BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:22 PM

Several problems with invading "Kurdistan" to "eradicate" the PKK.

#1--it's next to impossible. Exhibit A--the wonderful success the US had in catching Osama in 2003. Similar situation--mountains your quarry knows--and you don't. Sympathizers among the people who really know the area.

Now the PKK has called a "ceasefire'--supposedly. After just killing about 17 Turkish soldiers.

The newly-elected Turkish government will have to do something--even if it's just a raid into "Kurdistan"-killing a few PKK members--but with no hope of actually stopping the problem.

But it sure can't rely on either the Iraqi government, the governing body of "Kurdistan", or the US to do the job.

So the wound will continue to fester.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:55 PM

If Turkey wanted to invade Iraq (Kurdistan) to eradicate the PKK, the U.S. has already set the precedent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The PKK has been branded as a terrorist sect. What makes the invasion of Iraq by Turkey any different?

If Turkey is smart, they will use economic sanctions and diplomacy to solve the problem. Maybe they will show the world that there are better ways of dealing with terrorists than invading a nation.

Then again...It would make it easier for the U.S. to withdraw from the rest of Iraq if they had to retreat to Kurdistan in the north in an effort to secure the border. It would also help the U.S. to 'save face' if they were to save the Kurds from those so-called,'genocidal' Turks.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:02 AM

WSJ: 22 Oct 2007: 17 Turkish soldiers killed by Kurdish guerillas in convoy ambush. Turkish military already has OK from Turkish parliament to retaliate. Question now becomes: will the retaliation be a series of raids into "Kurdistan" (Northern "Iraq")--or a full-scale invasion?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:33 PM

Heck, Eb... The Defense Depoartment has allready uttered the "c.w" term... Problem is that inspite of the Dod acknowledgement there is one problem... No, make that three problems:

1. There is the illadvised Congressional resolution that gave Bush the authority to go to war as a last resort... Apparently, what one thinks is a last resort is a matter of who has the power to call for the invasion...

2. Bush who is not capable of admitting that the is a perennial screw-up who has never been a success in any job his daddy has gotten him and, of course...

3. Dick Cheney, who I believe has slipped way over the edge toward being clinically mentally ill...

Not a good combination...

But, yes, Iraqmire is and has been in civil war... This is one of the things that those of us, you included, predictded during the mad-dash-to-Iraqmmire and now we have it... What we don't have are enough Dems to cut off the funding...

This reminds me of Vietnam when Congress first started trying to shut it down... But at least, we have a start...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 05:36 PM

My point in posting was to acknowledge another step to all-out civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

Reprisals are nothing new in Iraq. It will take more than a democratic election and foreign troops to change that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:10 PM

Reported an Hour Ago

"Shiite militants and police enraged by massive truck bombings in Tal Afar went on a revenge spree against Sunni residents in the northwestern town Wednesday, killing as many as 60 people, officials said.

"The gunmen roamed Sunni neighborhoods in the city through the night, shooting at residents and homes, according to police and a local Sunni politician.

"Witnesses said relatives of the Shiite victims in the truck bombings broke into the Sunni homes and killed the men inside or dragged them out and shot them in the streets.

"Ali al-Talafari, a Sunni member of the local Turkomen Front Party, said the Iraqi army had arrested 18 policemen accused of being involved after they were identified by the Sunni families targeted. But he said the attackers included Shiite militiamen."

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:11 AM

From the Wall St. Journal today, 12 Oct 2006:

"Iraqi lawmakers approved federalism plans Sunnis say could lead to a breakup."

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM

Henry Kissinger- the architect of the bombing of Cambodia, the Allende coup, and a host of other atrocities? The man is guilty of war crimes & should be in prison.

If he is indeed on the BuShite team, it explains quite a lot.

Plus ça change...

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM

Laura... and Barney? Well, our problems are over--we have a purple dinosaur backing us.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:15 PM

eporter Bob Woodward tells Mike Wallace that the Bush administration has not told the truth regarding the level of violence, especially against U.S. troops, in Iraq. He also reveals key intelligence that predicts the insurgency will grow worse next year.

