BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM

Here you go...

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

The above linked site is an attempt to make a case that Hitler was a Christian. Lest I be accused of "Christian bashing", here is the quote in a site that tries to make the case that Hitler was not a Christian...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/102/52.0.html

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM

History is usually written by the victors & Bibles are usually written by those who have a telephone connection to their Gods. To discuss the ancient borders & who crossed what & who stole from whom is useless. It would be more helpful to dicuss the generations that are still alive or in recent memory.

To my way of thinking their is no excuse that can condon blood letting. There is no excuse to oppress a people or to annex the land of another. There is no excuse to be the cause of misery no matter the cause. There is no excuse that the ends can justify any type of means that includes the death of innocents. NEVER!

To treat the symptoms by administering death, terror & oppression does nothing to help anyone's cause. There's a need to go back to the cause & IMHO no one's doing that anywhere. Some may find doing that might not be in their best interests either & that may be where some of the problems lay. Some where some one is not looking at all the truths much less talk about them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM

There is no excuse to oppress a people or to annex the land of another. There is no excuse to be the cause of misery no matter the cause. There is no excuse that the ends can justify any type of means that includes the death of innocents. NEVER!

Thus sayeth Barry Finn, a resident of New Hampshire, a state built on land stolen from the Indians and whose Indian population now totals just 1/5th of 1% of the population.

BTW, New Hampshire is one of the most lilly white of all states with an African American population that totals just 7/10ths of 1% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:45 PM

Yeah, I heard that was Barry's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

I'm not suggesting it's his fault. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of attacking Israel, a small country facing terrorism on a daily basis, while living off the fruits of similar or worse expoloitation to what the person is attacking.

My house too is on land that once belonged to the Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM

Or, we could maybe learn from our mistakes and try to do better now that we know better.

If the government of Israel would learn from the mistakes of others (or even from it's own mistakes), Israelis would not be facing daily threats of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:39 PM

C Ham,

At some point the colonizing and oppression has to stop for there to be peace. Israel seems to want it to stop for everyone else, after they are done. Most others would like to see it ended now. The Palestinians have seen what happened to the Native Americans, the Native Australians and others, that is one reason they fight back so hard and that many of them feel that extraordinary measures are justified. I personally don't think that it is but I see that the Israeli government, the settlers and IDF have done much more damage than all of the suicide bombers have. I can't condemn either side without condemning both.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Jack, This whole thing stems from me stating historical fact, that the land was fought over before Christianity had an effect. The books I suggested give a balanced but detailed overview of the entire history of the area; and the roots of the modern Arab Israeli conflict. Start reading and draw your own conclusions..

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

Dave,

It is my understanding that there is little independent historical verification of the biblical conquest of Israel. You were acting as if you knew of some. If you do know of some I would still like to know. But if you haven't researched the sources for these books, you have no basis for the assertions you have made. Yes. I could read T.E. Lawrence's opinions on the matter, but since I have already read "Seven Pillars" I doubt that I'll find what you have suggested in the books you have mentioned.

I guess you think it is fair to make a dubious assertion then back it up by telling a skeptic to go find the answer himself. To me that just tells me how much weight to give your next assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM

Are you aware, CarolC, that there are, right now, as we speak, Moslems living inside Israeli villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Israelis welcome them there in those villages? And that some Israelis even marry Moslems? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if Palestinians went to those Israeli villages and the Palestinians treated the people there like their friends (and not as their eternal enemies), the Israelis would welcome them as well.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:27 PM

Sigh: Have you also read analysed and translated versions of...

The Ethiopian Kebra Nagast
The Writings of Nicolaus Of Damascus
Artapanas
Philo of Alexandria
Josephus

Various inscriptions and writings of the Egyptians, Moabite, Assyrian and Babylonians?

You have a long way to go to get copies of those, but they may become generally available online soon. Most things seem to be reproduced electronically, but you usually have to subscribe to the electronic formats of major universities to be able to get access to them.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:37 PM

Sigh, Sigh.

Have you read them? If so, what do they say?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

Just for you mate.

The archeological records indicate that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C. Semitic people called Hebrews (Haiparu) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistine seafarers who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae. According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. It is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Jordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus and his successors, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine until about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians. The rest is very well documented from this point in history, and you may find it very interesting to read.

