BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?

Subject: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

We were on the river today - a boat trip.

A discussion ensued on how long there had been lockgates.

Most people thought they had first come about in the industrial revolution.

I wasn't so sure. Round Boston in Lincolnshire where I was brought up, they had long drains - sort of man made waterways - and there were lockgates between the drains and the river proper.   I didn't know, but I had alway supposed these drains had been around longer.

Also there is a sluice gate gate in Boston separating The Haven from the Witham - and this is really a sort of lock gate. And what about tidal rivers like the Exe - they have lock gates - how recent are they? didn't anybody try to control these waters before the industrial revolution.

anybody know about stuff like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:37 PM

Place to start the search.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:37 PM

"...Even the development of the canal-lock was so gradual that not only is its inventor unknown, but the land of its first adoption is in doubt, as well. Italy claims the honor for two brothers, engineers of Viterbo, in 1481, also for the versa the Leonardo da Vinci, engineer and painter. By some writers the discovery is attributed to Holland, a century earlier. However, it is definitely known that during.the latter part of, the fifteenth century locks were in use in both countries...."

http://www.history.rochester.edu/canal/bib/whitford/old1906/intro.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

oh thankyou!

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:06 PM

What a bloody good thread, Al. Something I have mused over meself, in a boaty kind of way. A few years back, I was staying with some mates near Milano, on the banks of a canal that yer code man Da Vinci designed, but the water charges down that at over six knots. I'm told it was built to deliver drinking water to Milano from the Italian Lakes, but that it was also used as a waterway. I can't believe that there's any locks on that stretch, as it was a downright hill.

Get back to us when you get some more griff on this. I thought as you did, that it was an IR thing, but them Dutch lads have been teaching us about draining fens a lot longer than that, and in South Ferriby, home to Benson's Tripe Works, Rugby Cement and a sometime contributor here, the River Ancholme is locked to keep the high tide out of the lower lying Vale of Ancholme, and to my certain knowledge, sea walls have been employed to reclaim farming land well before the IR, in the mid 18th century, so it is reasonable to suspect a crude lock would've been employed in such places, if just to repell high tides.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:11 PM

The Romans bult the Fossdyke( connecting the Trent to the Wash). Wasn't that locked? But that would have been the old single gate kind that stopped the water coming out of the system at low tide?
More facts please!

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:42 AM

I can't see any significant difference in principle between locks and the trip-dams that loggers use to move logs down the valleys to more substantial waterways. They've possibly been using those since Ugg chipped flint.
Wouldn't like to lock a boat down that way, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:47 AM

There's more than one kind of lock. The modern pound lock (that's top gates and bottom gates with a chamber inbetween) dates from the Renaissance in Europe, notably the Netherlands, and the Chinese had them much earlier. They appeared in Britain in the 16th century on the Exeter Canal, but didn't become widespread until the 18th century. The French and Germans had major canals using them from the second half of the 17th century onwards.

The older flash lock was just a dam across the river, with removable paddles and a gate. To go "downhill", the paddles were drawn, and the level allowed to drop until the gate could be winched open against the head of water. The boats above the dam would then "flash" through the gate, the extra water getting them over the shallow stretch below. When the flow had subsided enough, the boats below would be hauled through the gate, the gate closed, the paddles put back, and then they waited for the dam to refill. A horribly slow process, made slower by the fact that the dams were usually shared with a mill, and the miller would have the decision of when to flash. It could take months for a voyage up the Thames from London to Oxford and back. Some locks of this type lasted until the end of the 19th century on out-of-the-way rivers.

Of the Roman waterways, we are only reasonably sure of the Foss Dyke in Britain, but some heretic archaeologists, noticeably Raymond Selkirk, have argued for a much greater use of water transport, including the use of pound locks. It's worth reading his book, The Piercebridge Formula, even if he is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:25 AM

Birds called Lock Moss Nesters, as I've said pretty often in this forum, were all over the upper Mississippi River when I sang on steamboats there. (They make their nests from moss growing on the lock walls ;-)

And you can quote me!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:14 PM

Thankyou very much all of you for your contributions. You really are clever to know so much. I wish I had that wide spread of knowledge - most of the time, I bore myself even stupider than I am.

Thankyou Art - every time I read a little snippet of your on the road wisdom, I wish I knew you personally as a friend.

all the best to all

big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:15 PM

you want a lock - look at this one what goes around comes around................

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:46 PM

a little older but still going strong

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 02:54 PM

theres a canal in Ontario, where they link two bodies of water with a rail link, the boat is hoisted onto a trailer and pulled over rails a short distance.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:30 PM

I'm sorry to say that I can't remember where I recently (3 months ago?) read about a Roman canal through a Greek peninsula which, from my foggy recollection, had locks which must have been pound locks or something like.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:45 PM

It took Britain a few hundred years to catch up with Leonardo Da Vinci's locks.... I guess Venice sort of needed them more than we did...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Charmain
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:15 PM

You guys really know some stuff...this is a genuinely interesting thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:48 PM

Nothing but the Smartest Fools on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:41 AM

According to Wikipedia, there were two attempts to build the Corinth Canal in antiquity, neither successful, and the modern canal (which is at sea- level thoughout and has no locks) was not finished until 1893.

