BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara

Subject: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM

This was on the History Channel, tonight. Did anyone else watch it? What did you think? I found it difficult to watch because it brought up such emotions, no suprise there. I think what really bothered me, though, was my own caparisons between those times and now, with what is going on in Iraq. I know we don't need to hash that out, again, but I would be very interested in hearing different perspectives on this particular documentary and what Robert S. McNamara had to say.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:29 AM

I saw it first quite awhile back on one of the premium channels and enjoyed watching McNamara try to atone for his sins.

The guy went through several giant signal events in his life that have, over the years, affected him deeply.   Now, I do believe he is sincere in what he says but it doesn't change what he did. I wish he had taken that last step and said simply, "I fucked up and I'm sorry."

Certainly his background and the times weighed heavily on his thinking then. I am sure he is a changed man now. Just one more victim of VietNam but with the luxury of breathing. I'm sure he hurts but I didn't need the "qualifiers." I would have been more ready to accept them had he made the statement above first.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:07 AM

Lots of people should make that statement, Spaw. People who are still living. People from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:17 AM

How about the weird music by Philip Glass?

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: MAG
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:15 PM

I saw it in an art theater when it first came out.

I had a strong reaction when the man actually said, "We were wrong."

Being an unreconstructed 60's peacenik, I got a lot of grim pleasure out of that.

He clearly laid the blame for the escalation in Vietnam at Johnson's feet, but you notice he did not resign in protest.

He went on to work at the, what was it, the World Bank or the IMF?

They have caused a lot of third world misery too.

For what it was, I'd recommend it as a breath of fresh air on those days.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:22 PM

I greatly enjoyed hearing him say what he had to say, when I saw this on DVD two years ago. I think it took courage.

The MOST interesting section was the dialogue with the Viet Cong general who disabused him of the WHOLEE PREMISE of the war -- that the VC were motivated by Communist ideology -- when in fact they were motivated by the spirit of homeland defense and repelling foreigners from their country, if memory serves to fail me correctly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM

People betray their countries for one of four reasons: Money, Ideology, Conscience, Ego. They defend them for the same reasons, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM

Ah yes, Robert Strange McNamara. Mr. Management Science. One of the Ford Motor Company & JFK's Whiz Kids. The master of Statistical Control and the waging of war. He is one of the main reasons why I was so terrified by the Rand Corp (prodigal son of Project Rand and Douglas Aircraft).

It was a chilling documentary, and the visual style & Philip Glass music only enhanced the creepiness of it all.

Unlike others, I took no solace in his admission of being wrong about Vietnam, because I got the sense from the film he was only mouthing those words. I didn't believe him.

But the absolute scariest part for me was him talking about the nuke strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:46 AM

I think he was right about nuking Japan. I think it was wrong.

At the same time they didn't really comprehend the horror of that action because they were desensitized by the horrors the Japanese and Germans had inflicted on the US and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:49 AM

Hindsight makes things clearer; I agree with you, Fernando. It was not understood, when Truman made his decision, how close the Japanese internal politics were to capitulation already. There were running conflicts between the hard-core miltarists,w ho were willing to fight and die in the ditches of Japan in order to do some more killing, and the Imperial court, who wanted to fold their hand and negotiate for some kind of future.

Without complete visibility into this part of the scene, it looked like Truman's decision wa sone which saved thousands of American lives which would have been lost in the effort of invading the islands and taking them over by force.

But, wow...what a gruesome, awful, despicable result. It is surely somethign that must never, ever be repeated in our history.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: MAG
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:32 AM

Japan had been trying to surrender for two months, and was only negotiating for terms.

The bomb was a bunch of boys who needed to see what their new toy would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:37 AM

Historically speaking, I believe that every new weapon that is developed by a powerful country WILL be used. Which doesn't bode well for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:48 PM

Didn't see the recent documentary, but read his book in the mid-90s. It was 30 years too late for an apology then; it's 40 years too late now.

I wonder when Rumsfeld will write his book? 2500 and counting. Where will we build this wall?

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:41 PM

I've watched it many times.

Up until 8 years ago you could still see McNamara taking long wolks in DC.

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:26 PM

I wish I'd known it was going to be on--the next scheduled showing is July 30, at 4:30pm EDT--

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:05 PM

A sorry now is to late. When your own people protest in the numbers that they did back then, SOMEONE SHOULD'VE LISTENED and those that didn't knew. They should still be tried either here or in a world court for crimes against humanity. I for one won't give forgiveness without payment. That's also true for todays actions in the Mid East.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:49 PM

I saw the documentary. Id recommend it -

not sure if its in the film but years after the Cuban missile crisis Mcnamara met Castro and asked him what he would have done if he had the Soviet missiles, and if they had been operational whether he would have considered using them. He was stunned to hear Castro respond that in fact they did have the missiles, they were operational and indeed he wanted the Soviets to use them, which they refused.

