BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:27 PM

I dunno guys ..... beatnik sounds kinda like a Roosian (conspiracy) word to me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:28 PM

The prototype, or "concept" design for a hippy, which was modified when put into actual mass production.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:06 PM

Hippies wore sandals, beatniks wore boots. Old hippies wear boots too. QED

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

"The prototype, or "concept" design for a hippy, which was modified when put into actual mass production."

This prototype failed frogprince ... since the results was Generation X.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:06 PM

Man, six, don't square the scene -- the beats were the first to groove, to dig the scene, to yearn for hepness which was hipness. They married Chicago jazz to Bird to Zen to the Avatar of Tao, and dug the sorry shadows cast on the endless rolling watery Mississippi of time by the battered reeds and bent trees of modern America, and of all thisi that they saw they sang, and drummed, and wrote of it in poetry, and drank of it in espresso.

These beats were cool, and they came forth from their pads to the good places where their voices could be heard, snap[ping their fingers tot he cosmic Akashic bongos of Infinite Time, pulsing in their veins. These were the forebears of Ginsberg and the ancestors of the hippies who came after them, and of the flower children who swarmed after the hippies.

They were the hipsters, the flipsters, the strung out midnight racers of the soul, the transcontinental mourners of higher consciousness in the raceways of the grate American Circle of hell itself, blowing the sweet licks of Dharma's righteous rhythms and scales in the face of all the daemons of down and of morose, and lay back in the scowls of the satans of satiny conformance and political correctitude, and made the scene high and sweet even in the sufferingest of the pits of Ho-Jo and of Texaco across the straining bosom of the tortured land.

This, and more, were the beatniks, those shaggy heroes and heroines of Divine phenomenology, whose seeds went forth and painted the world a hipper color of high and a smoother color of cool in the days before you were a gleam of tantric potential in the aether. They were the mothers and fathers of the Groove from which, as we all know, all things groovy are born.

Any questions?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:08 PM

Great writing, Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:13 PM

They where a lot hipper than the hippies Amos.

They made more of an impact to the arts, philosphy and society than what they had been credited for ... Overshadowed in history by the 'not so hip' hippies.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:15 PM

"Like, man, I think I'm dyng; call me an ambulance"
"Groovy, man; like, you're and ambulance".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:16 PM

One famous 'beatnik' was the comedian Lenny Bruce ... he had much disdain for the hippies who where merging upon the scene at the time of his sudden death.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Might as well get this thread rolling to the end ... then there was the Bohemians, I'm referring to the Bloomsbury set, those anti-bourgeois writers who lived and gathered in Mayfair, who set a precedent to the 'beatniks' ...... or did they?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:29 PM

Indeed, the Bohemians were the predessors to the Beatniks and were totally incredibly cool in their time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:00 PM

And of course let of us not forget Maynard G. Crebbs, who like all beatniks turned into Little Buddy.

Christ, I can't take this place and this type of ranting seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

Ommmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:04 PM

I don't know, sIx...

The beaty might have planted the seeds but it was the hippies who got out there and *worked* to change the nation consciousness on "ism's" and it's support for the Vietnam War...

But, hey, don't get me wrong... The beats definately got did some heavy lifting in terms of culture...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Peace, Martin said "ranting" not "chanting".

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:18 PM

Rommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:18 PM

However, you get brownie points for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:21 PM

Cross-posted.


Here's another one

Hooooooom [ie]

[not that this has anything to do with hippies]

But anything goes in hippie-dom, right?

Or is that another stereotype that needs to be kicked to the curb?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

All stereotypes have some truth to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:20 PM

A good rationalization for trafficking only in stereotypes, Martin....not! :D



A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:42 PM

"Beatnik" was slang (part of the fad for -nik following on Sputnik in 1957) for "beat" = member of the Beat Generation, a term popularized by John Clellon Holmes in a rather sensational article in the New York Times Magazine in 1952, and attributed by him to Jack Kerouac. For him, it meant his own generation, which was adolescent during W.W. II -- too young to have fought in it, but old enough to have been shaken up by it. "The peace they inherited was only as secure as the next headline. It was a cold peace. Their own lust for freedom, and their ability to live at a pace that kills, to which war had adjusted them, led to black markets, bebop, narcotics, sexual promiscuity, hucksterism and Jean-Paul Sartre. The beatness set in later."

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: People would never fall in love if they hadn't heard of it. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

Here's an excerpt from an online article about the term "beatnik". That article begins with the statement that the term "The Beat Generation" was coined by Jack Kerouac in a 1948 conversation with novelist John Clellon Holmes, who went on to write a New York Times article about it, 'This Is The Beat Generation'.