Now does that satisfy you?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM

Nice effort, I'd be curious as to whether your use of the identifier "Palestine" is appropriate to the era, i.e. when (if ever)did Israel 'cease' and "Palestine" take its place, and is "Palestine" an appropriate term for the territory.

(I was impressed when a local (Alaskan) 'Palestinian' was asked his origin and he neatly answered: "The Holy Land")

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

Just for you mate.

The archeological records indicate that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C. Semitic people called Hebrews (Haiparu) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistine seafarers who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae. According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. It is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Jordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus and his successors, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine until about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians. The rest is very well documented from this point in history, and you may find it very interesting to read.

Now does that satisfy you?

Yes, I am satisfied that you do not have an independent history. See the part that I bolded.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM

"According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. "

OK, Jack, I would agree that it was NOT Moses, but some Jew by the same name.

There are ( as stated above ) OTHER sources of the history presented.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:46 PM

Now, putting it all back together (to discern if there is something to be learned here):

Dave said: "Well Paul, the history books I read tell me the land was fought over a long time before Christ came on earth, but I guess you read what your own agenda dictates.

Yours, Aye. Dave."

The CarolC said: "are you using the Old Testament as your history source? Because if you are, you seem to be overlooking the part in the Old Testament that says that the land they were driven from originally was not their own. The Old Testament says that they stole that land from people who were there before them, committing genocide in the process."

That seems to be the original source of the problem. Dave said fighting occurred long before Christ. Long before. And he has graciously supplied a quote which suggests that's right. (As of course one would expect.)

Much back and forth, and he provides a quote which says there was a Genocide starting after Moses and peaking with Joshua -> David. One line says one point came from the Talmud. AND SO WHAT?

Dave never said anything contesting the genocide of Joshua, and in fact he supported it.

Now he is getting blasted for SUPPORTING the assertion of MGOH and the assertion of CarolC even though she wanted to know there was no (non-biblical) support for any Hebrews in 'Palestine" prior to to Joshua's campaign.

But his quote says there was. A cite is not given, but SO WHAT?

If the topic is now to focus on CAROLC's (implied) claim that there were no Hebrews in "Palestine" prior to Joshua's campaign, and with the understanding that she will not accept a contradiction from biblical sources (even though her own claim came from biblical sources), THEN LET'S HAVE IT. Dave has more than done his part.

You are welcome for straightening this out.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:58 PM

Or, for a parallel discussion: Can anyone explain the deep hatred of Jewish falafels? Has anyone been monitoring the falafels futures market?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:04 PM

Folksingers like Pete Seeger, Josh White,Odetta, Peter, Paul and Mary and many more have glorified Joshua's actions when he "fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down."

CarolC, would you say that these beacons of folk music are glorifying what you call genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:24 PM

If the topic is now to focus on CAROLC's (implied) claim that there were no Hebrews in "Palestine" prior to Joshua's campaign, and with the understanding that she will not accept a contradiction from biblical sources

I have not made such a claim, and I do not make such a claim.


Are you aware, CarolC, that there are, right now, as we speak, Moslems living inside Israeli villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Israelis welcome them there in those villages? And that some Israelis even marry Moslems? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if Palestinians went to those Israeli villages and the Palestinians treated the people there like their friends (and not as their eternal enemies), the Israelis would welcome them as well.

Yes, beardedbruce. I am perfectly aware of this. What is your point?


Folksingers like Pete Seeger, Josh White,Odetta, Peter, Paul and Mary and many more have glorified Joshua's actions when he "fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down."

CarolC, would you say that these beacons of folk music are glorifying what you call genocide?

Perhaps not intentionally, but yes, that's what they are (were) doing.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:33 PM

>>I have not made such a claim, and I do not make such a claim.<<

well crap. I am lost and I thought I wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM

What happened two or three thousand years ago is, in its way, interesting. But to try to use it as a basis for determining territorial rights today is a step too far. That would even apply if the facts were unambiguous and beyond dispute.

The relevance of the passages in the Bible recording and even requiring genocide is not that they necessarily occurred exactly as written - though sadly enough more recent history in many parts of the world indicate that there is nothing intrinsically improbable described in those passages.

However when a claim to territory is based on Biblical texts, the accompanying Biblical passages describing a genocide deserve to be remembered as well. The promise and the things recorded as being done to make that promise reality stand and fall together.

