democratic leader of the first democracy.
Had he been a less capaple individual history would probably have remembered him as the last democratic leader of the last democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Kweku
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:29 AM

I will make special mention of His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Haile Selassie I of Ethopia. He leads Africa as a true father.He warned the world about facism and nobody listened.He told us about classism and discrimination and nobody pays attention.

that man is my role model.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:21 AM

Flamenco Ted

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:42 AM

Horatio Bottomley, without a doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM

The king of England 1000 years ago- Ethelred the Unready.   It shows you how much we have progressed in 1000 years.

PS:   He needed a better public relations person.   Alexander the Great is remembered.   Ivan the Terrible is remembered.   William the Conqueror is remembered.   Ethelred the unready- not remembered.   Ethelred the young (he became king at 10) would have had a better chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:25 PM

Fascinating, Quarcoo! The average American I know would not be able to find Ethiopia on a map (or many other countries-watch jay leno doing jaywalking).

LH--cowboy diplomacy can certainly beat the business as usual coming out of the white house today.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Bert
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM

Good choice Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:31 PM

Carter???????????   Good grief! Surely you jest.


On a serious note, I too go with Churchill and FDR. Lincoln is a good choice also.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM

Gorbachev (for he had the strongest impact in last century)
Mandela (for disproving my confident prediction that the transition to majority rule would be bloody)
DeGaulle (for his U-turn on Algeria and Morocco)


Of the Germans I would have to nominate Bismarck (for keeping mostly peace in a difficult time), if only this man would have come down less hard on the socialists.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:26 PM

On a less serious note:

Martin Gibson,

for getting more people on Mudcat to agree on ANYTHING than ever before or after.

8-)E

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: mandotim
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 05:56 AM

I'm with the Canadian newspaper editor (partially quoted above)who was asked what a statesman was. His reply? 'A Statesman is a dead politician, and we need a hell of a lot more of them!'
Tim from Bit on the Side

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:42 AM

The Duke of Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Desdemona
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:48 AM

Elizabeth I, and her right hand man, William Cecil, Lord Burleigh.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:21 PM

Good choice Desdemona, but you should include Walsingham, who replaced Burleigh when he was retired by Elizabeth. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:38 PM

Tom Terrific......I remember the song went:

"I'm Tom Terrific,
Greatest Statesman Ever.
Terrific is the name for me,
'Cause I'm so clever"

.....or something like that.   It's really fine that a 'toon could be a great statesman but then again there is Bush, a 'toon who is a lousy statesman.........Wait a minute......I think Tom was a great hero....not a statesman........Oh well, what the hell, Bush is no hero either so there ya' go........wherever it is you're going......or not going.........Actually Bush is a lot like The Shambles...............no explanation on that one from me......make up your own...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Desdemona
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:39 PM

Dave (the ancient mariner): BWAH!!!

Cheers,

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest Statesman Ever
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:54 PM

"God comes out the winner every time! He always wins!"

??? The category is "statesman"....if God was so good at it, why are his creations forever fighting?

But there are some very good other choices already.