Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker

Subject: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:09 PM

I never read it, but I have heard it quoted, that Bob Davenport wrote a letter to the Melody Maker around 1980 where he dismissed folk artists who rally around the flags of St Andrew, St George or St Patrick, adding that they could readily be substitutes for the swaztika. Does anyone know where I could find the whole letter?

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:24 PM

Especially the twats who pretend that england celebrates st (turk) george. 90% ordinary humans don't even know who he was or what day it is!

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:10 AM

It does not really matter who St.George was or where he came from. There is nothing unusual about a mythical focus for nationalism. The facts surrounding most patron saints are pretty sparsely documented. The old nonsense about rescuing damsels in distress from fierce dragons is simply an expression of the way many English people would like to see themselves. It may be romanticised and it may be bad history. It is not an altogether bad aspiration though.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:31 AM

Anybody else old enough to remember Derek Brimstone's schtick St George and the Newt?

That guy should have been a megastar. talent wise he could piss rings round Harding, Connolly, Carrot - and all those other gits.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:27 AM

Didn't MM merge with NME some time back? Can't help I'm afraid Penguin Egg but I do have a few questions for WLD by way of refreshing your thread:-)

Why are Harding, Connolly and Carrot gits? What has it got to do with Folk artists and national flags? Why does anyone need to be old enough to know Derek's St George? I heard him perform it at our festival a couple of years back (well, maybe 3 or 4). As far as I know he is still doing it!

Just out of interest.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:43 AM

just thread drifting, I guess. I haven't heard Derek do that one for a while - I uess he must have dusted it off.

I was watching late night tv a week or two ago, and there was Connolly in some town hall in Stornoway or somewhere doing the nit nurse routine -made famous and mildly amusing in te days of Stan Boardman and The Comedians.

and I thought all to my self, if I hear one exposition about this man's creative comic genius. I will start to entertain doubts on the subject.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:58 AM

OK - Thanks WLD:-)

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:58 AM

'Harding, Connolly, Carrot - and all those other gits'

made lots of us laugh, that's all, as did Brimstone and lots and lots of others.

If they didn't make evryone laugh than erm what?

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:11 PM

Is that the same Bob Davenport who was shouting about Home Rule for Northumberland?

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM

I'd vote for that!
G.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:40 PM

Anything can be used as a substitute for the swastika. A symbol is a symbol, full stop. You choose it, ascribe meaning to it, then plaster it and shout it everywhere. It's not the symbol that's bad, but the one (ab)using it; not the knife, but the hand wielding it.

And one individual's letter does not make patriotism bad. Crimes are committed daily in the name of both patriotism and diversity. Eyes that don't try to see beyond the covers to the substance underneath are wilfully blind.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:47 PM

Howay man! Where wad ye be withoot a sense o' humour??

Me mother-in-law's front room probably!!

Anyway, back te the thread!

Whee gives a toss aboot wot Bob D said in 1980? Are wez not allowed to change as we grow? Or as fame teks us ower?

As a prime example I point oot that fine upstanding example Billy (The Occasional Socialist/Communist/Idealist/Pianist/Guitarist and man aboot toon (if the toon is a mansion in Dorset)) Bragg - Probably the best 'live' version of the Vicar of Bray

So Bob D wrote to a music Rag in 1980 - So what? Pete Coe wrote a (almost) socialist anthem called "We'll have a May Day Then" aboot when Tony B Liar and his cohorts won the next (1997) election.

Fabulous May Day this year for aall them NHS workers out o' work and aall them people whee expexted =Labour te ensure a good owld age -

Aahm bettin' sure-as-hell Mr Coe hasn't written "The Ballad Of Yawning Cherie" or "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me Another Two Jags"

Leave Bob D alone - We aall did things 20-30 years ago that we may (or may not) regret -

Taalkin' of which - me and the Missus have our 24th weddin' annivorsary next month - Some o' the great train robbers got less than that!

Gannon Man!

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 04:51 AM

Why-aye.

Is that the correct response?

:D

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 06:37 AM

Wasn't it Bob Davenport who used to have his beer at home?

It's all such a long, long time ago...

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:57 PM

Aah thowt it wez Chas & Dave

"Oi got moi beer in the sideboard here
Let Muvver sort it aht if 'e comes rahnd 'ere!"

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: shepherdlass
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:24 AM

Howay man, seriously - if anybody finds this letter and sends a copy to Penguin Eggs, any chance of me getting a copy too?