"...In fact the original word meant nothing more than 'bad' or 'ruined' or 'spent.' We all use the word this way. When somebody is trying to get one last hit out of a bowl of weed and there's nothing but ashes left, you say 'Don't bother, it's beat.' Or when you're tired: 'I'm beat.' There's beaten-down, beaten-up and beaten-out. The connotation is defeat, resignation, disappointment.

That kind of beatness is what Kerouac was describing in himself and his friends, bright young Americans who'd come of age during the Second World War but couldn't fit in as clean-cut soldiers or complacent young businessmen. They were 'beat' because they didn't believe in straight jobs and had to struggle to survive, living in dirty apartments, selling drugs or committing crimes for food money, hitchhiking across the country because they couldn't stay still without getting bored. The phrase 'Beat Generation' was meant to echo Ernest Hemingway's description of his own crowd (which came of age during the First World War) as the 'Lost Generation,' a phrase Hemingway picked up from an off-hand remark made by Gertrude Stein.

But the term 'beat' has a second meaning: 'beatific' or sacred and holy. Kerouac, a devout Catholic, explained many times that by describing his generation as beat he was trying to capture the secret holiness of the downtrodden. In fact, this is probably the most central theme in Kerouac's work (think of the saintly hobos and lonely truck drivers of 'On The Road' and 'The Dharma Bums')".

Source: http://www.litkicks.com/Topics/BeatEtymology.html

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:38 PM

The article that I referred to in my last post is titled
Lost, Beat, and Hip .

A portion of the article discusses the etymology of the word "hip":

"...I don't know the derivation of the term 'Hipster'..., but I could make a totally uninformed guess that it originally referred to hip flasks -- that is, that a 'hipster' carried liquor on his hip instead of hidden in his boot like a 'bootlegger.' I may be totally wrong here, though. I've also heard that 'hip' started with 'hep,' which would mean that my hip flask theory is wrong, and I have no idea where 'hep' came from. I've heard that Ken Kesey has a theory that the word came from Chinese opium smokers who reclined on their hips while they smoked. I've also heard that the word comes from West Africa via the Gullah dialect spoken in the Sea Islands off the coast of South Carolina. A hipicat denotes a person attuned to his environment, literally with 'eyes open.' Somebody else emailed me that it comes from the military-march utterance "Hup!" as in "Hup-two-three-four," but I don't get what the connection would be here.."

-snip-

I believe that a word can have multiple origins for the same meaning [and for different meanings]. Needless to say, I like the Wolof [Senegal and The Gambia} theory that the origin of the term "hepcat" was popularized by late 1930s/1940s jive talkin jazzmen. As to the "Cry Wolof" debunkers of this theory [see this article for example: http://www.slate.com/id/2110811/], my view is that the fact that the Wolof language has no "h" and the actual word was spelled 'xippi' can be explained by the folk process [since the "x" in that language is pronounced like an "h"].

Jesse Sheidlower and the rest of the "Cry Wolof" crowd argue that "hep" or "hip" didn't gain popular currency by Black folks until it became a 1940s jive * term. *"jive" here meaning "up to date"/"street wise"/"in the latest fashion" and not the alternative contemporary meaning of "sorry ass"/fake"}. Sheidlower and his followers [I suppose he has some] seem to hold the view that since the positive meaning of the word "hip" wasn't a part of Black lingo before the 1930s [i.e. it wasn't used by enslaved African Americans]then African Americans couldn't have gotten it from Africa.

First off, if there were attempts to document the opinion that the word "hip" wasn't used in this way by 17th, 18th, or 19th century African Americans, I'd love to see such research. And even if my ancestors weren't hip to that word then, again, we do folk process well [meaning Black folks love to create new words, and stretch or completely change the meaning of already existing words]. Besides, who's to say that some African American couldn't have traveled to Senegal or The Gambia and brought the word "hipicat" back home with him [or her]? Or a Wolof speaking student or tourist from Senegal or The Gambia could have traveled to the United States, hooked up with some brother or sister and "hepped" him or her to that the word "xippicat".

What an idea! How amazing that Black people from two different continents could have shared culture with each other, and then with the rest of the world!

Remarkable!!


Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:01 AM

Amos, you seem to have a real problem. I merely said that all stereotypes have some truth in them. Do you deny that? I think that you just are a wimp who is just easily offended by the existance of stereotypes. They are obviously one of your great "social injustices." All I say is that they exist and originated for some conceptions found in differences in people. Quite frankly, why pretend that they do not exist. They probably will never go away. There is no Utopia, Amos. There just is what there is.

You bore many with your self-righteous political correctness, Amos.

You amuse many with your pseudo-intellectualism on a web forum that has zero impact.

You are basically ignored by many who really don't give a damn what your opinion is anyway, myself included.