Also there were Soviet submarines heading toward Cuba at the time of the blockade. Theses subs were armed with nuclear weapons and each captain had the authority to use nukes if necessary.
ONe of the subs had lost radio contact with the Soviet Union. It happened to be the sub that the US navy came into contact with and fired some depth charges in to its vicinity (a signal to surface).
(these facts didnt come out until much later, in the 1990s, so when Macnamara heard about them he realized just how close to nuclear war the world came.

- when Macnamara talked to Vietnamese generals many years after the war- one of the former Vietnamese generals asked how do you reconcile a country that fights for democracy - and talks about 'bombing (vietnam) to the Stone age'.

a

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:07 PM

I was only 10 when Kennedy was murdered, so my knowledge and memory of most of this is ltd. by youth. Thank you all for your take on things then and now. I appreciate it.

As to forgiveness, I would ask that you listen to a National Public Radio interview which aired last week:

Author and museum director James Cameron died last Sunday at the age of 92. In 1930, an organized mob of more than 10,000 white men and women dragged Cameron and two other black teenage men from a jail cell in Marion, Ind. The mob mercilessly beat the three young men and lynched two -- Cameron was spared. He recounted this experience in his 1984 memoir A Time of Terror and later founded the Black Holocaust Museum in Milwaukee, which he modeled after the Jewish Holocaust museum in Israel. This interview originally aired on March 8, 1994.

You may listen HERE. I was amazed at his ability to forgive after all he went through. Truly some lessons to be learned from such a gracious Spirit.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:17 AM

Hi Kat
I'm not that nice & not nearly that forgiving. When the line's been crossed for personnal, political or financial gain at the cost of innocent lives, forgiveness is not in my make up UNLESS there has been a reversal of chacter & some ernest attempt at atonement. "I'm sorry", just doesn't cut it. I'd rather see him made an example of for future warlords. Impalement on a pike & left for the crows, no resting place & his named never mentioned or printed, all trace of him buried & his ashes scattered over a dung heap. If this were the treatment of yesteryear we wouldn't have a sorry Bush in office today.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:33 AM

I know, Barry. There are a lot of things which could have been done differently to prevent another shurb in office,imo. I LOVE the way you never mince words and I always respect what you have to say. I saw an old man who had regrets. Yes, I think he should have come out with it and said "I'm sorry," but I am not sure that would have mattered a lot. I wish he and others, including some spineless Congresspeople would come out and say THIS IS WRONG - GET US OUT NOW! as he seems to have done, privately. The Feingold-Kerry bill attempts that, but I sure hope Kerry doesn't cite as a reason to run, 'cause I am sure we'd lsoe the White House, again, if he runs.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Fog of War documentary -Robt McNamara
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:23 PM

I too saw it in a theater when it was new. Memory has faded somewhat.

I remember getting the impression, here is a guy who is (sort of) TRYING to apologize, or atone for his sins, but not quite knowing how.

I have known several people like that.

Some people can't apologize because they are too vain, or too defensive. Instead of saying, "I screwed up and I'm sorry," they keep trying to explain and justify what they did.

I don't think that's McNamara's problem. His problem, the thing that makes it hard for us to relate to him, and makes it hard to accept his apology, is that he's too intellectual. He thinks it's his job to explain things. He thinks an explanation is all we want from him, and the best thing he can give us, so he keeps explaining. (At least, he's explaining what he did wrong.) We get a lot from the head, very little from the heart.

Like a lot of intellectuals, he thinks he has to be purely logical and unemotional. And in a way, he's right.

As satisfying as it might be to see a real tear-jerking mea culpa speech, in the long run, it wouldn't help. What we need is not to know that McNamara has learned from his mistakes, but that the current administration—and all future ones—have learned from McNamara's mistakes. That's the only thing that will save us from falling into the same hole again. (But it looks like we have fallen into the same hole again, more or less.)

Overall, I think McNamara, by making the film, was doing the best thing he could do to see that his mistakes won't be repeated. I think he was addressing his remarks not so much to the public, as to current and future policy-makers and strategists like himself. And I don't think those people would be able to relate to a tear-jerking mea culpa speech. More's the pity.