As for those who're surprised by it:- in England of 1980, nationalism was on extremely shaky ground - having been co-opted by Maggie and her true-blue/rightwing/anti-immigration/mad-as-snakes cohorts - so it's hardly surprising Bob was arguing against it.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:41 AM

From: Geordie-Peorgie......
Pete Coe wrote a (almost) socialist anthem called "We'll have a May Day Then"
.......Sorry GP, the fab Pete Coe only recorded that glorious anthem. It was written by one of Glasgow's finest, Matt McGinn.
Apologies for pedantry, but it's allus best to give correct credit where due, I feel.
Cheers! - Duncan

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: LesB
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:20 AM

Re Guest @ top of page. So in your world it's o.k. if you're Irish Welsh or Scottish to celebrate ones nationality, but if you're English you have to keep your mouth shut. Is that your point?
Les

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:03 AM

Shepherdlass, if Bob couldn't distinguish between Thatcherism and nationalism, I would worry about the validity of any arguments he might be using.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,confused of Islington
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:16 AM

we're ok to be proud to be British now..

Billy Bragg's last 'concept' CD re-apropriated "nationalism"
for us progressive left of centre types

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005UDQY/qid=1143735079/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-5896413-3840416


.. and just you lot of tory Billy baiters wait..

20 years from now it'll be 'Lord William Bragg'

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:17 AM

errrmm..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005UDQY/qid=1143735079/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-5896413-3840416

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 03:58 PM

Gerraway man!! Well Hipflask Andy! Not the forst time I've been wrang in these pages and winnit be the last nee doot!! But Thank you for the correction! Let's hope both of them have mair sense now, nine years on (Noo theor's a guid title forra song aboot new labour!!) Matt McGinn eh? Canny lad!

And.... Confused of Islington! 20 years before he's Lord William Bragg - Aah doot that! He's probably aalready gorriz ermine robes and 'is croon made and hung up in his palace in Dorset - He'll be elevated within 5 years!

But we've aalready got a Lord Bragg! mevvies he'll hev te mek dee with Sir Billy Bragg u til melvyn pops 'is clogs

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: shepherdlass
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM

El Greko - I don't think there was any confusion between Thatcherism and nationalism in too many people's brains ... apart from the Thatcherites. And therein lay the problem.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

I know you are speaking in the English language, but because it ain't the American language, I'm having some major difficulty deciphering it.   I never had trouble talking to Lou Killen. What gives? Do this be a code?

Art

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: The Admiral
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:40 PM

So, what is wrong with being English and proud of it? As already pointed out on this thread it is alright to be Scottish, Welsh and Irish, (thanks Les) all of whom celebrate their National Day (and Saints) whereas the English have to contend with such attitudes as a Liverpudlion Mayor of London (who on the whole does a good job) but who allows thousand of pounds of London ratepayers money to be spent on St Patricks Day celebrations but refuses to recognise St Georges Day.
The English have been looking for their own identity since the Welsh and Scots got their own Parliaments (kept afloat by English taxpayers incidently). Up until then we were happy to be British but now we should be allowed to enjoy pride in our own country, small and very diverse but a lot to be proud of.
During the Six Nations, all the other British Nations got their own anthems (all about beating up the English) whereas the English team (God Bless 'Em) had to put up with 'God Save the Queen', the British National Anthem, do you wonder that the English are starting to champ at the bit?
As for the Flag of St George, yes, it decended to depths with the National Party (spit) and Maggie Thatcher (double spit) but that was was decades ago, we have recaptured the flag so can we please now move on and be allowed to celebrate our own National Flag and Englishness?
If there are English people out there who want to do so and can make it, Maidenhead Folk Club is having a 'Rise Up St George' Night on the night of 20th April, all will be welcome (including the Scots, Welsh and Irish) to celebrate St George in whichever way the people want to.
Apart from that shameless plug for my own club, this all come from the heart coming from someone who considers himself to be 100% English and 50% Irish (I leave you to work that out for yourself!)
Tony

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:12 AM

Well said Admiral.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:55 AM

Hear hear

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:16 AM

Yayyy! In fact - Lets celebrate here as well! Only 24 days to go to St Georges day and I will be seeing him personaly in the week leading up to Easter:-) Just because we have a bit aof a scrap doesn't mean we do not part on good terms...