You are just an old Mudcat hippie, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:27 AM

Well I guess my attempt to change the subject [from a discussion of stereotypes] didn't work. So what the heck. I can talk about stereotypes too.

Martin, even though you didn't direct your statement about stereotypes to me, I have a question for you.

Are you an absolutist?

After all you said "all stereotypes have some truth in them."
Now if you had said "some stereotypes have some truth in them, I'd agree.

But to focus on two "minority" populations, there's quite a number of negative stereotypes out there about Jewish people and there are quite a number of negative stereotypes about Black people.

Are you saying that all of those stereotypes have some truth in them?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 01:16 AM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:01 AM

Azizi, to some degree, yes. From lazy blacks to big-nosed Jews, to Catholics with way too many kids, and white trash in trailer courts.

All of this in 2006 is out there. I am not at all saying I promote it. I am not denying that it still doesn't exist. There are also stereotypes out there that are exaggerated.

I actually just ignore then for the most part. But they are not all just myth. People observe groups of others that are different from themselves, and opinions are formed. What else can "cause" a stereotype? Stereotypes are not just caused by one person's opinion. You may not like them, but how you yourself get past them as an individual is what really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:19 AM

Martin,

Neither you nor anyone else is going to cause me to highjack your interesting thread on hippies any further than I have.

Suffice it to say that I'm not an absolutist about stereotypes or most anything else.

[Ha! I almost made an absolutist statement!!]

If the spirit moves me, I'll continue this discussion about stereotypes at another time and in what I consider to be a more appropriate thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 09:08 AM

Could we get back to outing old hippies please? I bet a lot of you frazzled crincklies now have 'bread head' jobs that would make your dads proud eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:19 AM

LOL ... good one Ted!!

BTW ... I do. I bet most of us do in fact. Bottom line we all probably did 'cop' out in the long run.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:23 AM

Part of the Big Machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:25 AM

And we are all stokin the fire of it's engines.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:40 AM

I'm stokin' my woodstove.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:43 AM

Me too ... the goddamned capitalists are chargin too much for power to heat the house!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:51 AM

Right on!

Power to the People!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Good answer, Martin. I think you are probably correct. Close to it, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Martin:

Wrong again, amigo. I don't have a real problem. The only problem "I" have is in your fetid imagining. Which is exactly what I was talking about. But I know better than to do what I am doing right now, which is discussing stuff with you, which is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It just annoys the pig and wastes my time. So I am going to stop now.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

I knew that sooner or later MG would say something I agreed with. If a stereotype didn't have some truth in it, it wouldn't work, even as an insult. Stereotypes are caricatures, and caricatures have to have some truth in them.

Stereotypes do shine a light in some particular aspect of the truth. When people try to generalise them into something wider ranging they becomes lies.

Sometimes of course you get outright lies, but that's a different thing. The typical Paddy joke you fin dinn Engkand (similar to the Poilish jones you have in the States, based on the idea that the Irish are thick is an example; on the other hand stereotypes about drinking and fighting and blarney and so forth are valid enough, though only part of the truth.

Most of the stereoypes about hippies have that kind of partial truth. At the same time, as with national or sexual gender stereotypes, for every single element in them you could come up with people who would clearly fall within the group concerneed, but wouldn't share that particular characteristic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:23 PM

I prefer monotype.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:26 PM

Which brings us to the question ... whatever happened to quadrophonics?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:28 PM

Of course stereotypes have some truth in them. For example, all American Indians walk in single file.

At least the one I saw did.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

He must have been deaf in 1 ear Don ... if he was walking single file west he would have been deaf in the right ear, if he was walking single file east, then of course he was deaf in the left ear. You have to watch out for the ones walking east, they are all communists.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

"Which brings us to the question ... whatever happened to quadrophonics?"

Which brings us to yet another question: what happened to eight track tapes?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:36 PM

I've heard they end up in garage sales.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Janie
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM

I'm saving mine until it becomes an antique. It will be especially valuable with the chewed up tape still stuck in it!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

"I've heard they end up in garage sales."

What? So now I gotta buy a garage to get an eight track tape? Geeze . . . .



"I'm saving mine until it becomes an antique. It will be especially valuable with the chewed up tape still stuck in it!"

THAT will be a collector's item.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:50 PM

Now, if you deal in stereotypes, and you suddenly broaden your horizons by a factor of two, do you start thinking in quadrotypes?

Oscillating minds want to know.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM

Amos, that is exactly the 1 millionth time you have responded that you won't deal with what I say.

You always do and you always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:11 PM

And to the power of -1 is it then monoral?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat's Old Hippies
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:00 PM

"And to the power of -1 is it then monoral?"

Wouldn't that make it the reciprocal - oral mon?