In Wallace's interview with Woodward, to be broadcast on 60 Minutes this Sunday, Oct. 1, at 7 p.m. ET/PT, the reporter also claims that Henry Kissinger is among those advising Mr. Bush.

According to Woodward, insurgent attacks against coalition troops occur, on average, every 15 minutes, a shocking fact the administration has kept secret. "It's getting to the point now where there are eight-, nine-hundred attacks a week. That's more than 100 a day. That is four an hour attacking our forces," says Woodward.

The situation is getting much worse, says Woodward, despite what the White House and the Pentagon are saying in public. "The truth is that the assessment by intelligence experts is that next year, 2007, is going to get worse and, in public, you have the president and you have the Pentagon [saying], 'Oh, no, things are going to get better,'" he tells Wallace. "Now there's public, and then there's private. But what did they do with the private? They stamp it secret. No one is supposed to know," says Woodward.

"The insurgents know what they are doing. They know the level of violence and how effective they are. Who doesn't know? The American public," Woodward tells Wallace.

Woodward also reports that the president and vice president often meet with Henry Kissinger, who was President Richard Nixon's secretary of state, as an adviser. Says Woodward, "Now what's Kissinger's advice? In Iraq, he declared very simply, 'Victory is the only meaningful exit strategy.'" Woodward adds. "This is so fascinating. Kissinger's fighting the Vietnam War again because, in his view, the problem in Vietnam was we lost our will."

President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, "I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me."

Woodward reported for two years and interviewed more than 200 people, including top officials in the Bush administration, to learn these and other revelations that he makes in his latest book, State of Denial, published by Simon & Schuster, part of the CBS Corp.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:39 PM

60 more bodies found in Baghdad

Police found 60 bodies -- all showing signs of torture -- dumped around the Iraqi capital in a 24-hour period ending Thursday morning, pushing the number of bodies discovered so far this week to 122.

Most of the bodies had their hands tied and gunshot wounds to the head, Iraqi emergency police said.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:37 PM

It is quite understandable, Dave. The term is used in obscure arenas such as law. Oh, PDQ, you misunderstand the use made in Dave's post. Some references:
In law, a matter is moot if further legal proceedings with regard to it can have no effect, or events have placed it beyond the reach of the law. Thereby the matter has been deprived of practical significance or rendered purely academic. This is a little different from the ordinary meaning of moot, which means to raise an issue. The shift in usage was first observed in the United States.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moot

A moot case or a moot point is one not subject to a judicial determination because it involves an abstract question or a pretended controversy that has not yet actually arisen or has already passed. Mootness usually refers to a court's refusal to consider a case because the issue involved has been resolved prior to the court's decision, leaving nothing that would be affected by the court's decision.
brandonlclark.com/glossary.html

---

Thus, in the context Dave used, he meant that further discussion would have no bearing, or be unproductive, not that further discussion was merited.

'Nuff said.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:29 PM

The mute spelling is a development that has come about because moot is now a fossil word, usually encountered only in this phrase; there is an understandable tendency to convert the unknown into the known, and mute seems to fit the new meaning rather better, but it's wrong.
Having admitted that to Amos, I think we can close this issue?

I have never been to college or university. I left school at 15 and started my career at sea. By age 19 I was a Third Navigating Officer on a foreign going ship. I think it is fairly obvious I have since educated myself to a reasonable level of competancy in the English language, but make no claims to being an expert at it.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:23 AM

CAIRO (AP) — The new leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq said in an audio message posted on a website Thursday that more than 4,000 foreign insurgent fighters have been killed in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
It was believed to be the first major statement from insurgents in Iraq about their losses.

"The blood has been spilled in Iraq of more than 4,000 foreigners who came to fight," said the man, who identified himself as Abu Hamza al-Muhajir — also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri — the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq. The voice could not be independently identified.

The Arabic word he used indicated he was speaking about foreigners who joined the insurgency in Iraq, not coalition troops.

Al-Masri is believed to have succeeded Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who died in a U.S. airstrike north of Baghdad in June.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:52 AM

More of this poll here

Of all organizations and individuals assessed in the poll, Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization received the most negative ratings.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:41 AM

More news from that WKLR (well-known leftist rag), the Wall St Journal, today (28 Sept 2006)

"US troops klled 8 Iraqis in a firefight that led to mistaken-identity accusations"

"A University of Maryland Iraqi poll says 60% back attacks on Americans."

