MySpace policies - ?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:09 AM

Lizzie, this discussion is about the LEGAL TERMS not who owns the site. Whether it's a giant like Murdoch or some little Joe McNobody, if you're signing something over to them you need to know exactly what it is you're agreeing to be bound by.

(I mis-typed "signing" as "singing" - wishful thinking, perhaps?)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:02 AM

I'm still with Ian Anderson on this, just as, I'd presume, that *for once* he is still with me. Would there be this much discussion and slagging off going on over Myspace, if Rupert Murdoch did not, at present, own it?


Oh....and you may like to read this, seems Billy's making it in New York these days too, and don't just read about Billy, read what Myspace themselves are saying:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/424418p-358103c.html

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:46 AM

The alternative take on that crucial clause on content was made thus by a contributor to Billy Bragg's site:

That clause does not mean myspace owns the content. it says they have a licence to that content. there's a big difference. The publisher/writer/etc. still owns all rights... but myspace gets to store, display, and use the content. It's like software, you the rightful (non-pirate ) owner are granted a licence to use the software -- but not to make copies of it or use the code etc. This clause i think basically protects MySpace from hassles over the fact that copywritten content is all over their site. by posting content here, you're granting MySpace a licence to actually have it on their site and display it to the world. (anything you create is automatically copyright to you BTW, unless you put it in the public domain, of course... and interestingly i'd interpret this licensing clause as meaning myspace isn't public domain, which means you keep ownership of anything you post say in your blogs... which is good)... so the ownership of the content is not in question... but according to that clause it seems like myspace basically gets to do whatever they feel like with the content... it protects them, it allows the site to function smoothly for everyone... but it doesn't seem to protect MySpace from "re-using" content or from giving it to other people. and that's where IMO the problem might be

I quote this not because I agree with it but because it's the only coherent, non-hysterical, contrary point of view I have come across. I think it's too complacent and I, like Bonnie, would be very wary indeed of entering into a contract that doesn't end with the removal of material. However, I've never heard of Russell Brand either and really don't know or care if this reduces my credibility in the nu-media blatant self-promotion stakes.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:22 AM

Re the clause Liam has pointed out: In the original article which kicked off this thread (if anyone can remember back that far) Andrew Orlowski writes: "It's the return of the old favorite, the ambiguous ownership contract. Myspace is actually using a boilerplate text designed to allow it to republish the content. Five years ago Microsoft was forced to change a similar, but even more acquisitive click... Apple had introduced a similar click through before retreating, and two years ago Google attached almost identical terms to its Orkut service. That was in 2004, the bloggers' love affair with the ad giant was still untarnished, and very little protest was heard."

The bloggers' love affair with the ad giant. Hmmmm. Anyway, I have since seen the offending clause pop up in a number of places, some of them quite alarming such as ordinary retail sellers' terms & conditions (my post 10:03) so it's something a lot of outfits are obviously latching onto. I STILL think that we won't know for sure what the actual consequences are until there's some real money at stake. Like when some MySpacer has a global smash hit with a song. There have been precedent-making lawsuits over this sort of thing before, and that could well be another.

A final word on MS (MySpace, not Micro$oft): Before a lot of people jump in saying what a good thing MySpace is for artists' exposure & contact, etc: PLEASE – WE ALL AGREE ON THAT. As a useful, even fascinating, fun way to hear/display new talent and make new friends, it's great. Ian (I think it was Ian?) describes it as a do-it-yourself John Peel show, which is the best definition I ever heard. But that's not in dispute. It is the question of how vulnerable these artists are, and I don't think that's been really proved yet because it's probably going to take a landmark law case to settle.   

And I STILL don't know the difference between "the license" which ends, and the "Agreement" which does not (my post 6:15). An agreement that doesn't terminate with the removal of one's material is something I would sure want to know more about before submitting to. There has been a truly thundering silence on this topic which suggests that no one else knows either.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:18 AM

My apologies to Russell Brand I don't watch Big Brother or read those papers (I live in Ireland). So the name was unfamiliar to me, and I have seen too much of that sort of Satanist/cult rhetoric on the internet which wasn't fake, so have to confess I didn't read all the way through it. The first paragraphs were enough to put me off, as is the insulting open letter to Billy Bragg. If it's a send up, OK - but there's nothing in the letter to indicate that, and it reads exactly like so much other abuse and hate-flames that are for real. There certainly IS a Russell Brand MySpace page that starts out with that "my cult" verbiage and claims to be the same "Russell" who wrote the open letter. But I didn't stay with it after about half a page, so missed the fact that it was intended to be humourous. I think a lot of people, if they only see the open letter, might react in the same way but maybe it was only me having a bad hair day.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 06:52 AM

...but you can't add your music to the BBC in he way that you're encouraged to do on myspace.