I am starting a St Georges day thread. Wonder if it will get as many takers as the St Patricks one? Tell you what - I bet it gets a lot more negative comments:-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Fidjit
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:21 AM

When last in Bishop's Stortford I bought a St Georges flag at the Turist Office. Then bought another one later as I lost the first somewhere on the street.(wrapped in a Sainsbury's bag- well it was raining!) What does that make me? Now you don't have to answer that. I'm gonna stick it up on the 23rd. So there!

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: shepherdlass
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:22 AM

There's nothing wrong with celebrating Englishness. But the political right had a habit of using the imagery of the old British Empire that made many people suspicious of any kind of nationalism from the English. It wasn't that long since the political right had taken nationalism to its furthest and vilest extreme in other parts of Europe. Also, anyone of a socialist bent (especially in the 1980s) would recognize the skepticism towards any national identity that overrode what they saw as the primary identity - of class. I just think that nowadays people in general are a lot more subtle and can see that it's not an "either-or" situation : you can have many kinds of identity that are equally valid and can intersect.

Art Thieme - yes, it's a code! It's one of the ways we hold on to our little bit of Northernness - whey lad, if we diddent dee that, we'd aall be taalkin' the Queen's English and then we wad be completely against national identity (on the basis of it being complete bollix), man.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: The Admiral
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:38 AM

It's been said Shepherdlass but as I said in my posting, it's over, normal decent people have recovered the flag and should be allowed to be proud of it and their Nationalty

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:18 AM

GP,
Nae worries man, I'll sithee.

....with apologies to Art Thieme ;^)

Cheers - HFA

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,Chigwell Charles
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:36 AM

Yes it was the "Davenports Beer At Home" adverts to which our erudite poster refers.

Nowt to do wi Chasndave.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

Aah'm Sorry??? Is sumbody sayin' the cannit understand worram sayin'?

D'ye norrunderstand the Queen's English when ye hear it man!

Yebugger! If ye divvent taalk like them posy sods on the ten o'clock news then ye dunnarf get some stick!

Admiral!! Good on yez bonny lad! Aah might just mek the journey out o' semi retirement to pay yez a visit - Say "hi" te the lovely Porl forriz!

Aah must say that aah (personally) am sick te death of us hevvin' te keep apologisin' te every bugger aroond the world for stuff we BRITISH did but it seems that everybody thinks it's owny us English wot has te tek the blame.

Mind you! Tessa F*ckin' Jowell - Culture Minister? My geordie Arse! She's even gone doon on record saying the English divvent have a culture - So nee doot we hevvent gorra history either!

And DIVVENT mention Ken Bloody Livingstone

Sorry!! Aah've gone off on one again!

See yez at Maidenhead on 20th ye buggers!!!

Gerrontivit!

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 09:25 AM

The dialects of Northumbria have a vocabulary which is 80% Anglesc in origin as opposed to a figure of 30% for standard English.
On that basis Northumbrian is the purest form of English still existent.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,Tarzan
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:32 PM

It's a well known fact that Geordies are just Scotsmen with their brains battered out.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: shepherdlass
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:24 PM

Admiral - if you'd read past the first bit of my post, that's exactly what I was saying -we've all got a tad more subtle these days!

Careful, Tarzan - that's fighting talk down the Bigg Market.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: John Routledge
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:47 PM

It also a well kown fact that Scotsmen are Geordies with their brains bashed back in again.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:44 AM

It sounds like most of you are shouting and not listening.

Many of us are fascinated by whatever 'folk' is. We play our part in local folk because that is a dimension of 'folk'. I am unclear about what people mean by pride in this context.

Most of us enjoy English music and Irish music. What has national pride got to do with it. I have to admit that the flag of St George is coming back from the far right but don't think for a second that that will make evil people less so.

The history of the British Empire was not made by our generation but we still benefit from it and are tainted by it. If you want to pick bits to be proud of go ahead. But be careful what you choose some of it was eveil and much of it is joined up.

The root of the problem in Iraq goes back to the creation of Iraq. Which of course has nothing to do with St George or Morris Dancing. But Ritual and Ceremonial dancing are not exclusively English. They are part of being human and I don't see why we cannot celebrate that.

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: Cats
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM

....And anyone who knows us will know that the first thing we do when we get to a festival site is raise St Piran's flag [ the Cornish Flag] as we are lucky enough to have our own flag down here.
.....And, yes, we both remember St George and the Newt. How old does that make us!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Bob Davenport's letter to Melody Maker
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:30 AM

Going back to the subject of 'Mr Folk Music' himself, how about 'Lord Silly Bragg'?