Israel exists primarily not because of a Biblical promise, but as a consequence of the terrible injustice of anti-semitism in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. The establishment of Israel involved injustice towards the people who were there at the time, an injustice which has continued. This situation has in turn led to horrible atrocities, such as this week's in Tel Aviv.

It's impossible to change history, with all its injustices.   If you take the wrong road in an ordinary journey, you can go back to where you went wrong and set out down the other road - but you can't do that in a journey through time. People have to start from where they are, and somehow get to a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:48 PM

McGrath, in his 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM post, has the basic gist of what I was trying to say, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM

Carol,

"Yes, beardedbruce. I am perfectly aware of this. What is your point?"

What was yours? In discussing the efforts of the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 to remove the Jews from the Arab occupied territories, YOU keep bringing up the Jeww, married to a Palestinian, who NOW lives in that area. That has NO bearing on the Pre-1967 situation.


" And also that they will continue to be fenced in and imprisoned in tiny bantustans with no access to the rest of the world, or to commerce or any other benefits of civilization. Did the Palestinians do this to the Jews of the West Bank prior to 1967, beardedbruce?"

The answer is NO, they DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO LIVE THERE AT ALL. The Jews on the Arab occupied territories fled for their lives, having been told by the Arabs that they would all be killed. Are you calling the Arabs liars, now?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 07:33 PM

I grew up, pre 1967, across the street from a Palestinian family that was forced out of their home in 1948.

They were Lebonese Orthodox, from the mainly Christian town of Ramallah.......You know, the present seat of the Palestinian government, which appears to be almost entirely Moslem.....

Of cousre, you never mention the Arab Israelis, who stayed in Israel, and are citizens. I am STILL waiting for the explaination of why Israel should have to absorb the Jews driven out of Arab countries, making them citizens of Israel along with the Arabs who did not leave, while the Arabs kept the Palestinian Moslems who left Israel in camps, without citizenship, and drove out their own Jewish populations.


640,000 Arabs left what became Israel
820,000 Jews left the Arab countries

So, the Palestinians have some special right to occupy land that the Jews do not? Or will you also demand that the Arabs provide land to those THEY drove out?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

Justice would require that all refugees should be able to return to the places they were driven out from, and live in peace there.

One of the goals of a peaceful solution in the Middle East should be to seek to approach that ideal, and one of the tests of its success should be the extent to which it succeeded in that.

The loss of their Jewish communities is indeed a tragedy for many countries, both in Europe and the Middle East. It must be hoped that in time this will be recognised in those countries, and that these communities can be restored in some way.

But games of tit-for-tat, using one lot of ethnic cleansing to justify another, point directly away from such a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

What was yours? In discussing the efforts of the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 to remove the Jews from the Arab occupied territories, YOU keep bringing up the Jeww, married to a Palestinian, who NOW lives in that area. That has NO bearing on the Pre-1967 situation.

The reason I keep bringing them up is because people keep trying to make it look like all Palestinians want to kill all Jews. I don't know whether or not that is your intention, but that is the message I get from a lot of your posts. But it simply is not true that all Palestinians want to kill all Jews.

Of cousre, you never mention the Arab Israelis, who stayed in Israel, and are citizens. I am STILL waiting for the explaination of why Israel should have to absorb the Jews driven out of Arab countries, making them citizens of Israel along with the Arabs who did not leave, while the Arabs kept the Palestinian Moslems who left Israel in camps, without citizenship, and drove out their own Jewish populations.

I don't mention the Arab Israelis because they don't live in the Palestinian occupied areas. Those are the areas that I have been mostly addressing in my posts on the subject of the occupation. Those areas are the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and to some extent, Gaza (which Israel is still trying to control in terms of borders). Why should I mention the Arab Israelis when the subject is Palestinians who live in the Palestinian occupied areas?

640,000 Arabs left what became Israel
820,000 Jews left the Arab countries

So, the Palestinians have some special right to occupy land that the Jews do not? Or will you also demand that the Arabs provide land to those THEY drove out?

And this point of yours is the other reason I mention the bit about Jews living in Palestinian occupied areas. Because you keep trying to make it look like the Palestinians who live in these areas don't want any Jews to live there with them, and that simply is not true.

Even the PLO Charter, which does not recognize the state of Israel, includes Jews in the definition of "Palestinian". According to the PLO Charter, Palestinians are anyone, Christian, Jew, or Muslim, who is of Arab descent and who is descended paternally from people who were living in mandate Palestine prior to 1917 or thereabouts.

And you know I advocate for allowing Jews to return to their homes in other Arab countries (those who were from there originally, or their descendents). I've already told you that more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:06 AM

C. Ham; "Thus sayeth Barry Finn, a resident of New Hampshire, a state built on land stolen from the Indians and whose Indian population now totals just 1/5th of 1% of the population.

BTW, New Hampshire is one of the most lilly white of all states with an African American population that totals just 7/10ths of 1% of the population."

Big Pink Lad; "Yeah, I heard that was Barry's fault."

Thanks Big Pink Lad for saying something in my favor, I was afraid C.Ham's rebuttal may cause others to think that I was pond scum because of my living in this one small area in this one small state throws a shadow of doubt on all that I may say. You can bet I'm glad I don't own a 2nd home some where else in the USA.

C. Ham; "I'm not suggesting it's his fault. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of attacking Israel, a small country facing terrorism on a daily basis, while living off the fruits of similar or worse expoloitation to what the person is attacking.

My house too is on land that once belonged to the Indians."




C. Ham, I didn't relize that the Isreal/Palestinian conflict was in part related to me. I also didn't know & still don't know what fruits I'm living off of & who they belong to. I also didn't relize that the ethnic population & the percentages of the Peoples of the First Nation & the Afro Americans had to do with any of this or why this involves me in the exploitation of these peoples & why do these things have any thing to do with me or the Irsael/Palestinian conflict?

Thanks C. Ham for some how making me aware that I have some blame in all this because of where I live.

Now, what was your point?

C. Ham, you still have not stated your reasons for the justifaction of the means, the killing of innocents, that would make any of these deaths OK.
The state of Irsael is at war with the people of Palestine not the state of Palestine. The people of Palestine are not at war with state Israel only a group of terrorists are. The Israel Air Fource has it's own pilots refusing orders to fly missions that they consider to be acts "crimes against humanity". You might retort that the Palestinian government should step in. Why would they? Because Israel might treat them a little better than they've treated them in the past? Again, both have to stop the blood letting first, go back to pre 67' borders, end the oppression then talk, without US backing or involvement, we've been a pain in the asses of all involved & forget about a road map the President can even do the right thing never mind making a RIGHT turn. The parties or party that refuse to come to the table after all is done should suffer international sanctions then & only then & not sanction a party of popular choice now. Other wise it's a until death do us part for both peoples or the end of a nation of one people, & the world or at least the Middle East will demand justice.

Barry, who's still waiting for answers

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:27 AM

Historians generally agree that the ancient Semitic peoples -— Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews) and, later, the Arabs themselves migrated into the area of the Fertile Crescent, after successive crises of overpopulation in the Peninsula beginning in the third millennium before the Common Era (BCE), and ending with the Muslim conquests of the 7th century CE

The key word is "migrated" even the name Palestine is derived from the Philistine seafarers who for all intents and purpose were Greeks. Tribal lands with ill defined borders are the root cause of the problems today. Those who do not read and understand history are condemned to re live it. I provided non biblical references and biblical, to my previous statements as challenged, and have nothing more to add.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM

Dave, can you name a single part of the world that hasn't experienced numerous and repeated conflicts over control and borders since the beginning of human awareness? (Aside from uninhabitable places, of course.)

The past is not what determines the present, nor the future. If it were, you would, like your ancestors, be painting yourself blue and warring against invading tribes from Scandinavia.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

Hm mm interesting concept CaroleC. The lessons of history you seem to dismiss as not affecting the present are:

1:When you can no longer survive by living on it you move or die.

2:If you cannot defend it, some other group who can will come and take it from you.

3:If you attack and recover control over it, you had better get ready for the next armed group who will try and take it from you.

4:If you don't form alliances with friends other groups will, and eventually become strong enough to have another go at you.

5:Appeasement will not protect you or stop your enemies from assaulting you.

6:Those who ignore these facts are written up in the history books as extinct.

I can just picture the dilemma of my ancestors; who if they knew it at the time would see one third painted blue and warring with another third; while the rest would be waiting in the sidelines to fight over and take control of what was left alive after the battle. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:17 PM

I think I should clarify my last point, because I don't think it got understood the way I meant it.

The past certainly does effect where you have got to in the present. But it does not need to determine how you conduct yourself right now.

Another way of saying it is, past conflicts do not need to be brought into the present, nor into the future. And indeed, quite often, as we have seen in some of our own histories, they have not.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:19 PM

C. Ham, you still have not stated your reasons for the justifaction of the means, the killing of innocents, that would make any of these deaths OK.
The state of Irsael is at war with the people of Palestine not the state of Palestine. The people of Palestine are not at war with state Israel only a group of terrorists are.

Barry Finn,

I have never "justified" the killing of any innocent people. You are a liar to suggest otherwise.

Your analysis is also wrought with lies. Israel is a significant military power. If it were "at war with the people of Palestine" the Palestinians would have been rolled over and defeated years ago. Israel takes great care to minimize loss of Palestinian civilian life, despite the fact that the Palestinian terrorists hide behind the civilians.

The government of Israel is committed to the creation of a Palestinian state. The newly-elected Palestinian government, on the other hand, does not recognize Israel and is committed to Israel's total destruction of Israel. The former Palestinian government did recognize Israel, but the Palestinian people threw them out.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:26 PM

I bet if the government of Israel would sit down with the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people (and if the Israeli government would be willing to negotiate in good faith and begin the negotiations with a clearly stated end game as their initial bargaining position), Hamas might be willing to reconsider. Hamas has said they would like to have the opportunity. The government of Israel has refused.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

"Hamas has said they would like to have the opportunity"

Can you please point where this was? I have NEVER seen ANY statement from Hamas acknowledging the State of Israel, much less being willing to talk with them.

They HAVE stated that their intention to reclaim ALL of Palestine ( as defined by them, the entire state of Israel) from the Zionists.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:41 PM

I'll see if I can find a link, beardedbruce. It's been a few weeks since I saw the article.

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel. But they have said that they are willing to consider doing so if Israel will pull back to the pre-1967 borders.

I believe I understand why they are adopting this stance. The Palestinians have already given up more than seventy percent of what they had to begin with. They feel that they have already made far more concessions than Israel has. And yet, Israel wants them to make all future concessions, with Israel having to make almost no concessions. Israel has never sat down at the negotiating table with a stated end game as their bargaining position. Never.

Hamas wants Israel to bargain in good faith and to be willing to also make concessions. Hamas knows that if they don't start from the beginning... to start from the understanding that they have already made the biggest concession - that of giving up more than seventy percent of what they had to begin with, Israel will continue to demand that the Palestinians give up more of what little they still have, while Israel conceeds nothing.

I vehemently disagree with their stance of justifying the killing of innocents, but I very much understand their bargaining position. And I can't really say I disagree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:43 PM

I think Israel has demonstrated good faith on more than one occasion. Good faith has been thrown back in it's face too many times. If anyone should be advocating a peace initiative it should be Hamas; who's avowed policy is to destroy Israel, and murder Israeli's indiscriminately. Unacceptable policy for any reasonable person to support regardless of the fact Hamas was democratically elected in Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:53 PM

That's not true, Dave. Israel has never negotiated with a declared end game. And it's also not true that anything has been thrown back in their face. If you knew what Israel was offering the Palestinians (and it's pretty obvious that you do not), and if you knew what the Palestinians have already given up, and what they have stated (and shown) that they are willing to give up, you would not be saying that.

Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion. Israel's leaders have stated that the borders of Israel are the business of the Jewish people and no one else.

That is not a concession. That is a declaration of an intention to expand and dominate.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:04 PM

"pre-1967 borders"

You mean back when the Arabs controlled East Jerusalum, and refused access to ANY Jew to the most holy site of the Jewish religion?

Ain't gonna happen.




"seventy percent of what they had to begin with"

Can you tell me what 70% they have given up? Or do you mena the entire state of Israel is "supposed" to be theirs?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM

"Although Israel does not have a single complete constitutional document, in its forty-five years of statehood the Jewish state has developed an operative constitution of its own, embodied in a set of written texts that reflect the political system on which the state is based, its social content, and an expanding constitutional tradition. Those texts were properly promulgated by the representatives of the people and recognized as constitutional by Israel's Supreme Court. The texts are collected and presented here for what they are -- Israel's operative constitution that determines the basic operations of the Israeli polity, the basic rules of governance enforced by those empowered to execute and enforce the law and, as such, interpreted by the courts as a constitution.