Interesting though and again something I think people should at least be aware of.

BBC are an odd lot with the boards BTW. A few of us have been modded out for posting maybe a verse, link to an arrangement, etc. of our own work on the grounds it infringes copyright. I've also seen traditional songs suffer the same fate. On the other hand, I've seen cases that I'm sure clearly do breach thier rules copyright stand. That, unlike some of the comments I've read lately, is one of the genuine mysteries of the BBC moderation system.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 06:31 AM

>>I know it was a long way up this thread, but for the record I seriously doubt that Russell Brand posted the link to his own blog above. He's a comedian, TV presenter on Channel 4 (he presents a Big Brother show) and MTV, and a columnist for the Guardian

Phone him up and ask him. He's broadcasting his regular Sunday morning show live on BBC Radio 6 at the moment. It is rather more entertaining than listening to Parky.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 06:02 AM

I know it was a long way up this thread, but for the record I seriously doubt that Russell Brand posted the link to his own blog above. He's a comedian, TV presenter on Channel 4 (he presents a Big Brother show) and MTV, and a columnist for the Guardian. Hes also a ex-heroin addict and describes himself as a "sex addict" - he was in the tabloids last week for sleeping with Kate Moss.

I do like the idea that he hangs around mudcat trying to plug his own myspace blog, but I'm sure its not true...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 05:44 AM

Yes Liam, but you can't add your music to the BBC in he way that you're encouraged to do on myspace. The BBC is also regulated by the govt, the governers and OFCOM, no one regulates myspace.

Does the right issue go for adverts as well? Could Rupert sell off say, the Show of Hands song Roots for a hair dye ad?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 02:29 AM

In all this discussion of the concern about MySpace's terms, has anyone noticed clause 9 of the BBC's for their messageboard? Those are very similar, wrt the contributor granting the BBC a non-exclusive licence to anything they place on the BBC's servers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/

Namely

"Where you are invited to submit any contribution to bbc.co.uk (including any text, photographs, graphics, video or audio) you agree, by submitting your contribution, to grant the BBC a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, sub-licenseable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, play, make available to the public, and exercise all copyright and publicity rights with respect to your contribution worldwide and/or to incorporate your contribution in other works in any media now known or later developed for the full term of any rights that may exist in your contribution, and in accordance with privacy restrictions set out in the BBC's Privacy Policy. If you do not want to grant to the BBC the rights set out above, please do not submit your contribution to bbc.co.uk."

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:21 AM

Fair enough - I thought so, but these are paranoid days...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Russells goat
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:31 AM

Bonnie, Russell Brand is a comedian or so he thinks anyway.

Billy replied to the thread,

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=81619316&blogID=130719844&MyToken=3754229c-f904-417e-9692-ba2483

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:30 PM

You should read my webpage, where I say on teh bottom of my homepage :-)
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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:28 PM

It is entirely possible that the "big names" have negotiated their own individual agreements with MySpace. Agreements which do not have the language in question.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

Well, it's been a long day. Thought I'd go for a wander around the net and clear my brain a little, maybe browse some music stuff. So I surfed about here and there, and landed in a nice-looking website that serves as an e-retailer for assorted small-label & independent non-commercial/mainstream CDs, as well as sheet music. I run a little publishing company so I thought I might consider placing some stock with them. Their sales policies and assorted money matters seemed quite straightforward, so I clicked on the Terms & Conditions (which to be fair were not hard to access or to read). And I got the most incredible feeling of deja-vu. (Richard – if you see this – thanks for making me aware of a lot of things I'd never even thought of before. I'm sorry you're gone.)

Anyway, below is the relevant excerpt – notice how certain phrases sound eerily familiar, things like "perpetual" and "non-exclusive" and "sub-licensable". They also want you to waive moral rights. There's a bit at the end about terminating your sales agreement with them, returning stock etc. But not a word about nullifying that license.

What is going on that you're expected to hand over these sorts of rights to an ordinary SALES RETAILER (and they will only handle things initially on a sale-or-return basis, which is already pretty risk-free)?   This is a small outfit run by what do appear to be honest, quite aproachable & sincere people (and the type of music they deal in is never going to make anyone rich). So how common IS this sort of thing? Do Amazon & MusicRoom require stuff like this?   

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???????

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:07 PM

And we thought killing off Farty Marty was progress...

Sigh!

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:12 PM

Nice going, Lizzie. Probably the single most important contributor to this thread and you just HAD to piss him off didn't you? He might have been able to help with that license/agreement confusion but no chance of that now thanks to you and your obsessions. Yet another discussion polluted.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:40 PM

Thanks for the clarification, I think, Jeri.

To be honest, while I read one way the first time, even though you have emphasised part, I not clear as to who is calling the idiots. I don't see why the artists who believe the naysaying (effectively agreeing that Rupies terms are wrong) would be calling the Rupie haters idiots.

Maybe it's one of those different sides of the atlantic things or maybe I've just had a bad day (struggling to get my head round a microcontroller board) and my brain is tired.

Aoplogies to Jed if due.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:11 PM

What Jed said was "and so, apparently all of the artists who believe the naysaying, Rupie haters are simply blowing smoke are idiots."

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:46 PM

Lizzie, why the hell don't you look up who I am and what my track record is? My former partner James Wolsey and I, and some of our assitants, some years back, acted for some bands whose turnover was bigger than the GDP of many countries, and probably each of them as much as all those you cite put together.

You want to dream on, dream on.

You can take a horse to water......

Out of this thread now.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

I think the Big Names and their promo teams are well able to take care of their own interests and, if necessary, pay the legal costs of taking Murdoch to court. That doesn't mean smaller fish like me are swimming in safe waters - I can't afford to lose the rights to my recordings, nor can I afford legal costs to deal with a Californian court.   Murdoch won't be trying to pull any kind of a fast one with the Big Names - that's clearly doomed to all kinds of failure - but the Big Names are worth having on MySpace to pull in lots more people.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist and have consistently tried to see the sunnier side of the whole thing, but unless and until I hear directly from MySpace that their intentions are pure, unsullied and clear of ambiguity I remain dubious.

Anne

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

Guess I must have missunderstood Rupie haters are simply blowing smoke are idiots." then Jed.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

Jon - of course the legal and marketing folks for very big name artists reviewed very carefully the terms of contract. I doubt very seriously ANY of the stars actully set up their own Myspace pages. These are marketing decisions made by big time promo teams. You can be certain they read every bit of fine print ... and of course, I would not accept that out-of-hand as my only proof that the agreement was OK - but it is a strong indication. I am in good company. The numbers and stature of those artists and their opinions ARE meaningful to me.

And certainly you don't see anywhere in my text where I called someone an idiot.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:43 AM

Point taken Lizzie.
Don't suppose you'll want the next PJD cd then.
OK
R

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM

I too have made friends on MySpace, but quite frankly I don't think it's worth continuing my involvement there if there's a risk that my songs might be ripped off by Murdoch.   I joined initially because it was warmly recommended by various friends and fellow musicians - but I don't think they had read the T&Cs, any more than I paid much attention to them at the time.

I feel older and wiser now. Yes, it may be a wonderful place to find new music and new friends, but it's a potentially hazardous place, too, for an independent songwriter.

I'm leaving my music hanging in there for a few days, until I can get a clear response to my message to the Customer Services Dept. So far the response that's arrived has had nothing whatsoever to do with my message to them, which doesn't bode well.

But can we please have some legal clarification of the wording, as requested by me some messages back and by Bonnie, repeatedly since?

Does anyone know?   Because it sounds to me as if the licence wittingly or unwittingly granted to Murdoch ceases once the music on the site is removed - and if the licence ceases, so does the risk of exploitation. That's if the word "licence" is being used in its usual sense.

Oh, and hi, Ralph!

Anne

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: dwditty
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:23 AM

Bonnie,

Back to my point about the legal system. It doesn't matter what the terms say about the rights...it only matters whose lawyer makes the better argument. It is a risk no matter what. If you do not want to take the risk, I would be hard pressed to argue that it is not the best choice. That said, I am still taking it. I may be a fool, but I am my own fool.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:20 AM

Jed, it's not so much "nay-saying" as nay-QUESTIONING. There are some pretty big issues to consider here. I have a lot of respect for the various opinions I've heard voiced, but what I want is hard fact. What I DON'T want is to see people polarised in opposition to each other. We all love the music and value interesting ways of discovering new talent. But that's not in debate.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Alba
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM

MySpace. My Music. My Choice. No Thanks. Decided that a while back.

Thank You as always Richard for the Legal Information. (I trust your advice a hellava lot more than I would trust any of RM's Legal Crew!)

Best to All
J

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM

If you CAN end their rights to your product, Ditty. Richard has stated pretty unequivocally that you can't, and he's a legal professional. I still have that question nagging away at my mind which I first voiced in the 6:15 post - to wit (all together now, one, two three):

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" ???????

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

That makes sense dw.

Jed Marum, numbers of people doing something has and never will mean much in this way. How many people even bother to read small print for starters? How many people get swept along by a craze for another, etc .

I'm trying to understand the legal business and am listning to what people have to say on this subject. Blinding me with numbers will not work nor will calling people who are trying to understand the terms, idiots.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

You see dwditty - that is my point. Music is my livelihood and my passion. Myspace offers me some very useful networking opportunities and posting my music there offers me some no cost "advertizing" as well. I sell on-line, CDs and MP3s every week to people who found me through Myspace - and I am developing good business contacts as well.

The huge stars, carefully marketed and managed by the big star making machnery also see the value in Myspace - and, like me have judged the agreement in question to be benign.

I really believe this whole issue is manufactured and counterproductive. Myspace is a genuine help for mid-level professional artists like me. I would never place any unpublished works that I wanted to protect there - but I would always be careful how those are published anyway.

I just don't believe there is any merit to the naysayer's arguement in this case.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: dwditty
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM

There is not much doubt that posting anything very dear on the internet is risky....yes even here on mudcat. There are creeps everywhere. Perhaps MySpace is a ploy to garner rights to all the world's music, in which case they are off to a pretty good start with nearly a quarter of a million musicians posting there. Perhaps they have strong language in their terms to limit their liability due to the actions of some of their users. One thing I have learned is that no legalese is immune to "interpretation," so it doesn't much matter what the terms say. SOoner or later some lawyer will get some judge to agree with an interpretation that causes one party to win and one party to lose....this is our justice system. This discussion is useful in that it may help some people decide if they want to use MySpace services or not. In my case, it is not a life or death issue. I make music for enjoyment. Were it my livelihood, I would probably guard it closely, but for now I get a kick out of knowing that someone thousands of miles away is listening to my music. If I get ripped off, I will decide then if I want to pull off of MySpace and end their "rights" to my product. If you are concerned about the terms of MySpace, by all means don't use it.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:40 AM

Jon, I agree. I am interested in the legal issues.

The personal rehashing would be better dealt with by PMs, imo.

FWIW, over the years I have found hundreds of musicians, right here at Mudcat, whom I would never have known about and have their CDs as a result, as well friendship with some. Didn't need any myspace to accomplish that!:-)

Richard, thank you for sharing your legal expertise. My brother has been looking into ways of putting his music up on the web. I'd seen a little bit about myspace, but will NOT recommend it, esp. based on what you have told us. Much appreciated.

kat

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:36 AM

Ralph...Grrrrrrrrr!!!

I didn't come up to you at Sidmouth because you had already started ranting at me on the Radio 2 board! You didn't seriously expect me to feel at ease about saying hello? But I was grinning at you, from ear to ear. And you grinned back too!

AND...YOU are lecturing ME! I don't much care who you know or have known in the past, present or future! I'm just saying that you have a right to your opinions over Myspace and I have a right to mine. AND...as I am in there a great deal and have come into contact with loads of wonderful people, ONLY because of Myspace...and have discovered an absolute wealth of musical treasure in there, I will continue to sing it's praises!

Everywhere I go people tell me to write how THEY want me to write, to only talk about what THEY want me talk about, to not use Smilies, to not write overlong pieces, to not talk about Myspace or Show of Hands or a thousand other artists who don't fit in with the English Traditionalists Right Accent Club, to not DARE to write about what is happening in this world around us, and then to talk about songs that are highlighting it!! All the time.."Don't! Don't! Don't!"

Well I DO and I WILL!

I too have learned a great deal Ralph. A GREAT deal about the people I choose to support, about the people I have respect for...and I have had NOTHING but kindness and civility shown to me on Myspace. It is a great place, with many, many lovely people in there.

I stand by all that I said above. And I will NOT change my mind, despite the continual heckling that goes on.

I think we should simply agree to disagree and both respect each other's opinions.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM

... and so, apparently all of the artists who believe the naysaying, Rupie haters are simply blowing smoke are idiots.

I think a quick look at those of us signed to Myspace (some listed above) show just how many idiots there are.

And perhaps chicken little was right.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Ralph
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:53 AM

Lizzie.
I refuse to be lectured/hectored by you on this subject.
You assume a lot, and actually know very little.
I had the honour of working with John Peel for over 30 years. Andy Kershaw for at least 20. Verity and Fiona on Late Junction since it's inception. I have also produced several CD's (Not least being Nic Jones "Unearthed")

The whole point of this thread (as I see it) was to make people aware of the dangers in giving up the rights of their work to someone else....no more, no less.
I will not apologise for warning artists to avoid such a place as My Space.
If you want to find artists/tunes/songs/ etc...Just ask the questions here!!
I've learnt an enourmous amount from the good people of the Cat. From all parts of the world. All given (nearly!!) with good heart and good spirit.
Knowing how some artists have been ripped off by various shysters over the years. I'm hardly going to give a glowing endorsement to, what is a frankly, very dodgy outfit run by a very rich foreigner.

And to finish, that, as someone who didn't even have the courage to come up to me at Sidmouth in Feb to say hello. How dare you assume that you understand what my agenda might be.

End Ralph

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

I like myspace. Lots fo hits...met lots of other local musicians...and I keep in touch with my kids, to boot.

That's fine dwditty. I don't think anyone is disputing there are not useful sides to myspace.

The point of this thread (at least to me) though is over actual terms and conditions on the site which as far as I can see (and a lawyer has explained) could be of concern to artists. If someone else can offer a different legal interpretation of what is written down, I'd be pleased to read it...

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:27 AM

LC: Save it for the Celtic Music No 7 thread which should be along by and by. This will contain (as usual) a dedicated reservation for those who like to flaunt their complete ignorance of how the music industry operates and equate, amazingly, the wearing of a suit with truthfulness.

Bonnie: I'm not sure but I'm trying to get it charified.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:20 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" - re my post of 6:15 - ???

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: dwditty
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

I like myspace. Lots fo hits...met lots of other local musicians...and I keep in touch with my kids, to boot.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

Er..no...Ian Anderson actually came on to disagree with what you appeared to be insinuating and he stood up completely for the company that you were so eager to try and malign.

And it was a pleasure to put Ian's site on here.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:11 AM

This is completely off-topic (though actually related, hypothetically and in an odd way) to the actual subject matter of this thread. Just in case anyone knows (or cares) what LC is blathering about, I'll make this brief statement:

(1) I apologised for the flippant way in which I had raised a serious matter (as I do often) concerning music distribution which has 'potential repercussions' on ARTISTS. Irony does not always come over well on line.

(2) It was no 'outburst' but evidence from an ongoing investigation into said distribution methods which had been put to the company concerned with no reponse. Since it is permissable to speak of those involved here (though not at the BBC) the precise matter may well re-emerge in this forum. It has before.

(3) Ian Anderson does not disagree with me. We have differences of emphasis on MySpace but on the matter of ripping off artists, we are one. (Oh, and by the way, he thanks you very much for directing people towards Vulturama . . . )

End of . . .

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" ???

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

Don't you go giving me any of that nonsense! You actually had to apologise...possibly for the first time known to man, woman or beast!!


The repercussions from that outburst the other day could have been dreadful! And did you care? NO! The only thing you cared about was slamming into someone, with as it turned out, the wrong opinion. And once again, Ian Anderson publicly disagreed with you on that one too!

So once more, I also re-iterate what I have said.

By all means tell people about your 'anxieties' but then, let them make their own decisions.

Oh and Richard, to quote you.."Read my lips"....Has Dolly phoned yet?

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:27 AM

VERY last time (and purely to correct LC's bollox-spouting:

(1) I am NOT legally qualified (except to intermediate in French law)

(2) It is not 'libel' to point out matters of fact which a party finds uncomfortable and would prefer not to have mentioned. It is 'potentially defamatory' , in which the burden is on the plaintiff to prove loss.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:12 AM

Well, if you're so well qualified in legal things Diane, it's a great shame that you let your tongue run you into libellous conversations over on the Radio 2 board recently then! And you did it in only one language.

Personally, after seeing your 'legal' knowledge on that thread I'd run as far in the opposite direction from you, or your opinions, as fast I possibly could!

I'm sure Richard does his job very well. I expect Dolly Parton will be on the phone to him any minute!

And Bonnie...there are always TWO sides to everything.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:52 AM

LC: Nothing changes if nothing changes

What kind of a meaningless platitude is that?

John Tams: Nothing changes it all stays the same

Some things do - like peeps with selective hearing. Richard Bridge is going to be highly amused at this slur on his legal experience. Unlike him I'm not a lawyer but am merely qualified to translate contracts in three languages. Unsurprisingly, I've always looked askance at clauses which assign ridiculously stacked advantages to one party and wonder how on earth pens ever touched parchment. In a different life though I've also known many a struggling artist who signed stuff in desperation and without advice just to get a start, or whose rights (non-exclusive or at any rate shared) were transferred over their heads to a different and very much less co-operative owner. Life's tough enough without struggling to get back what's yours and future potential victims need all the advice they can get to avoid falling into the rip-off trap.

(Note to Bonnie: last time . . .)

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:19 AM

Lizzie, PLEASE!!! There are NOT two sides to this coin. There is ONE: the legal side.

This thread is not about opinions or wishes or what music one loves. Its about GETTING RIPPED OFF.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:15 AM

Is there a difference between the "license" and the "Agreement" (note capital letter)?

In the T&Cs (at least until Rupie changes them without warning) you get the Term, which is shown first, in which it says the bit about the Agreement remaining in effect even after you leave. The only place where it says the license will terminate when you remove your stuff is under Clause 6, which comes AFTER the term. The two statements appear to contradict each other - or is there some distinction between "the license" which ends, and the "Agreement" which doesn't, even after you've terminated the license as per the terms of Clause 6? Does the Term take precedence over Clause 6?

My spell-checker turned "Rupie" into "rupee". Apt.

- - -

Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Services or are a Member... You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason... MySpace.com may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, INCLUDING SECTIONS 5-17. [My caps - BS]

And then, a bit further down in No. 6

6. Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.
... This license will terminate at the time you remove such Content from the Services.

Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 06:12 AM

Ralph! You are driving me nuts at present! Grrrrrrrrr! OoooH! Grrrrrrrr! ;0)

I'm not 'ordering' musicians to go and get a page. If people have such closed down minds, well...there is nothing I can do about that. Each to their own. But just as much as YOU think I'm bossing you and others around...I think you're doing exactly the same, by constantly advocating the people should NOT go into Myspace.

There are TWO sides of this coin.

Over 80 million people are in there now. And the people whom I have been talking to, are not the sort who'd buy a Rupie Compilation Album! I've had e mails from some people which say that THEIR lawyers HAVE looked into all the details and they are entirely satisfied! I know that Richard is saying the opposite, but as Jed said earlier....do you really think that the big stars, who can afford the best lawyers in the WORLD would be in there, if there were such major problems??????

AND....even if Rupie tried something on....do you seriously think that he'd get away with it, with an army of music lawyers in there?
These guys are used to dealing with music contracts, they do it every day of their lives for the mega stars. I truly cannot believe that they've ALL overlooked something which Richard apparently has not.

I'm just saying that to dissuade people is wrong. Tell people to read the small print and get it checked....fair enough...everyone should do that anyway. But to say people shouldn't use it purely because Rupie owns it now..well..that way lies madness, in my opinion.

I am totally, 100% with Ian Anderson on this one (shock! horror!) ;0) Ian has said many a time something along the lines that this is a very valuable site. He can see the positives, just as I can. Do you honestly think that Ian would have his music playing on there if he was worried? LOOK!:

http://www.myspace.com/vulturama

I can understand Billy's reaction, but whilst I appreciate what he's doing, in trying to get the legalities made clear to everyone, even those without highly over-paid lawyers...I think it has been an over-reaction.

The amount of music that I have discovered Ralph, from right around the world is mind-boggling! The places that site is taking me to cannot be over-enthused about! It does not just open up music, it opens up people and it opens up minds. It is uniting the world in a way that has never happened before. The other day I 'fell' into the songs of Vinnie James, such wonderful songs about what is happening in this troubled world of ours!

http://www.myspace.com/vinniejames

Oh, his words are so wise! We immediately got his 'All American Boy' CD and every single song just took me to yet more places that I want to be. Yet, I'd never have found Vinnie had it not been for Myspace! Music like his can make such a difference to this world and our children. And NOW, through his page...Vinnie has 'a voice'...He CAN let his music be heard right around the world and we are all switching in and listening to him, believe you me!

He is part African, part Native American and the wisdom he has...well, it gives you hope for the future. Through Vinnie's page I have found many Native American sites. And Oh...you can literally feel the pain of the Native American people coming off their pages! And when you read what they say, realise their wisdom and how we should all be adopting their outlook, not only for ourselves but for the sake of this incredible planet..well, it makes you rage inside that they have been so overlooked for so long!

And the anger of the Hawaiian people too. And as you move from country to country you begin to see that so many of us are feeling the same....sick of the way the world is at present, wanting desperately to change it, knowing that we HAVE to!

Yes, it's ironic that one of the world's richest corporate businessmen is now in charge of this wondrous site, but maybe...just MAYBE..he was 'meant' to buy Myspace for a purpose that even he never dreamt of. Perhaps even Rupert Murdoch is having his eyes opened in a way he never has before! MAYBE...even HE is tuning in and watching...watching as the Native Americans begin to link with others around the world, taking their wisdom with them, as the indigenous peoples of the planet begin to stand up and say "ENOUGH!"....as we all begin to realise that actually, we are all ONE PEOPLE!

And it is happening through their music Ralph!

There have been three phrases I've seen recently in Myspace which won't leave my head:

"Turning one voice into millions"
"We are all in this together"

And....

"Nothing changes if nothing changes"


I'm afraid that I have come to realise that there is a certain element within the English Traditional world which *wants* nothing to change, in any way whatsoever. But it IS changing...and you cannot stop it. BUT...it is changing for the better! British music should be known about on the other side of the world, just as people's music over there, should be known about, discussed and played over here. Myspace gives the world that opportunity! AND...it is a golden opportunity, not just for Rupert to make more money from advertising, but for millions of others, in a very different way.

If you don't want to know, fair enough. But I'd say it is unfair to do all in your power to put people off. Tell them the anxieties you have by all means, but then let people make up their own minds and explore deeper. The legal advice on this page comes from just one person, I believe. There is no way that we know that it is correct, any more than we know that it is not. These are all just opinions.

With great respect Richard, I'm sure there are thousands of lawyers who have perused Rupert Murdoch's contracts with a magnifying glass, month after month, before advising their clients to put their music up on site.

I'm with Jed Marum on this one. See his posts above.

Oh....and TALKING of Jed....I found his music yesterday and it is wonderful!! Yesterday afternoon Jed was in my living room...hour after hour....and he lives in Texas! But we were playing his music over and over. Take a listen to 'Soul Of A Wanderer'...it will bring tears to your eyes, the way that Jed sings it...such tenderness!

http://www.myspace.com/jedmarumband


...and all I know Ralph, is that my world would be that little bit less bright if I'd not found Jed's music, and way darker if I had not found Vinnie's. And each time this happens, another star is lit, another light comes on in my life....and I pass those lights on to my children too.

Would I ever want to lose the sheer *beauty* of the section of the human race that I have found, which lies within Myspace?

NEVER....EVER!



Lizzie :0)