The Egyptians also had a major canal from the Nile to the Red Sea. No technical details are known, but: "King Darius says: I am a Persian; setting out from Persia I conquered Egypt. I ordered to dig this canal from the river that is called Nile and flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. Therefore, when this canal had been dug as I had ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, as I had intended." It would possibly have needed some kind of locks at the ends to allow this, though the boats could have been dragged over ramps- the Vikings were doing this in Scotland in the Middle Ages, hence all those places called Tarbet or Tarbert.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

Can't offer anything further on locks, but as far as sea walls go, this was something, extracted from Brewer's, that I published a few years back for one of my medieval societies...

"TENTERDEN STEEPLE was the cause of Goodwin Sands" is one way of responding satirically to any ridiculous sounding reason given for a state of affairs. So the story goes, according to one of Bishop Latimer's sermons, Sir Thomas More was sent to Kent to determine the cause of Goodwin Sands, the dangerous sandbanks of the East Kent coast. Calling together the oldest inhabitants to ask their opinion on the matter, one very old fellow ventured that he believed Tenterden Steeple to be the cause. He then explained that in his early days there was no steeple & also no complaints about the Sands. Though this might seem absurd, the fact of the matter is that the bishops of Rochester appear to have diverted money intended for the purpose of keeping Sandwich haven clear, to the building of the steeple, thus allowing the harbour silted up.

However the banks, still dangerous even now, actually begin more than 5 miles East of Deal (some 4 miles South of Sandwich) & stretch for about 10 miles toward NNE, which seems a little far from that harbour for it to be a direct cause. An alternative (& probably more likely) explanation is that the Sands were originally part of some 4000 acres of low-lying land, called Lomea (the Infera Insula of the Romans), reputedly the possession of Earl Godwin. After the usurpation, *I mean*, conquest, it was given by William to the abbey of St Augustine in Canterbury. Unfortunately, the sea wall that protected the land was allowed to decay, to the point where, in 1099, the sea inundated the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Fullerton
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:07 AM

Flash Locks were used on the River Douglas, in the parbold area, prior to its canalisation further downstream at Sollom. Mike Clark details this in his book on Leeds - LIverpool.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: KateG
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM

On June 6, Guest,ptr wrote: theres a canal in Ontario, where they link two bodies of water with a rail link, the boat is hoisted onto a trailer and pulled over rails a short distance.

That system is known as an inclined plane, and was first put to practical use on the Morris Canal in New Jersey, USA in the 1830's. Unfortunatly, that canal was dismantled in the 1920's (couldn't compete with the railways) and none of the planes survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM

I may be wrong but I believe that the port of Bristol, England, uses locks to keep the harbor full at low tide.   It is my understanding that these were built around the 15th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM

EBarnacle,

You are right about Bristol having a floating harbour. Not sure when it was first introduced though.

If you want lock gates, here one or two or ....
Caen Hill

Guess what we're doing in September. We'd better get in training.

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:33 PM

"Old Man River, How old's your lockgate?"

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

EBarnacle,

It looks like Bristol Floating Harbour was introduced at abpout the beginning of the 19th century.

Bristol Floating Harbour

cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:50 PM

Man, that UK place has got some interesting stuff. Gotta go there and stay a while to see at least some of it. What bank can I rob? Where's my 12-guage.....Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

"It's all right Ma, you're only dreamin'"

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:47 PM

KateG,

The inclined plane was certainly used earlier than 1830. There is an earlier example, the Hay Inclined Plane, at the Ironbridge World Heritage Site link here, or if you prefer,

"Item 10: Hay Inclined Plane, William Reynolds
Location: Approaching Coalport, before the Shakespeare Inn

The genius behind the Shropshire tub-boat canal system was William Reynolds (1758-1803), cousin of Abraham Darby III. He surveyed the route and oversaw the construction of the canal. The first of the six inclined planes, for which the Shropshire canals are famous, was built on Reynolds' private canal at Ketley.

The Hay incline was the equivalent of 27 locks and was worked by only four men. It could pass a pair of five ton tub-boats in four minutes whereas it would have taken up to three hours to raise a vessel up 27 locks.

By 1800, chains replaced the hemp ropes (see trail in partnership with the Eden Project).

In May 1801 four tub-boats were destroyed when a chain broke and a boat and cradle hurtled to the bottom. Later, wire ropes replaced the chains."

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: KateG
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:15 PM

Raedwulf:

I stand corrected...just goes to show you, never venture into historical discussions without consulting the old reference library first. Thanks for the input, it's always nice to have a new piece of trivia to clutter up the old brain!!!! Wish I could learn tunes as easily. And I really must get back across the pond and go see Ironbridge before I'm too much older, from everything I've read it's a facinating place for those of us who prefer historical sites focussing on industry and agriculture rather than battlefields or the mansions of the rich and famous (just a personal bias you understand, nothing agin the other sites for them what loves them, different strokes and all that).

KateG

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:38 PM

The Peterborough Lift Lock is a boat lift located on the Trent River in the city of Peterborough, Ontario, Canada and is Lock 21 on the Trent-Severn Waterway.

The dual lifts are the highest hydraulic boat lifts in the world, rising 19.8 m (65 ft). This was a considerable accomplishment when conventional locks usually only had a 2 m (7 ft.) rise. However it is not the highest boat lift in the world - the lift at Strépy-Thieu in Belgium being greater in both capacity (1350 tonnes) and height difference (73.15 metres).

The lift lock functions using a counterweight system. When one side reaches the top position it stops about 5 cm (2 inches) below the adjoining canal's water level. When the gates open water flows into the ship basin until the water level rebalances. The weight of the extra water is enough to power the hydraulic lift. As the top level lowers to the bottom position it pushes the other side up to the top position where the cycle starts over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_Lift_Lock

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Duane D.
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 04:19 PM

I grew up in northern NJ and we had several canals in the state. Of note, the Morris Canal, which originally ran from Phillipsburg, on the Delaware River, to Newark Bay, 102 miles long, was built to bring coal from Pennsylvania to NY City and was in operation from 1821 to 1924. You can read about it here. The canal had 23 locks and 23 inclined planes. The inclined planes were used to accomidate greater elevation changes, 35 to 100 feet. All but 1 inclined plane used water power, the force or the water falling from the higher to the lower level, to power the plane. The 1 inclined plane was located in Newark, NJ, and was powered by electricity, as a demonstration of how electricity could be used. Most of the eastern end of the canal is gone, but the western end from Waterloo Village to Phillipsburg is mostly intact.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:22 AM

Found this about the Egyptian canal, sounds like Darius didn't have a continuous canal, but hauled the boats over portages. Ptolemy II reconstructed it with what sounds like a flash lock (because a chamber lock wouldn't have needed "quickly"):

An artificial canal leads from the Pelusian arm to the Arabian Gulf and the Red Sea. The first attempt to construct this was made by Necho, the son of Psamtik; The Persian Darius continued the work up to a certain point, but, finally, did not finish it, as he was told that the piercing of the isthmus would cause an inundation of the whole of Egypt, it being proven to him that the Red Sea was more elevated than Egypt. Later Ptolemy II finished the canal, and ordered a lock constructed with much artifice to be built at the most appropriate place. This he had opened before and closed quickly after every passage, thus never leaving it open longer than was necessary. The canal is called Ptolemy after its builder, and at its exit lies a city called Arsinoe.

Diodorus Siculus

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:04 AM

"it being proven to him that the Red Sea was more elevated than Egypt."

Learn something new at Mudcat, every day, I do...

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:40 PM

Worsley Delph was built in 1755, this mine working was operated by loclgates........ it also had an incline plane as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 04:01 AM

Apparently the sea level difference between the Mediterranean and the Red Sea (actually the Gulf of Aqaba) was measured in 1963 as 24cm, which wouldn't be enough to require a lock once the losses due to evaporation and the channel resistance are taken into account. Certainly the Egyptians couldn't have measured this, the flying saucers had long departed, so I suspect priestly resistance at work here. Or perhaps the gate was more to protect the canal from Nile floods.

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 01:13 PM

Ah, bobad, you beat me to it! I was staying within a stones-throw of the Lift Lock on Friday night!

I was born and raised at Lock 8 of the Welland Ship Canal, St Lawrence Seaway. I LUV locks!

And Art - hey! They got them birds in Inverness too!

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:36 PM

"I was born and raised at Lock 8"

TTO: "I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine..."

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: rich-joy
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:42 AM

I think the Canal du Midi, in the hilly south of France, is Europe's oldest manmade waterway (mid 1600's?) and has numerous lifts/locks etc, with some spectacular scenery and towns - that trip (in 1979), was the best holiday I've ever had!!


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

Did Da Vinci do design work on canals?

Subject: RE: BS: Lockgates on rivers - how old?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:01 PM

Leonardo drew plans for a canal with locks serving Florence. This study included economic projections for cost. He presents studies of several other canals as issues of irrigation, erosion, flow rate and rate of ascent/descent. He also compares rivers and canals and addresses flood control. His general means of control seems to be sluices. "The Notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci," Edward MacCurdy, 1939.