BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:33 AM

Obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

CarolC, you are obviously the final arbiter and authority on what is fact, what is fiction, what is in dispute, etc., on any questions pertaining to the Palestinian/Israeli issue.

Obviously, the major failing of the Bush administartion is that it has not called on your vast knowledge and wisdom to step in and settle the issue once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:18 AM

If the links I post contain information that disputes other information, I do sometimes point out that it is a "fact" that is in dispute. Sometimes the information contained the links I post links is not in dispute, however. And sometimes it is a debunking of what has previously been considered to be "fact". I sometimes indicate when the contents of the links I post is a debunking.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM

They may be documented, but they are in dispute, which means that they are not established "facts".

LOL

You could say exactly the same thing about most of the links that you've provided over the past four years.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 10:58 AM

CaroleC, The only thing misleading is your inability to accept what I post is docmented fact.

They may be documented, but they are in dispute, which means that they are not established "facts".

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:33 AM

No Jack, I'm not suggesting what was OK for whites in BC is OK for European Jews in Israel. I'm suggesting that's it totally hypocritical for whites in BC to silently live off the fruits of expoitation in their own homes while holding others to a higher standard.

Dianavan's anti-Semitism is evident in that she holds Jews to a different standard than she holds other people, including herself. And also in ridiculous theories about the Jews being planted in Israel (which is not an oil-producing area) to protect American oil interests in the Middle East.

BTW, the beginning of the modern Zionist movement in the late-19th cebtury, and the establishment of the State of Israel about 50 years later, took place long before oil shortages were any kind of a an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:28 AM

CaroleC, The only thing misleading is your inability to accept what I post is docmented fact.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:53 AM

C-Ham,

Assuming that what you say about B.C. is true. Your accusation of anti-semitism is groundless. It is your who are showing bigotry by implying that what was OK for Whites in B.C. is O.K. for European Jews in Israel. That view doesn't flatter anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:46 AM

Dianavan,

The ignorance and the blatant anti-Semitism displayed throughout your post of 20 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM is revealing.

The concluding statement

I do not understand how a group of countries can get together and create a new and "independent" state on land occupied by others. Its the worse form of bullying and I am always surprised when Jews condone ethnic cleansing.

is quite a laugh coming from someone living fat in British Columbia, a province almost totally occupied on disputed native lands.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Kweku
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

not a week passes by without hearing about violence in the middle east. judaism,islam and christianity all claim that this is a holy land. if so then why the hell is the spilling of blood for.

and it seems most leaders in both the west and the east seem to enjoy this barbarism. the world need peace and the earlier we realize that equal rights and justice is a must for every living creature the better. let us forget about the past and let us focus on the future.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:28 AM

I'm afraid you cannot enlighten her with fact beardedbruce, her mind is already made up..

On the contrary. My views on this subject have been evolving steadily over the last four years (approximately). I started out with views fairly similar to beardedbruce's. But about four years ago, my veiws began to change, and they have continued to evolve and change ever since. I expect that they will keep on evolving and changing as I learn more, though they will probably not ever coincide with beardedbruce's views again in the future unless his views change dramatically in the same direction as mine.

Jewish enlistments in British armed forces were heavier and their performance better than those from the Arab populations.

This is a bit misleading, since you are only addressing recruits to British armed forces. This is no indication of how many people from Arab populations served in the fight against the Axis powers overall, nor of how well they fought.

Calling them terrorists for taking a piece of their original homeland back, is like calling General Custer a freedom fighter.

Fist of all, we have not established any "facts" about whether or not the people who eventually became Ashkenazi Jews preceded the people who became Palestinians in terms of who was in the area of "Palestine" first.

And secondly, calling Palestinians terrorists for trying to keep their ancestral homes and farmlands is like calling the Allies terrorists for fighting against the Axis powers in WWII.

Calling Palestinians "Arabs" is quite misleading in terms of trying to establish their origins. This is because the people of the area that was once known as "Palestine" are not genetically any more "Arab" than are Ashkenazi Jews. They have just been "Arabized" by the Arabs who migrated to the area in later times.