Political Compact and Covenant

The constitutional character of a civil society is not based on the existence of a written constitution alone. Both as a new society in the modern sense and as the heir to Jewish political principles, Israel was founded on the basis of a political compact that is both a social contract through which its citizens have established the terms of civil peace upon which their polity rests and a covenant that morally connects Israelis to a set of shared political principles and aspirations.

Israel's declaration of independence is precisely that kind of political compact. The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, as it is officially known, represents the consensual basis upon which the state rests. In essence, it is Israel's founding covenant. As indicated by the range of signatures appended to it, it was proclaimed as the expression of a wall-to-wall consensus which extended beyond the Zionist movement to include the Communists and the ultra-Orthodox non-Zionists of Agudat Israel. Precisely drafted to assure the support of all parties to Israel's founding, it combines Jewish national aspirations and universal human rights, religious and secular sensibilities, Zionist needs and the political ends of modern democracy. As such, it was and is a consensus-building document.1"


CarolC, you have stated "Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion." Can you give any support to this opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:10 PM

If I were to state that the Palestinian government did not recognize the state of Israel beacause they did not want to have to deal in good faith with it, I am sure CarolC would ask where I had gotten that information, and what support I had for it.


NOTE I do not make that claim- though I could...

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

Ok, I'll get supporting documentation as time allows, beardedbruce.

However, in the meantime, I have a project for you. Please provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders, and also with the Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:19 PM

"Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is   because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion. Israel's leaders have stated that the borders of Israel are the business of the Jewish people and no one else."--Carol C


Carol: Is that not pretty much what every nation does?   The question then comes down to is it for self defense or expansion---we all know your opinion on that already---ad nauseum.

             As to Hamas I refer you and all to my earlier post---diplomacy has eluded them in hailing the last suicide attack.   It just underscores the opinions I noted in the earlier post re:not holding back the Tax Revenues until there was the backward step of attacks.   That, now, has happened. The only mistake that Israel made was, in my opinion, in holding back the funds waiting for Hamas to make a positive statement---they won't because their aim is what it has always been.

             The Israeli response--so far--has been very diplomatic and low key.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

So you don't deny that Israel has an expansionist agenda, Bill H?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

Is that not pretty much what every nation does?

See, here you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you condemn the Palestinians for wanting to be able to keep just enough of what they once had to be able to have a viable independent state of their own. On the other hand, you are justifying Israel's taking of other people's land.

You really can't have it both ways, even though you appear to think that you can. You hold Israel to a very different standard of behavior than you do the Palestinians. The Palestinians are only asking to be treated the same as anyone else. You are saying this is an unreasonable stance, and that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants.

This is why Israel is the target of terrorist attacks, and will continue to be so until it learns to share and to play fair. And that's not because I agree with the use of terrorism. It's because human beings don't willingly submit to being treated like they have no rights.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

You surely do have a way of twisting words to suit yourself---please show where I said that "...Israel has and expansionist agenda"?

You sound like the lawyer who asks the witness "...when did you stop beating your wife?"---The fact that the witness never did does not enter into the question.   Do you have a law degree---you spin things as an attorney does.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

"Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians. "

What stated endgame? The ONLY stated endgame in the "negotiations" is the statement that the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.

Israel has stated that it will NOT give up control over Jerusalum, given the past "access" that the Arabs allowed. They have stated that they would NEGOTIOATE with the Palestinian state (when it recognizes Israel) over borders, access, water rights, etc.

NEGOTIATION does not require a stated "endgame"- the final results of a reasonable negotiation ( both sides in ernest) is what is determined BY that negotiation. If the end results are prestated, why negotiate, since there is no doubt as to those results?


"provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders,"

I will look into this- Do you mean the UN specified ones of the original creatiion of Israel, the truce lines of 1948, the truce lines of 1956, the truce lines of 1967, the truce lines of 1973, the negotiated borders with Egypt and Jordan, or the unilateral line being drawn up today?

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:41 PM

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel. But they have said that they are willing to consider doing so if Israel will pull back to the pre-1967 borders.

Hamas has repeadtly stated that there are NO circumstances under which they will recognize Israel's right to exist.

CarolC,

On more than one occasion, you've stated that the Palestinians will make peace with Israel based on the pre-1967 borders.

From the creation of State of Israel in 1948 until the Six Day War in 1967, there were no Palestinian territories. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. Are you suggesting that those areas return to Egypt and Jordan? In making peace with Israel, both of those Arab countries washed their hands of them and the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:46 PM

How about this?

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference