BS: What might Mudcat be like if -

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:32 PM

How would I go about finding Azizi's website?

Try asking her.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Azizi
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:30 PM

If interested, click http://www.cocojams.com/names.htm to read a short comment which I wrote about how I got the name "Azizi".

That comment is located towards the end of that page which contains information about and commentary on names and nicknames.

I wrote that comment for the Mudcat thread "RE: BS: How did you choose your mudcat name?" and I reposted it on my website.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:27 PM

How would I go about finding Azizi's website?

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:09 PM

Any relation to the Iranian Kurd poet Bayan Azizi?

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:58 PM

I did not know Azizi had a website.

I did know there is no stronger True Believer in the Sanctity of Mudcat than katlaughing.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: open mike
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:41 PM

What might Mudcat be like if ... everyone here genuinely cared about
each other and was considerate, thoughtful and generous? That
would make this a place that everyone would want to come to.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Azizi
Date: 13 May 06 - 09:24 PM

Stringsinger, I very much agree with your 13 May 06 - 04:20 PM post.

CarolC, I very much agree with your 13 May 06 - 06:39 PM post.

Also, I appreciate the comments that McGrath of Harlow has made on this thread.

As to those who have issues with me, or with my opinions of Mudcat, or with my reasons for posting here, I will not let your issues or opinions interfere with my right to start threads or posts to threads on subjects that are of interest to me and that may be of interest to other folks here now or in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:39 PM

While I don't believe in categorizing people according to "colour", or attempting to assign any particular attributes to people based on their colour, I do like having opportunities to get to know people of many "colours". I find that the perspectives people have of the world can be at least partially shaped by their experiences. What one experiences can also be, at least partially, shaped by some physical attributes along with all of the other considerations.

I like knowing about the different kinds of experiences people have of the world, and their perceptions and perspectives based on those experiences. All of these things help to create the kind of variety in people that makes them interesting. I like learning about people's experiences, and I like knowing how these things contribute to the musical millieu of which they are a part, or with which they identify.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:16 PM

The whole premise of this thread is based on a broad and sweeping generalisation about the membership of the Mudcat by someone who has only been here for just over a year, according to her postings. One has only to visit her website and read her "take" on the Mudcat to see she has carried those generalisations over to there, also. BTW, this is nothing I have not already said to Azizi by PM.

Yes, to what Frank has said, BUT Frank...it's not just rural people who have been brought up on OT or Bluegrass!:-) I know you've been around long enough to have seen some of the fantastic threads we've had on them and on the blues and gospels. I think part of the problem is newer members are judging the Mudcat and its archives by what they see in the day's current fair. With a bit of research, easily done with the SuperSearch, one can find many, many threads on all types of diverse backgrounds and music, including many African.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 06:10 PM

I didn't say there wasn't "an agenda" on this thread. I think there's always an agenda in everything we do. Sometimes it's open, sometimes it's implicit, sometimes it's hidden.

I disagreed with akenaton's assertion that this thread's agenda could properly be described as trolling, and explained why. Then I indicated what I thought the implicit agenda was, and said I personally saw it as worthwhile.

"Colour" is one marker of some ethnic communities. It's been given an exaggerated and distorted significance, more especially in some parts of the world. Different types of musical tradition are another marker, and that's something which is clearly very relevant to the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: akenaton
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:41 PM

But what has "colour" got to do with it?

Every nationality or ethnic area has its own musical style, Scottish Irish, Cuban, South American, Cajun......dozens of them, all defined by their sound not by the colour of the performers.

And I dont agree with you about a lack of agenda on this thread...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 05:26 PM

Trolling is when people post stuff they probabaly don't really give a toss about in the expectation and with the object of stirring up dissent. That's its "agenda".   

And it pretty clearly isn't the agenda in the case of this thread.

Whether on the Mudcat or in the real-world folk get togethers, it's much more fun when they operate in such a way that a range of different folk traditions, and a range of the various communities that have developed theser traditions, intermingle and interact. Trying to identify the factors that often stop that happening is a thoroughly worthwhile agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: akenaton
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:43 PM

Hear hear to that.
Comments like..."What would it be like if more black people posted here" and "If there were more Mudcat members and guests who were people of color and other [what appears to me to be] currently poorly represented racial and ethnic groups on Mudcat" appear to signal an agenda by the poster.
The pursuit of this agenda is often referred to as "trolling"

When listening to music or responding to other posters on this site ,I've never cared if they were black, white, yellow or green.

I'm sure the only things that interest 99.9% of the membership here is the music or the ideas put up for discussion. I'm all for diversity in music and life. I dont think we need the assistance of the "thought police" in setting the perameters of those discussions....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 06 - 04:20 PM

Azizi

We don't really know that there aren't some who lurk.

A discussion of racism would be productive here. I think, however, that if it's forced just because we want different ethnic groups to particpate just because they are different ethnic groups than that's a kind of stereotyping that's not needed. OTOH, there is so much to be learned from people from different ethnic cultures that it would be wonderful to hear more from them.

I would love to hear about ethnic music from practioners. For example, if a young black blues musician were to particpate and share his or her feelings on he music, that would be terrific.

If someone from the rural part of the US could share with us feelings about why they liked OT or Bluegrass music, that would be great too.

Or someone who has a distinctive ethnic background in some national music that could enlighten us, it would be great.

Wouldn't it be fantastic to hear from an African drummer about the role of rhythm in a community?

i think that the folk community is ever expanding and getting more diverse which is in my mind a good thing. I see folk music as a cultural index into the lives of people and their humanity that is really important...a kind of musical anthropology. I am always grateful for some new information about folk music whether it can be agreed upon as to what it is or not.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 06 - 03:17 PM

"I'm quite sure a few nasty words do not scare anyone from mudcat."

"Scare" probably isn't the right word most of the timne - but there have, as Carol said, been plenty of times when people have pushed off because they edon't like the company. Most people onthe Mudcat arer fine, but there are some exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:54 PM

That was just a helpful suggestion, clairerise.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinions (as am I). But if you are going to call people's posts "patronizing" based on a lack of information and a lack of experience with this site, don't be surprised if someone returns the favor.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: clairerise
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:46 PM

And you might want to wait until you've been here a while longer before you start commenting on how things work around here.

Sorry are new members not allowed opinions?

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:43 PM

Plus i have never actually seen racist language on here anyway, though if i am wrong correct me, but even then that wouldn't scare anyone off.

You are quite wrong about this, and I can provide examples.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:41 PM

Not just Black people, clairerise. Many kinds of people. Azizi din't just mention Black people in her initial post.

And I've seen White people get scared off by what they considered to be racist posts about non-White people as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: clairerise
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:29 PM

I've definitely wondered about it. And I've also sometimes wondered if sometimes they're lurking here but they get scared off by some of the things they see here.

You say black people who are 'lurking' might get scared off because of the things said on here? Black people are not kittens carolc, that's all im saying.

They don't lurk in the shadows of all white mudcat in fear at some comments made then run and not join.

Plus i have never actually seen racist language on here anyway, though if i am wrong correct me, but even then that wouldn't scare anyone off.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 01:00 PM

LOL, heric.

( ...you underestimate me)

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:55 PM

I don't see anyone in this thread implying that people think a different way because of the color of their skin. Maybe that's just what you wish they were saying.

But perhaps you can provide an example of someone making such an implication.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: heric
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:43 PM

"undercurrent" . . . "implied" . . . "thinking" (not saying) . . .

If you're going to argue with a guy who can blow magic smoke screens like that, you're not going to win.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:27 PM

"Frankly, Mr. Hardly"

Wasn't he the Hardly Boys dad?

The undercurrent of thinking here that people think a different way because of the color of their skin is patronizing. If you don't think that's implied in any of the above posting then...

Have a nice day!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: gnu
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:27 PM

I have an interest in many cultures. I really must keep up with the housework.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:21 PM

Frankly, Mr. Hardly, I can't see how indicating an interest in other cultures (and a desire to have access to more of them) could possibly be considered patronizing. I think you need to take a look in the mirror yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: gnu
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:20 PM

I got as far as "bigoted idiots" and stopped. Have a nice day, whoever you are. I refuse to read garbage from garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:17 PM

Silly woman. They are not children, they are people. Not scared rabbits. I'm quite sure a few nasty words do not scare anyone from mudcat. Your comment is more patronising than the comments i think you claim scared them off.

Silly woman yourself. In the six years I've been here, I've seen quite a few people get scared off by stuff around here. And those are the ones who took a step beyond lurking and became members. I know they were scared off because they said so before they left. Considering the many people we know about, one can only imagine the number of people who got scared off before they even made themselves known.

But if you want to see patronizing, try looking in the mirror.

And you might want to wait until you've been here a while longer before you start commenting on how things work around here.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 06 - 12:11 PM

What might Mudcat be like if--

       --it weren't inhabited by bigoted idiots like claireise, et al?

What might Mudcat be like if--

       --the asylum weren't being run by the inmates?

Answer: it would cease to exist.

IMNSHO, the presence of people of color is barely tolerated here, and many people chiming in to this thread show just how thin the veneer of tolerance and widespread the veiled hostility is towards them.

This place is Anglo and Anglo American dominated, clannish and xenophobic in the extreme. And the belligerent majority intends to keep it that way. They would much rather worship at the altar of bogus "bardic roots" or "Renaissance Europe" or perpetual re-fighting of European and US civil wars, than engage in the present day world of folklore scholarship. People here don't want deconstruction, they want resurrection of European & European American domination.

Their loss. But then again, this is just one tiny, insignificant, backward looking backwater of the web world.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: gnu
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:17 AM

Good point, LH. I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: clairerise
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:54 AM

deductionist logic john. it's awful

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:50 AM

"Your comment is more patronising...

I'm not sure how ANY of these comments aren't patronizing.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: clairerise
Date: 13 May 06 - 08:37 AM

I've definitely wondered about it. And I've also sometimes wondered if sometimes they're lurking here but they get scared off by some of the things they see here.

Silly woman. They are not children, they are people. Not scared rabbits. I'm quite sure a few nasty words do not scare anyone from mudcat. Your comment is more patronising than the comments i think you claim scared them off.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:55 PM

Hey, I LOVE Spanish language songs...

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:50 PM

It'd be harder for Bobert to speak for them.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:49 PM

Even when it comes to English-language songs folk music goes a lot wider than "British-heritage trad ballads".

I'd like to see the Mudcat community broadening out to include more people with an interest in other folk music traditions. Of course I'd like the same to happen in the folk music community fenerally. In time maybe - I can remember a time in England when there was pretty well a complete lack of contact between the folk club scene and the immigrant Irish music scene.   That's hard to imagine now - but we've still got that situation for other immigrant and post-immigrant communities.

I've always been a bit surprised that the rich multi-ethnic musical scene in the USA doesn't appear to be too obviously reflected in the Mudcat. Not only Black music, but also Klezmer, Mexican, Cajun, Polish... Not just the music, but the people from the communities that keep the music alive.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:45 PM

It used to be specifically folk music & blues site..
That header sorta faded away at some point, as Max wants more 'diversity' than...ummmm....some of us. *grin* I used to point out the "sign over the door" when too much pop & rock were being discussed, but now I just 'go with the flow'...mostly.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:18 PM

Not another "you gotta be Black to sing the Blues" argument!!!! ;-)

(I've heard enough of those in my time...)

It may officially be a Folk & Blues site, gnu, but I have the strong impression that most of the members' primary interest is folk music with blues being seen as simply one variation of the broader folk theme. Blues was always an important part of folk music, a major influence, but it was one among many major influences, most of which were very unlike the Blues.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:15 PM

I guess I misunderstood you, Guest, 12 May 06 - 04:10 PM. However, I still disagree.

I love knowing what part of the world people come from, and even what their ethnic background is. All of these things are a part of make people interesting to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:10 PM

CarolC,

Re your post 12 May 06 - 12:19 AM:

In this post 11 May 06 - 11:26 PM I was referring to the race/ethnicity of the posters/contributors, which I assumed was the intent of the original post - not the ethnic/cultural origins of any style of music.

It should be obvious that being of African descent and having grown up around the Mississippi Delta, for example, would not automatically make one an "expert" on the origins of "the blues."

And while it obviously would be beneficial to a contributor to be able to address a certain subject based on his or her cultural experience, it isn't absolutely necessary.

If it were possible, I would welcome any post by Stevie Ray Vaughan dealing with any aspect of the blues, because he played and sang in that style with such conviction - without the benefit of having been born black or near the Mississippi Delta. In contrast, I probably wouldn't give much credence to country singer Charley Pride's thoughts on the subject of the blues, despite the fact that he's of African descent and was born in Sledge, MS.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 12 May 06 - 04:08 PM

We have Normans, Saxons, Celts, and the full rainbow spectrum of every interbreeding combination thereof. And rapaire (I think it is) is a full-blooded Pict. It's glorious.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:58 PM

Perhaps I am "off base" here, but, this is a BLUES and Folk site? I thought Max started this site mainly because of his love of the BLUES. Take a look at the Blues Museum on the main page.

I do find it odd, given the fact that it is a BLUES and folk site, that there are not more blacks posting than at present. I think the input would be tremendous because I have often pondered the developement of North American music and dance from African and European roots. Especially blues and rock & roll. I know, I know... bluegrass, counrty, western...

All we can do is wait... I am sure they all will come... after all, when you build the best mousetrap...

BTW, leechon is from China.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 06 - 03:15 PM

The folk craze of the 50's and 60's had a fan base that was overwhelmingly composed of middle-class whites, Azizi, and that is the only reason why the forum membership reflects that now. It was inevitable that it would.

There are a few Native Americans here. You are the only Black person I'm aware of as a member at the moment, but Jerry Rassmussen's wife is Black.

We had a Japanese member for awhile, maybe still, and we have some European members from various nations, and some Latin Americans too.

Of course, it makes it more interesting when there's a greater variety of people. No doubt.

Most people are "conservative" about whatever they are most familiar with and take for granted...in other words, they cling to it loyally, although they may well see themselves as "liberal" about a number of social issues that are identified as such the media, for example. Their liberalism may, in fact, be part of what they conserve or protect jealously...thus they are conservative about being liberal! To be "liberal" for them IS a conservative act. That's what Martin Gibson and a few other Mudcat inconoclasts are forever raising absolute hell about here. ;-) They object to other people's natural conservatism when to them it appears "liberal".

Everyone is bothered by someone else's way of being conservative or liberal or both.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:56 PM

Well, the I think the main reason there are so few other traditions here, relative to the English language folk/blues stuff, is that there simply are not enough people here who know about them. There are some people around who are interested in genre *X, but there are not enough of them to keep a discussion going.

There is no obvious discussion of genre X, so people who stumble across the 'cat don't realise that we might be interested, so we never get to a critical mass of people interested in genre X.





* genre X = any example you like....

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Bert
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:43 PM

Anyone and everyone is welcome here and we can't see and usually don't ask about skin color.

There are certain musical cultures that we are weak in here and we could use a boost from people who like other kinds of folk music.

And I deliberately didn't mention any specifics because I don't see the depth of ones sun tan as an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:39 PM

What if six turned out to be nine?

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 06 - 02:03 PM

It looks to me like the way to attract a broader cross section of the world's cultures, which as far as I can see is a goal that is worth encouraging, would be for people to post information about songs, music, and other kinds of folk arts and traditions from other cultures when they find them.

It looks like one way people find this site is through Google searches. If the Mudcat turns up in someone's Google search on traditional songs from Mali, for instance, they might be enticed to stick around and post a few more. The only thing that would inhibit their being able to do so would be an inability to communicate in English.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:32 AM

Actually Guest 7:51, I don't think Azizi posts that way. I haven't noticed that she mentions her race or culture any more often than other posters offering context do.

And I definitely get what she is saying about not wanting to be unique because of her race. That just sucks, because it brings out tokenism, passive aggressive nasty shit directed towards her solely on the basis of her race, that sort of thing.

Long before Azizi ever arrived here, it was pretty easy for me to discern most people here don't know--especially not intimately--many people of color.

Which is why I said what I said further up: most (not all) people here are socially conservative and xenophobic. A lot of the xenophobia we see here is rooted not just in fear of one new individual, but in not knowing what race and culture the newcomer is, hence fear they might not be "one of us".

The subsequent posts that said things like "it's like going down to the pub" or "there is nothing wrong with wanting to be around people you know/like..." (or however those posts were worded) is the sort of statements you see socially conservative people make.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: Grab
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:20 AM

If they're interested in blues and European folk music, and they can write comprehensible English, then the more the merrier. God knows that'd put them above some people already here... ;-) One big damper on African and East European input though is simply that the internet doesn't reach there yet (or not to any real numbers of people). Also need to consider cost, not just of a PC but also of an instrument (most people get into folk and blues by getting a guitar).

Another factor too. To make a sweeping general statement, interest in blues and European folk music are uncommon amongst some of the groups you've listed, because it's not traditional for their society, so they'd have to make more of an effort to get out and play it (or they're maybe less likely to have heard music which would influence them that way). And amongst younger blacks, it seems to me that blues is often regarded in a similar way as folk is amongst younger whites - music for old farts stuck in the past. In both cases, when people actually hear the real thing then they'll enjoy it, but it isn't generally considered cool - you certainly won't hear it on commercial radio or see it on TV, except in parody form which reinforces that image.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: What might Mudcat be like if -
From: GUEST,!
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:51 AM

"And sometimes in my opinion mentioning my race isn't relevant to my comment, so I don't include that information with that post" ~ Well I think you do exactly what you say you don't do Azizi.
You pretty much include some kind reference to your racial origins into most Threads you contribute to. For that is who you are after all.

You write as if the other people on this Forum know no-one of Color and/or have no knowledge of African American culture or any other World Cultures for that matter.
Have you thought about how many people here have partners and/or children with people of a different Culture and Race from their own. You would be very surprised.

I have wondered for a long time why you assume certain things.

That, of course, is only an opinion.
I wish you well.