"Kurdish leaders threaten to secede if Baghdad moves to block oil contracts they negotiate."

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:40 PM

pdq--

But don't worry--Bush supporters are not expected to know such things.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 08:38 PM

Uh, sorry pdq--"moot" in a dictionary may have the meaning you describe.

But in educated circles--perhaps that doesn't include yours-- the expression "moot point" usually means exactly what Amos said it did. You can see this by checking virtually every use of "moot point" in speech and writing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 10:49 PM

cool daddyo

here is some of that new Iraq jazz singin I'm puttin out



here is a number we do that used to be about an analyst and his patient.


"My president told me
That we really needed a war

he told me we'd win it
just like he had beat poor Gore


We'll take Baghdad and we'll get right out
Capture Saddam and the people will shout

Now do you still think he's crazy?
no more ifs or ands or buts..."

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 09:29 PM

Aye Davey: I suppose your calling me names is an example of the sort of logical debate you were lecturing and hectoring me about a while back.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

Already a sadder and wiser man GregF. I have better things to do that debate with wankers like you. You can carry on being pathetic...

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Dave: No thanks, Mate; your interpretation of "education"- i.e. learning to swallow bullshit at face value- doesn't appeal.

YOU might want to educate yourself by reading the Project For A New American Century &c.

Perhaps, like your namesake, one day you'll awake a sadder but wiser man.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:08 PM

Here, have a hanky Greg. Poor fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:56 AM

Actually, 'moot' means 'open for discussion' - a point that is unsettled and needs further debate. Correcting people is rude enough, but 'correcting' someone who is right is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:38 AM

Quite So Amos, thanks for correcting my poor English. I'm afraid illness causes me to make too many typo's and mix up my metaphors these days; which is why i'm being put out to pasture this year, my days of stress soon will be over (to paraphrase an old song)...Time to potter in my garden, and forget about politics eh mate? ;-)

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

DTaM:

You mean, I think, a "moot" point (one about which further discussion is of no use) rather than a "mute" point (one which makes no sound).

The notion that the US' policies toward Iraq have actually increased the numbers and strength of radical Islamist militants is borne out by every intelligence agency in the United States according to recent news report on their findings.

We can all use additional education in the intricacies of a very messy, irrational and potentially harmful scene. One good idea is to cleave to the notion that saying "Death to Americans" is not a crime; but causing death to Americans (or Canadians) probably is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM

Mute point..

A: I am a Canadian/British Citizen and not a Bush political supporter

B: Work with the Military and worked in support of a Middle East Peace Initiative

D: The First Gulf War had the direct support of 35 other countries

And Greg, check out the number of stated goals of radical Islam. You really need to get educated mate.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM

Oh, great- looks like Fat Old Woody has discovered the old and threadbare "delete your cookie and post as a nameless guest" gambit.

Some folks never progress beyond junior high school.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM

I expect these announcements of developments in Iraq are supposed to convince us that this time for sure, it's really the "turning point".

Yeah, right.

We'll see.

Pardon the skepticism.

For instance, note that the capture of the al-Qaeda bigwig was made announced on 4 September. Sure is good to note that since that time there's been no violence at all in Iraq.

Right?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:05 PM

A leader of Qaeda is arrested in Iraq
By Richard A. Oppel Jr. The New York Times

Published: September 4, 2006
BAGHDAD Iraq's national security adviser said Sunday that American and Iraqi troops had captured a senior Al Qaeda figure who supervised the planners and perpetrators of the bombing of a revered Shiite shrine in Samarra in February that set off a wave of brutal sectarian violence.

In a statement on national television, the adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, said that Hamid Juma Faris Jouri al-Saeedi, who was described as the second-ranking Qaeda leader in Iraq, had been captured in the past few days at an undisclosed location as he hid among Iraqi families in a residential building.

Rubaie said Saeedi had been operating near Baquba, north of Baghdad, in the area where the leader of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, had sought refuge before he was killed by an American airstrike three months ago.