Nobody can say for certain whether or not either group preceded the other in that area of the world, but I think it's probably safe to say that both groups are basically just two branches of the same ethnic family, with the same origins and the same "original homeland". The Ashkenazim left the area, the Mizrahim did not. This gives the Mizrahim as well as the non-Jewish Palestinians the greater claim to the area as their homeland.

Here is some information about the genetic origins of the "Palestinians"...

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestinian-people

"As genetic techniques have advanced, it has become possible to look directly into the question of the ancestry of the Palestinians. In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that � at least paternally � the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Palestinians, (and in some cases other Levantines) are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs (of Arabia) or non-Jewish Europeans. [11] [12] [13] [14]([15] contains more links to genetic studies of Jewish and Middle Eastern populations). These studies look at the prevalence of specific inherited genetic differences (polymorphism) among populations, which then allow the relatedness of these populations to be determined, and their ancestry to be traced back (see population genetics). These differences can be the cause of genetic disease or be completely neutral (see Single nucleotide polymorphism) ; they can be inherited maternally (mitochondrial DNA), paternally (Y chromosome), or as a mixture from both parents ; the results obtained may vary from polymorphism to polymorphism. One study [16]on congenital deafness identified an allele only found in Palestinian and Ashkenazi communities, suggesting a common origin ; an investigation [17] of a Y-chromosome polymorphism found Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic populations to be particularly closely related"


beardedbruce, the requests for documentation have been piling up and I still have several more to catch up with, it would seem. I'll try tomorrow as time permits.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM

If the concentration camps forged the state of Israel, why wasn't Israel situated in Germany? How far back in time can people claim their original homeland and according to whose history? I don't think it was a matter of collective guilt. It was more a matter of "not in my backyard".

The biggest problem with displacing Palestinians and giving their land to European Jews is that, "Support for a militant Zionism came from abroad, especially from Americans who contributed both money and pressure on their political leadership to liberalize Jewish immigration to Palestine."

There are two reasons Americans supported the creation of Israel.

1. Israel is strategically located near the oil fields.

2. The U.S. did not want to deal with the large number of Jewish immigrants who needed homes after the World War II.

I do not understand how a group of countries can get together and create a new and "independent" state on land occupied by others. Its the worse form of bullying and I am always surprised when Jews condone ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:51 PM

British commitment to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, dating back to 1917, was compromised in 1939 by the McDonald White Paper. This policy statement may have mollified Arab opinion, as intended, but it certainly alienated Zionist Jews as its enforcement prevented the free settlement of Holocaust refugees. Yet as long as Hitler remained the common enemy, differences were muted. Jewish enlistments in British armed forces were heavier and their performance better than those from the Arab populations. With the end of the war and the election of the Attlee Labour government in Britain, Zionist hopes for a new policy were again frustrated, and Jewish terrorist attacks escalated. Support for a militant Zionism came from abroad, especially from Americans who contributed both money and pressure on their political leadership to liberalize Jewish immigration to Palestine. The needs of European Jews attracted widespread sympathy after the Holocaust—an experience dramatized in the press during the opening of the death camps in 1945. International conferences were held by supporters of each side during 1946, but the year ended without the adoption of acceptable compromises. As I stated much earlier, the concentration camps forged the state of Israel. Calling them terrorists for taking a piece of their original homeland back, is like calling General Custer a freedom fighter.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,Teddy
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:25 PM

When I was in Palistine in 1940 it was the Jews who were the terrorists. Check it out

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm afraid you cannot enlighten her with fact beardedbruce, her mind is already made up..

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

I have to disagree with you. Does NOT mean I am not listening to what you say, and reading your references.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Jordan is not, and never has been the land that the Palestinians were living on prior to the establishment of the state of Israel. Moving the Palestinians from where they were originally from, to someplace where they never lived (Jordan), is not something they are or were ever obligated to agree to.

The Palestinians never agreed to give anything up during the time when all of these promises were being made to the Jews who wanted that land for their own country. So they owe Israel nothing. Everything they have already given up is a concession.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:11 PM

sorry- crossposted. My comment is that, just as you consider the existance of one Jew in the West bank presently as "proof" that the Arabs did not remove all the others, the existance of the much larger Arab Israeli population proves that it was NOT a policy of the state of Israel- Will you now say that the actions of any group of Palestinian Terrorists represent the will of the Palestinian people?

