BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake

Subject: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:17 PM

Some may find that link below amusing. It reminds me of the story of the first German stamp. It is so expensive that it has attracted fakers. One of them (I forgot the name) became famous for being so good that he nearly lost his life for being too good. He crossed a European border during the last war with some of his faked stamps in a briefcase. The Nazis captured him with the faked stamps. Smuggling money (or valuables) had the death penalty on it. Faking stamps had a minor penalty (compared to death). So he quickly told them the stamps were fakes. But an expert on this stamp declared his fakes to be genuine. Now he was in real trouble and he offered the Nazis to fake the stamps under their eyes. Only when he did this his life was spared. His fakes are now so famous that they sell for about half of the price of the real stamp, but only if an expert has the stamp declared to be a genuine fake by that famous faker and not by a lesser quality faker.

Wolfgang

Relative Fakes Hitler Diary Forger's Name on Paintings

Buying a fake of the Mona Lisa is fair enough, it's a great painting, hangs in the Louvre and isn't for sale. But buying a fake of a fake? Unwitting buyers have been shelling out thousands for faked forgeries of Mona and other classics, apparently thanks to fraud by the great-niece of the man who forged the Hitler diaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:33 PM

Hey Wolfgang,

Did you ever get to see the TV series "Private Schultz"? It was about faking British 5 pound notes during WWII. It's absolutely hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM

I sure remember the ever bumbling Sergeant Schultz(ie) knowing "nothing, nothing!" on Hogan's Heroes. But, I don't ever remember seeing any tv show about Private Schultz.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:44 PM

Would there be any mileage in faking the genuine fakes I ask myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 01:38 PM

Frauds have been something of a "preoccupation" with artists and collectors, probably for about as long as there has been art and collecting. Antique collectors of all kinds run into fraudulent articles quite frequently; and it's "sort of" interesting that often known frauds are of considerable value (or at least noteworthy price).

From an essay on Why David Hockney should not be taken seriously by Brian Yoder (a rather long piece, and the quote is well down):

The Han van Meegeren Case

In the mid-20th century a Dutch artist was caught selling very high quality forgeries of (supposedly unknown) Vermeer paintings. He had great success at getting these paintings authenticated for years even though he painted them himself. In his court case where he stood accused of collaborating with the Nazis by selling them "cultural treasures," in his defense he proved that he had forged the paintings he sold to high Nazi officials by demonstrating his ability to make fake "Vermeers" before the court

An after-the-fact narration on the trial may be seen at http://www.alamut.com/proj/87/dayOfTrial.html.

The painting that van Meegeren sold to Hermann Goering as a Vermeer was titled " Christ and the Adultress," painted in 1941, an inset in the article at the above link.

(One may respect the talent of a forger like van Meegeren, but Hockney (from the Yoder article) commits a repugnant fraud simply by representing himself as being an artist. IMO.)

As to forgery by relatives:

Another purported fraud apparently not widely known is the charge made that Picasso, in his early years, forged his own name to paintings and sketches made by his father, in order to create a portfolio that would gain him admission to the art academies. (He didn't last long at the academies.) There has been some debate over whether Picasso actually could draw, and these early works have been frequently cited as proof that he could, but just didn't choose to. If the forgery charge is given credibility, along with a few other bits of evidence, he probably really wasn't particularly "competent," although a very few later works would suggest that he wasn't completely incompetent – at an advanced high school level perhaps.. See La infancia fraudulenta de Picasso for the case. The site is, unfortunately not in English, and a Google translation wasn't particularly helpful, so I had to resort to dictionaries; but I think I got the essence of the claims.

Picasso in his younger days used his given name Pablo Ruiz, and the drawings/paintings submitted were all signed "P Ruiz." His father, Jose Ruiz signed his "J Ruiz." All the "P Ruiz" signatures cited show a conspicuous "hook" at the bottom of the "P" that likely was the result of Pablo adding the top loop to a pre-existing "J." Judge for yourself, if interested.

Even if the charge against Picasso is true, the "forged Pablos" most likely would sell at prices far beyond what the originals would have drawn attributed to Jose.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 01:43 PM

Why are people dumb enough to hear only the word "genuine" in those commercials for the "GEN-yeeeew-IIINE faux Diamonds!"

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 01:52 PM

PERSOANALLY, I WOULD NEVER FAKE ANYTHING

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 01:54 PM

Not PERSONALLY , either!

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM

You'd think a fake fake would be even more genuinely fake...

No doubt if this case builds the right way, and it will get made into a film, The Forger's Daughter, with Katherine Zeta-Jones for example; and then there'll be people producing genuine fake fakes credited (falsely) to Petra Kujau... And that's the makings for "The Forger's Daughter II".

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 03:56 PM

Stamp collectors run into many fakes of old issues. Experts estimate that some 90 per cent of Japanese stamps in collectors hands purporting to have been issued before 1880 are forgeries, some are excellent. Collectors buy them knowingly to fill spaces in their albums or to compare with the real stamps and others collect and study the various fakes for their own interest. A cd-rom available from a society of Japanese stamp collectors that details and illustrates these Japanese forgeries prints out to some 3200 pages.
Some of the genuine stamps are worth many thousands.

I understand that it is against U. S. law to deal in or knowingly possess these forgeries, but not certain of the truth of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 04:36 PM

And then there are fake orgasms...

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Skivee
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 06:14 PM

Neil Armstrong figures that about 70% of his signatures that collectors buy are fake....Most obviously anything where he appears to quote the "One Small Step" line. He says he never, ever does that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 06:32 PM

A friend of mine is a tour guide in New York City and can't get over the regular request by out of town visitors to go down to the streets in Chinatown (Canal Street, for one) where they can buy the knockoff Dooney and Burke bags and the Rolex watches, among other things.

There was a charming film with Edmund Gwenn and Burt Lancaster called Mr. 880 about a man who forged 1 dollar bills with Washington misspelled (or some other such conspicuous flaw).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 06:41 PM

Did he spell it "Warshington", by any chance? Some people pronounce it that way.

I often get bogus Ebay emails trying to sucker me into revealing personal information which have obvious spelling errors in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

My favorite term in some pressure ads is 'a genuine replica of [fill in the blank]'; I've often wondered if I ordered one of these replicas, but they sent a real [fill in the blank] could I sue them for false advertising?

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:12 PM

In a trip to Seoul, my daughter bought copies of Gucci and Vuitton bags. Excellent workmanship, just as good as the originals. Companies such as Vuitton, which prints their name or initials all over their product and sells it for big money, deserve to be ripped off.
Once, of course, I would never wear a pair of blue jeans that didn't have the Levi Strauss patch above the back pocket. Now they are made off shore so I buy cheapies from Work Warehouse.

John otSC reminded me of a furniture store here in Calgary (thankfully out of business) that had a sign on the door, "Genuine Furniture." Another I have seen is "genuine simulated pearls."

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 03:43 AM

I saw a sign advertising "Genuine Fake Watches" - it was in Lindos, on the Island of Rhodes.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pitfalls in buying a genuine fake
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 04:24 AM

Nazis have no room to complain. They faked British 'fivers' during the war, which is why they were changed. (The fivers, that is.)

A couple of Victorian helmet-divers made a steady living 'finding' antiquities in the Thames. I believe that authenticated examples of their product fetch as much as the gunuine Roman stuff.