Rubaie described Saeedi as Al Qaeda's deputy commander in Iraq, serving beneath Abu Ayub al-Masri, the man who took over the organization after Zarqawi's death. If that characterization is true, it would suggest that Saeedi is the most senior Al Qaeda leader killed or captured since Zarqawi died when an American jet bombed his safe house in June.

But an American military official was more cautious in describing Saeedi's place in the Qaeda pecking order.

While Saeedi was certainly a "top- tier guy" who supervised the insurgents who carried out the Samarra mosque bombing, "I'm not sure we are ready to put a number on him," the American official said. "It's a very decentralized operation."

The news came as the U.S. military reported Sunday the deaths of four servicemen: Two were marines killed in separate insurgent attacks Friday and Sunday in Anbar Province; the other two were soldiers killed Sunday morning in eastern Baghdad when a roadside bomb struck their vehicle.

Iraqi officials have asserted that Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia has been severely weakened by the deaths or capture of terrorist leaders in recent months, and Rubaie said Sunday that the terror group now faced a serious "leadership crisis."

After his arrest, Saeedi gave interrogators information that has led to the arrest or killing of 11 high-level Qaeda operatives and 9 others, he said.

Rubaie did not describe the specific roles of Iraqi and American forces in the capture of Saeedi but said the operation showed the proficiency of Iraqi forces "backed up by multinational forces."

Despite the high-profile killing of Zarqawi and other operations against Al Qaeda, attacks have soared in recent months and Iraq has tipped closer to the all-out civil war that Zarqawi had tried hard to foment.

Even the Pentagon acknowledged in a report last week that Iraqi casualties had risen by more than 50 percent in recent months and that the Baghdad coroner's office reported that 9 out of every 10 bodies it took in during July - 1,800 in total - were thought to have been executed.

Most of those deaths have been attributed to violence between Iraq's Shiite majority and the Sunni Arab minority, carried out by militiamen and insurgents.

Executions and other sectarian killings have been common for well more than a year, but they intensified after Feb. 22, when insurgents bombed the golden-domed Askariya Shrine in Samarra, one of the holiest Shiite sites.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:54 PM

Most Tribes in Anbar Agree to Unite Against Insurgents

BAGHDAD, Sept. 17 Nearly all the tribes from Iraq's volatile Sunni-dominated Anbar Province have agreed to join forces and fight Al Qaeda insurgents and other foreign-backed terrorists, an influential tribal leader said Sunday. Iraqi government leaders encouraged the movement.

Twenty-five of about 31 tribes in Anbar, a vast, mostly desert region that stretches westward from Baghdad to the borders of Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, have united against insurgents and gangs that are killing people for no reason, said the tribal leader, Sheik Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi.

We held a meeting earlier and agreed to fight those who call themselves mujahadeen, Mr. Rishawi said in an interview. We believe that there is a conspiracy against our Iraqi people. Those terrorists claimed that they are fighters working on liberating Iraq, but they turned out to be killers. Now all the people are fed up and have turned against them.

It is unclear how quickly or forcefully the tribal fighters will confront Al Qaeda and other insurgents, who mostly operate in and around the provincial capital, Ramadi, despite recurrent American military efforts to stop them. But for American and Iraqi officials, who have tried to persuade the Sunni Arab majority in Anbar to reject the insurgency and embrace Iraqi nationalism, Mr. Rishawi's comments are seen as an encouraging sign.

Word of the tribal agreement came on a day when coordinated suicide bombings rocked Kirkuk and Falluja, and graphic evidence of more sectarian killings surfaced in Baghdad.

In Kirkuk, an oil-rich city in the north bordering the autonomous Kurdish region, suicide bombers detonated four cars and one truck laden with explosives, killing more than two dozen people and wounding more than 100, Iraqi and American officials said. In Falluja, a Sunni-controlled city in Anbar, 30 miles west of Baghdad, five suicide car bombs exploded within 15 minutes, an American military official said, killing five people and wounding 23.

The police in Baghdad reported finding 36 bodies in several neighborhoods, an Interior Ministry official said. Eight were discovered in one area with gunshot wounds to the head and bearing marks of torture. But an American military spokesman said her office was aware of only 11 bodies found.

Also Sunday, the American military said a sailor with the First Marine Logistics Group died Saturday from wounds in fighting in Anbar Province.

Mr. Rishawi said the 25 tribes counted 30,000 young men armed with assault rifles who were willing to confront and kill the insurgents and criminal gangs that he blamed for damaging tribal life in Anbar, dividing members by religious sect and driving a wave of violent crime in Ramadi.

We are in battle with the terrorists who kill Sunnis and Shiites, and we do not respect anyone between us who talks in a sectarian sense, said Mr. Rishawi, the leader of the Rishawi tribe, a subset of the Dulaimi tribe, the largest in Anbar. Half the Rishawi are Shiite Arabs and half are Sunni, he said.

Mr. Rishawi estimated that the insurgents had about 1,300 fighters, many of them foreigners, and are backed by other nations intelligence services, though he declined to specify them.

On Sunday, he said the coalition of 25 tribes sent letters to the prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, and other top government officials to seek their support.

Sheik Fassal al-Guood, a prominent tribal leader from Ramadi, said Sheik Khalid al-Attiya, the deputy speaker of Parliament and a Shiite, met with the tribal leaders Thursday and gave them a positive response.

In addition to the government's blessing, Mr. Guood said, the tribes also wanted weapons, equipment and tactical help from an Iraqi Army brigade. The terrorists have different kinds of weapons while we have only AK-47s, Mr. Guood said. He predicted that with sufficient help, their force will collapse in one month.

Ali Dabbagh, a government spokesman, said Mr. Maliki supported any operations that try to resist terrorism and aims to maintain security in this dear and important part from the country.

Government officials are weighing an official response to the tribes, Mr. Dabbagh said, but there has not been any agreement to supply them. We are grateful to them for their desire to protect their cities, he said, and we are encouraging them.

An American military official said tribes had fought Sunni insurgents in Anbar in the past but had never formed a united front. This would be the first we've seen of tribes banding together, said the official, who asked for anonymity because the subject was a delicate one.

Reuters quoted a man who identified himself as a senior Al Qaeda leader in northern Ramadi calling for an Islamic caliphate in Anbar and portraying tribal leaders as the enemy.

We have the right to kill all infidels, like the police and army and all those who support them, said the man, who called himself Abu Farouk, Reuters reported. This tribal system is un-Islamic. We are proud to kill tribal leaders who are helping the Americans.

Last month, a Marine intelligence report described Al Qaeda as an integral part of the social fabric of Anbar, and said the American military, with about 30,000 troops there, did not control vast reaches of the province, roughly the size of Louisiana.

In Kirkuk, Iraqi and American military officials said they could not immediately tell which groups were behind the suicide bomb attacks. Kirkuk has become a violent battleground between Iraqi Arabs Shiite and Sunni and Kurds who control Kirkuk's police and government.

The deadliest of the Kirkuk bomb attacks, by a truck laden with explosives that blew up between the offices of two Kurdish political parties, killed at least 18 people and wounded 55, said Lt. Col. Urhan Abdullah of the Kirkuk police. Two minutes later, a car bomb, apparently intended for a private security firm, killed two people and wounded three others, said Maj. Farhad Mahmoud of the Kirkuk police.

A third suicide car bomb detonated near an Iraqi police checkpoint about 15 miles south of Kirkuk, the police said. A fourth car bomb exploded in front of the house of Sheik Wasfi al-Asi, who had recently publicly called on the government to release Saddam Hussein, who is currently being tried on genocide charges. The house was empty, the police said, but the bomb killed two people and wounded five others.

Firefighters battled flames at collapsed buildings and charred bodies lay in streets littered with twisted car parts, Reuters reported.

Reporting was contributed by Paul von Zielbauer, Omar al-Neami, Khalid W. Hassan and Qais Mizher.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 06:57 PM

Jeez, Dave, the BuShites must absolutely love you- you've fallen for their BS hook, line & sinker: terrified & pissing your pants over a largely phantom Internatinal Islamic Conspiracy. You checked under your bed for terrorists lately?

The 'logical argument" you claim to employ should also exhibit a sense of proportion and perspective. Your chances of being killed by "Godless Terrorism" are virtually nil. A good deal less likely than your being struck by lightening or killed in a nuclear- 'scuse me Noo-Cue-Lar- power plant accident. Your chances of being killed by a drunk driver, on the other hand, are pretty good.

Course, if the good old Red White and Blue doesn't change course & keeps manufacturing NEW terrorists at the rate it currently is, your Jeremiad may prove true. They don't "Hate Freedom"- they hate the U.S.'s arrogance, military intervention and economic and cultural imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

>>Yup, the USA is involved in one hell of a mess, self created; should have finished the job during the first Gulf War (as I have always stated and did so at the time)<<

All that would have accomplished is that we'd have been in this quagmire for 15 years instead of 3.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:37 AM

Yup, the USA is involved in one hell of a mess, self created; should have finished the job during the first Gulf War (as I have always stated and did so at the time) Iraq will have to find it's own solutions, and are starting to do so. It will be a bloody mess for a long time, but at least there are signs that it will happen. Of course Iran and other outside groups will try to balls it all up, and that is not news.

As for radical Islam getting worse... The media have ignored the past twenty years of radical islam and only since 911 has it become news. This is not new, it has being going on largely ignored for years. Since 911 every act of terror has become the "fault" of the USA. Simply not true old mate. Is it getting worse? yes it is, and we can no longer ignore it, hoping it will go away by itself...

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM

At least I don't use newspapers for all my information...

What reliable sources of information DO you, use, Dave? White House press releases?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:22 AM

How 'bout what these troops witnessed in Eye-Rack, Dave?

-----------------

Retired officers to criticize Rumsfeld [ excerpts ]

By DAVID ESPO, Associated Press
Last updated: 7:15 a.m., Monday, September 25, 2006

WASHINGTON -- Retired military officers on Monday are expected to bluntly accuse Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld of bungling the war in Iraq, saying U.S. troops were sent to fight without the best equipment and that critical facts were hidden from the public.
        
"I believe that Secretary Rumsfeld and others in the administration did not tell the American people the truth for fear of losing support for the war in Iraq," retired Maj. Gen. John R. S. Batiste, who commanded the Army's 1st Infantry Division in Iraq, said in remarks prepared for a hearing by the Senate Democratic Policy Committee.

A second witness, retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, is expected to assess Rumsfeld as "incompetent strategically, operationally and tactically ...."

Since last week, a government-produced National Intelligence Estimate became public that concluded the war has helped create a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

It is unusual for retired military officers to criticize the Pentagon while military operations are under way, particularly at a public event likely to draw widespread media attention.

But Batiste, Eaton and retired Col. Paul X. Hammes were unsparing in remarks that suggested deep anger at the way the military had been treated. All three served in Iraq, and Batiste also was senior military assistant to then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz.

Batiste said Rumsfeld at one point threatened to fire the next person who mentioned the need for a postwar plan in Iraq.

Batiste said if full consideration had been given to the requirements for war, it's likely the U.S. would have kept its focus on Afghanistan, "not fueled Islamic fundamentalism across the globe, and not created more enemies than there were insurgents."

more HERE
and HERE

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM

Tribal leaders in the largely Sunni province..

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:57 AM

At least I don't use newspapers for all my information Guest....unlike you of course....U.S. troops continue to be mystified at the odd reporting coming out of Iraq. What the troops witnessed is not what reporters are sending back. The bylines on those stories are American, as are the talking heads they see broadcasting from Baghdad. Some troops attribute the inaccurate reporting to bias, with journalists sending back what they want to be the truth, rather than what is actually happening. The troops see a very different Iraq from the one journalists are reporting.

But the fact of the matter is that few of these journalists are reporting much. On any given day, fewer than a dozen reporters are embedded with combat units, and actually out there. A third or more of these are working for military oriented publications ("Stars and Stripes," Armed Forces Network). Most journalists are in the Green Zone, or some well-guarded hotel. There, they depend on Iraqi stringers to gather information, and take pictures for them. In reality, these reporters could do this from back home, and many more media organizations are doing just that.

Nothing new about using local stringers in dangerous areas. It's common sense, given that the bad guys are in the habit of kidnapping, or just killing, foreign reporters. The problem is, the pool of available Iraqi talent is mostly Sunni Arab. Many of these folks side with the bad guys. And all Iraqi journalists, especially those working for foreigners, are subject to intimidation, or bribery. While some of the foreign reporters may be aware of all this, some aren't, and many of the rest don't care. The truth won't set them free, but supplying stories their editors are looking for, will.

It wasn't always this way, but that's the way it is these days. And, sadly, about the only people to notice the problem are the many troops who have been in Iraq, and don't have an editor telling them what to think, and report.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 01:56 AM

"Tribal leaders in the largely Sunni province on the Syrian border got together and signed an agreement to raise a tribal force of 30,000 fighters to take on foreign fighters and terrorists."

Thats a pretty big statement without giving a source.

I'll chalk it up to BS unless a credible source is given.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 11:14 PM

MIL-IRAQ-DEFENSE
Top militants, including two Saudis, Killed in Mosul raid - spokesman

(With Mil-Iraq-Arrest) BAGHDAD, SEPT 23 (KUNA) -- Iraqi armed forces have killed a number of members of Al-Tawheed and Jihad group, including two Saudis, during a raid in the village of Al-Salman near the northern city of Mosul, a Ministry of Defense spokesman said Saturday.

"Units of Iraqi army's fourth corps managed to kill a number of dangerous and fugitive terrorists who were members of the banned Al-Tawheed and Jihad group during a raid near Mosul a few days ago," said Mohammad Al-Askari.

The spokesman said Iraqi forces killed three top Iraqi and two Saudi lieutenants of the insurgency group during the clashes and wounded a sixth who is being interrogated.

Earlier, the office of Iraq' armed forces general commander had reported the capture of the leader of the Ansar Al-Sunna group in the town of Makdadiya, 80 kilometers northeast of Baghdad.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

"of a bloodbath"

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:56 PM

"For the record I have no absolutely no animosity for Ron Davies, Don Firth or Kendall Morse. I like them all"--pdq, recently.


No animosity--but he reserves the right to call us traitors or imply that we're in favor or a bloodbath. Interesting interpretation of "no animosity".

Thanks, I love you too.


And I'll be waiting for that evidence on the Iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 04:40 PM

When the Bushites finish ranting and raving, it would be appreciated if they would be so good as to give--any--evidence that the Iraq invasion was not a mistake.

Remembering the "Pottery Barn" rule.

And remembering Mr. Bush's recent answer to the query as to what connection there was between 9-11 and Saddam. As I recall, the answer was "None".

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM

A mad gunman goes on a shooting rampge and kills many people.

A cop pulls out a rifle and drops the bastard.

Liberals call the cop a 'bloody killer'.

Sane people call the gunman a murderer and call the cop a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:02 PM

Your sense of causation is wunnerful awry, PDQ. President Bush individually and alone signed the marching orders that brought about thousands of -- perhaps hundreds of thousands -- of violent deaths and maimings. Giving the orders IS a point of complete responsibility. Just because he was safe in the Oval Orifice and did not have to fire rockets, drop bombs, or shoot a rufle personally does not change the trail of direct causation.

And, I might stress, he did it with full intention, complete lack of remorse, and no sense of consequences, which are symptoms one finds in many criminals.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM

Here are some numbers to think about. Bloodbath?

            Deaths caused by Saddam Hussien (1.4 million/24 years :          159 /day

            Deaths (violent) in Iraq since the 2003 liberation:                            14 /day

            Deaths caused by president Bush (ever):                                             
0

            Death in US by violent crime:                                                                   70 /day

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:43 PM

Sources LOL ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM

>>If one didn't know better, one might think Ron Davies were hoping for a bloodbath in Iraq just so he could claim it was Bush's fault.<<

There already IS a bloodbath in Iraq, you idiot, and it IS Bush's fault. Good fucking lord.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq! ...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:25 PM

Dave:

Your well written post about the initiative of tribal leaders...where did it come from?

A