Hardly only one, beardbruce. But having an Arab population in Israel means nothing. Many of those Arabs, the ones who never left what is now Israel, have never been allowed to return to their homes within Israel. And the ones who fled to areas outside Israel have never been allowed to return to Israel. That is proof enough that Israel was deliberately committing ethnic cleansing. The fact that it didn't succeed in removing all of them proves nothing. Israel is, as we speak, in the process of removing large numbers of the Arabs who are still in Israel from their homes. The ethnic cleansing is still going on in within Israel proper. It never stopped... it only slowed down.

And that is why the Palestinians need a place of their own. Because Arabs in Israel (non-Jewish Arabs, and even Jewish Arabs) don't have the same rights as European Jews in Israel. And they never have.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

crossposted again...

"But those other Arab countries don't have that land any more"
Nope- LOOK at the map of Mandate Palestine, and tell me that Jordan does not have a big ( 77%) chunk. And THAT is if you give Israel the ENTIRE West bank. So, go talk to the Jordanians about what is owed to the Palestinians- Though you need to remember that when Jordan had control of the West Bank, they made NO effort to create a "Palestinian State"

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

sorry- crossposted. My comment is that, just as you consider the existance of one Jew in the West bank presently as "proof" that the Arabs did not remove all the others, the existance of the much larger Arab Israeli population proves that it was NOT a policy of the state of Israel- Will you now say that the actions of any group of Palestinian Terrorists represent the will of the Palestinian people?

"But that old falshood about Arabs choosing to flee because of promises by Arab leaders has been disproven for a long, long time."

Disproven? Not so sure I agree...

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:02 PM

Well, the only problem I have with the behavior of other Arab countries in this particular context is the fact that they, along with Israel, took land away from the Palestinians that should rightfully belong to the Palestinians. But those other Arab countries don't have that land any more... Israel does. Do I am now taking it up with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM

If you have a complaint with the results of the actions of the Arab countries, take it up with them. Don't make the Israelis pay for the behavior of others.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:56 PM

I do not agree with this statement, as the existance of Israeli Arabs has proven. The ones who chose to flee, because of promises by Arab leaders that they would get the territories that the UN had given to the Jews are owed nothing.

Of course you are entitled to not agree. But that old falshood about Arabs choosing to flee because of promises by Arab leaders has been disproven for a long, long time.

The Arabs who fled were fleeing for their very lives. They did not want to be massacred as many other Arabs had been by the Jewish terrorists and para-militaries. And it is for exactly these reasons that Israel owes the Palestinians everything.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:48 PM

"In fact it owes them pretty much everything. Everything Israel has, it has because of something the Palestinians have been forced to give up"

I do not agree with this statement, as the existance of Israeli Arabs has proven. The ones who chose to flee, because of promises by Arab leaders that they would get the territories that the UN had given to the Jews are owed nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:45 PM

Israel does owe the Palestinians something. In fact it owes them pretty much everything. Everything Israel has, it has because of something the Palestinians have been forced to give up. The reason the Palestinians owe Israel nothing (not even peace), is because Israel's existance has never been predicated upon any kind of agreement that the Palestinians were a party to.

Until Israel recognizes this and treats the Palestinians with the respect they deserve, Israel will never have peace.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:43 PM

Given the present Arab population of Israel, "nobody had the right to take away the Palestinians' right to remain exactly where they were prior to the creation of the state of Israel. " Does not make much sense. Who took those rights away? Note the statement upon creation of Israel:
"We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. "

Israel is the ONLY country in the region that HAS accepted those Arabs who lived in Mandate Palestine Territory west of the Jordan river as citizens. Or do you think those camps that the Palestinians have been living in represent "citizenship" ?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:38 PM

The other thing that I think needs to be pointed out is the fact that nobody had the right to take away the Palestinians' right to remain exactly where they were prior to the creation of the state of Israel. The fact that various entities undertook to take away this right anyway is a reality that we have to deal with now. However, the fact that this is the reality now does not in any way obligate the Palestinians to agree to it. To whatever extent they do agree to it is a concession on their part.

In order to understand why they have responded the way they have to the way Israel has treated them, it is necessary to recognize this one basic fact.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:38 PM

The actual borders have been determined by negotiation, with Egypt and Jordan so far. WHEN the Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exit, and NOT be attacked, then they can negotiate borders for themselves. Who knows when Syria will?

"you keep approaching this from the standpoint that the Palestinians owe the Iraelis something. They do not. "

I do not say that Israel is owed anything, except peace. YOU keep saying that Israel owes the Palestinians something- They do not. My post above show that the INTENT of the Major powers was to have two states, Israel and Jordan, created from the Mandate Palestine Territories. Jordan has NEGOTIATED a border of the Jordan River- THAT is the present border of Israel to the east. If it is to be changed, that will be done with negotiation, NOT by attacks on innocent ciuvilians now being supported by the present Palestinian leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM

In 1945 a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

Year Total Muslim Jewish Christian Other
1922 752,048 589,177(78%) 83,790(11%) 71,464(10%) 7,617(1%)
1931 1,036,339 761,922(74%) 175,138(17%) 89,134(9%) 10,145(1%)
1945 1,764,520 1,061,270(60%) 553,600(31%) 135,550(8%) 14,100(1%)

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM

But what actual physical borders does the government of Israel recognize, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:28 PM

"On the date of British withdrawal the Jewish provisional government declared the formation of the State of Israel, and the provisional government said that it would grant full civil rights to all within its borders, whether Arab, Jew, Bedouin or Druze. The declaration stated:

We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. "

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

beardedbruce, you keep approaching this from the standpoint that the Palestinians owe the Iraelis something. They do not. What other Arab countries have done is not the responsibility of the Palestinians. If you have a complaint with those countries, take it up with them. Don't make the Palestinians pay for the behavior of others.

You (and the government of Israel) are treating the Palestinians as if they don't have the same rights as the Israelis. This is a mistake, and it is the main cause of the violence that has been plaguing the Middle East ever since the establishment of the state of Israel.

Here is a very good analysis of Hamas and what it's goals and motivations are...

http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefings/hamas.htm

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:26 PM

"As a result the first option was adopted and the UN General Assembly largely accepted UNSCOP's proposals, though they made some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal.

The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state."

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:21 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"During World War I the British had made two promises regarding territory in the Middle East. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence of Arabia, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their supporting the British and Britain had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home as laid out in the Balfour Declaration, 1917.

The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support in the Great Arab Revolt during World War I. In 1920 at the Conference of San Remo, Italy, the League of Nations mandate over Palestine was assigned to Britain. This territory at this time included all of what would later become the State of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, a part of the Golan Heights, and the Kingdom of Jordan. The majority of the approximately 750,000 people in this multi-ethnic region were Arabic-speaking Muslims, including a Bedouin population (estimated at 103,331 at the time of the 1922 census [2] and concentrated in the Beersheba area and the region south and east of it), as well as Jews (who comprised some 11% of the total) and smaller groups of Druze, Syrians, Sudanese, Circassians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Hejazi Arabs.

Many articles of the document specified actions in support of Jewish immigration and political status. However, it was also stated that in the large, mostly arid, territory to the east of the Jordan River, then called Transjordan, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' application of the provisions dealing with the 'Jewish National Home'. At the Cairo Conference of 1921 a government under the Hashimite Emir Abdullah who had just been displaced from ruling the Hejaz was established in 'Transjordan'. In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved on 11 September. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine (which was 23% of the entire territory), and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan (constituting 77% of the mandated territories). Technically they remained one mandate but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. Transjordan remained under British control until 1946.



So, the division of "Palestine" was into Jordan and what is now Israel..... Jews got 23% of the Mandate Territory.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:16 PM

Not too sure of the accuracy, but a starting point...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:45 PM

CarolC,

I do agree that it has not been fair to the Palestinian people, but I would like to point out that the Israelis took in those Jews that were ejected from the Arab nations, as well as accept the Moslems who chose to stay in Israel, while the Arab nations DID NOT accept the Moslems who did flee, nor allow the Jews to remain. It seems to me that the other Arab nations owe far more to the Palestinians than Israel does.

Where were the demands for a Palestinian State when the Arabs had control of the West Bank? If we are going to say that the borders should not be controlled by the results of the wars that have been foughtfrom 1948 on, will you agree to go with the border of a Jewish Homeland as specified in the San Remo conference of 1920, and 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as was done for the nation of Turkey? What makes the 1956-1967 border so sacred?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:37 PM

There was obviously a lot of double dealing going on. Everybody seems to have been promised the same thing at one point or another. It's hardly fair for anyone, but the ones who have been treated the most unfairly are the Palestinians. They are the ones who have given up the most. They are, after all, the ones who were living on that land for many hundreds of years prior to the establishment of the state of Israel (and I do include Jewish Palestinians of Arab descent when I use the term "Palestinian" in this context).

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Actually, the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as well as the San Remo conference of 1920, set up a Jewish Homeland over the entire region now known as Israel, the West Bank AND much of Jordan. Too bad the British did not keep THEIR part of the treaty.

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine"

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:19 PM

Missed this bit...

What stated endgame? The ONLY stated endgame in the "negotiations" is the statement that the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.

Hamas has said that they would consider recognizing Israel if Israel would withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. This kind of phrasing exactly mirrors the phrasing of the government of Israel when it says it will consider the possibility of an independent Palestinian state when the Palestinians stop all of the terrorist attacks. And that is how the government of Israel phrases it. It's exactly the same thing.

NEGOTIATION does not require a stated "endgame"- the final results of a reasonable negotiation ( both sides in ernest) is what is determined BY that negotiation. If the end results are prestated, why negotiate, since there is no doubt as to those results?

Clearly. And it looks like the Palestinians are beginning to learn from the Israelis how to more effectively negotiate. Before now, the Palestinians went into negotiations with their end game clearly stated. This obviously has not worked for them.

I will look into this- Do you mean the UN specified ones of the original creatiion of Israel, the truce lines of 1948, the truce lines of 1956, the truce lines of 1967, the truce lines of 1973, the negotiated borders with Egypt and Jordan, or the unilateral line being drawn up today?

I'm talking about all of the borders Israel shares with its neighbors that the government of Israel itself recognizes.

Hamas has repeadtly stated that there are NO circumstances under which they will recognize Israel's right to exist.

Lately they have said they would consider recognizing Israel if Israel would withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. See my comment to beardedbruce above.

From the creation of State of Israel in 1948 until the Six Day War in 1967, there were no Palestinian territories. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. Are you suggesting that those areas return to Egypt and Jordan? In making peace with Israel, both of those Arab countries washed their hands of them and the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians were promised their own state by the British before Israel was even a country. Israel, Jordan, and Egypt preempted that promise and created their own "facts on the ground". This was not the fault of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should be left alone to create the state they were promised originally, within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:05 PM

Ok, maybe I misread what you said. So let's deal with what you did say...

The question then comes down to is it for self defense or expansion

Clearly it's not for self defense. The government of Israel's policies and practices have not made Israel more secure. Just the opposite. They have made Israel less secure. The very existance of this thread is proof enough of that.

Thanks for the links, beardedbruce. I'll have a look at them.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM

THIS is what the Arabs REJECTED in 1948


This is the truce lines of 1949


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty

"Borders: the agreed upon border was set to be the Jordan river, and if its flow changed, Jordan's border would be reset by the river's new course. In addition, Israel gave Jordan 300 square kilometers and leased 2850 dunams (2.85 km²) in the Arava (Muvlaat Tzofar). The border segment from Ein Gedi to Beit She'an was not marked, because Jordan said that the Palestinian Authority should be a partner for setting this border. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

"The Treaty of Lausanne was a peace treaty (peace treaty: A treaty to cease hostilities) that set the boundaries of modern Turkey (Turkey: A Eurasian republic in Asia Minor and the Balkans; achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1923) . It was signed in Lausanne (Lausanne: A city in western Switzerland; cultural and commercial center) , Switzerland (Switzerland: A landlocked federal republic in central Europe) on July 24, 1923 by Greece (Greece: A republic in southeastern Europe on the southern part of the Balkan peninsula; known for grapes and olives and olive oil) , Turkey (Turkey: A Eurasian republic in Asia Minor and the Balkans; achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1923) and other countries (including the Allied Powers (Allied Powers: when spelt with a capital a, allies usually denotes the countries that fought together...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) ) that fought in the First World War (First World War: A war between the allies (Russia, France, British Empire, Italy, United States, Japan, Rumania, Serbia, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, Montenegro) and the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey, Bulgaria) from 1914 to 1918) and in the Turkish Independence War (Turkish Independence War: the turkish war of independence is a part of the history of turkey that spans from the...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) / War in Asia Minor, 1919-1922 (War in Asia Minor, 1919-1922: more facts about this subject) .

It superseded the Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) which had been rendered as "unacceptable" by the newly founded Turkish government replacing the monarchy in Istanbul. After the expulsion of the Greek forces by the Turkish army under the command of Kemal Atatürk (Kemal Atatürk: more facts about this subject) , there appeared to be a need to renew Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . In October 20th, 1922 the peace conference was opened, and after harsh debates, in February, 4th it was interrupted. Reopening in April, 23rd the treaty was signed in July, 24th after a total of 8 months of long and arduous discussions."


Or will you now state the borders of Turkey, determined by the same treaty, are not valid?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:46 PM

How about this?

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:41 PM

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel. But they have said that they are willing to consider doing so if Israel will pull back to the pre-1967 borders.

Hamas has repeadtly stated that there are NO circumstances under which they will recognize Israel's right to exist.

CarolC,

On more than one occasion, you've stated that the Palestinians will make peace with Israel based on the pre-1967 borders.

From the creation of State of Israel in 1948 until the Six Day War in 1967, there were no Palestinian territories. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. Are you suggesting that those areas return to Egypt and Jordan? In making peace with Israel, both of those Arab countries washed their hands of them and the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

"Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians. "

What stated endgame? The ONLY stated endgame in the "negotiations" is the statement that the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.

Israel has stated that it will NOT give up control over Jerusalum, given the past "access" that the Arabs allowed. They have stated that they would NEGOTIOATE with the Palestinian state (when it recognizes Israel) over borders, access, water rights, etc.

NEGOTIATION does not require a stated "endgame"- the final results of a reasonable negotiation ( both sides in ernest) is what is determined BY that negotiation. If the end results are prestated, why negotiate, since there is no doubt as to those results?


"provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders,"

I will look into this- Do you mean the UN specified ones of the original creatiion of Israel, the truce lines of 1948, the truce lines of 1956, the truce lines of 1967, the truce lines of 1973, the negotiated borders with Egypt and Jordan, or the unilateral line being drawn up today?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

You surely do have a way of twisting words to suit yourself---please show where I said that "...Israel has and expansionist agenda"?

You sound like the lawyer who asks the witness "...when did you stop beating your wife?"---The fact that the witness never did does not enter into the question.   Do you have a law degree---you spin things as an attorney does.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

Is that not pretty much what every nation does?

See, here you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you condemn the Palestinians for wanting to be able to keep just enough of what they once had to be able to have a viable independent state of their own. On the other hand, you are justifying Israel's taking of other people's land.

You really can't have it both ways, even though you appear to think that you can. You hold Israel to a very different standard of behavior than you do the Palestinians. The Palestinians are only asking to be treated the same as anyone else. You are saying this is an unreasonable stance, and that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants.

This is why Israel is the target of terrorist attacks, and will continue to be so until it learns to share and to play fair. And that's not because I agree with the use of terrorism. It's because human beings don't willingly submit to being treated like they have no rights.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

So you don't deny that Israel has an expansionist agenda, Bill H?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:19 PM

"Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is   because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion. Israel's leaders have stated that the borders of Israel are the business of the Jewish people and no one else."--Carol C


Carol: Is that not pretty much what every nation does?   The question then comes down to is it for self defense or expansion---we all know your opinion on that already---ad nauseum.

             As to Hamas I refer you and all to my earlier post---diplomacy has eluded them in hailing the last suicide attack.   It just underscores the opinions I noted in the earlier post re:not holding back the Tax Revenues until there was the backward step of attacks.   That, now, has happened. The only mistake that Israel made was, in my opinion, in holding back the funds waiting for Hamas to make a positive statement---they won't because their aim is what it has always been.

             The Israeli response--so far--has been very diplomatic and low key.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

Ok, I'll get supporting documentation as time allows, beardedbruce.

However, in the meantime, I have a project for you. Please provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders, and also with the Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians.