Recordings of Gypsies

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 02:27 PM

Interesting seeing this old thread revived as Nick Dow did an excellent evening for us at Maidenhaed a few weeks back despite having all sorts of Car Problems on the way !

Also interesting that that Jim Carrol at least had the decency to have his name on HIS 'GUEST' posts , unlike some !

And I would recommend Nick foR a booking Anywhere .

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 01:40 PM

love one of your CDs,
Me not Mudcat that time.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 01:39 PM

Jim,
I received your PMs. The book will ship this week. I would one of your CDs. I will try to PM my address. I too am having Mudcat problems.
M

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:33 AM

Sinsull
Am having trouble PMing at present - they're coming in but not going out (just tried to start new thread - same result - probably something I said)
The answer to your question is Mullagh Road (no number), Miltown Malbay, Co Clare
Many thanks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: blinddrunkal
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 10:01 AM

a few weeks ago the Independent Newspaper published an article on "Chavs" and "Chavie culture" refering to lawless young men (wearing hoods no doubt) never mentioning the origins of the word - if anyone used and asian or african term for children to describe yob culture I think there might have been a complaint of racism. I did write a letter of complaint but it was never published or answered.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 05:52 AM

Thanks for that Jim! I would probably have rambled on for pages to say all that. My wife and inlaws are Romanies from Sligo, settled in East Lancs, and my best friends are the Lee's from Blackpool.
They would all agree with every word.
Nick

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:48 AM

"I recently saw a PBS series "
We are still being regaled here (in Ireland) with the appallingly racist "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" which is being openly used as an opportunity to present some of the worst aspects of Traveller culture.
Wonder what would happen if "Gypsy" was replaced by "black" or "Pakistani" or "Irish"!!!
If nobody has taken you up on your kind offer, I would be interested Sinsull
Worth repeating an article published in The Times at the time of the Dale Farm evicition (below)
Jim Carroll


1,000 years of prejudice, hatred and distrust
There are few tales that begin in the Indian sub-continent and Irish marshlands during the first millennium after the birth of Christ and reach Basildon in Essex 1,000 years later.
In between there are travels through eastern Europe, Irish famines and Nazi killing camps. Then there are the prejudices, the disputes and the clashing of communities. The history of the 300,000-strong travelling communities, now encamped on 8,000-plus pitches in England, is complex.
First, there are the groupings: the Roma, who are believed to have emerged from Asia 1,000 years ago and to have split into the Romany of western Europe, the Domari of the Middle East and Eastern Europe and the Lomavren of Central Europe.
The Irish Travellers refer to themselves as Pavees and share a common language, Shelta. A study earlier this year provided DNA evidence that it is a distinct ethnic minority, which separated from the settled Irish community between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago. Previously, it was believed that they were landowners who took to the road during the Great Famine. In 2000, they were ruled to be a distinct ethnic group, while Gypsies gained this status in 1976.
Then there are the New Age travellers whose crusty roots lie in the hippy culture of the mid-20th century. One can also throw in a sprinkling of Scottish Travellers, with their own musical and linguistic traditions dating back to the 12th century, and the Travelling Showpeople who have entertained generations with their fairgrounds and circuses.
Gypsies were one of the ethnic groups targeted by the Nazis. At least 250,000 were killed in the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 11:34 AM

Wow - Mudcat at its best and worst.
I am surprised that we haven't heard from Larry Otway (InOBu) He may stop by later.

Meantime, thank you all for your contributions. I recently saw a PBS series - Doc Martin, mayb, or All Creatures Great and Small. A pair of Travellers parked their wagon legally but were abused and attacked by a local farmer. As in good TV series fashion, they later saved his life and left. I just did not understand the animosity.

Meantime, I am trying to reduce the number of books in my home. I have a copy of Django's Gypsies, the Mystique of Django Reinhardt and his People.
Any takers?
SINS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: blinddrunkal
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 10:10 AM

just like to say that after reading the political ping-pong the things I treasure are Nick's recordings of Mic Darling, A Poor Man's Gift,Traditional Songs From Dorset, Master McGrath, and the Fleetwood one (can't remember the title) stick to the music!

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:23 AM

Sorry Nick,
I had no intention of giving offence.
During the time I was recording Travellers in London many of them became close friends. I saw the rat-infested sites they were forced to live on, and I saw them driven out of those sites by local bigotry. I witnessed evictions close up, I was with them when they were barred out of the pubs and I took part of their campaign to get decent sites and conditions.
As bad as it was in the UK, it has reached 'ethnic cleansing' proportions here in Ireland, something we see daily, particularly here in County Clare where I live. 18 months ago in this town, a family who had been made homeless by a caravan fire and who had been temporarily housed to help them get through the winter, were driven out by a local mob.
When I hear Travellers being slagged off with the usual old garbage I get pissed of - it may seem academic to you, but it doesn't feel like it to me.
I could pass by on the other side and say nothing, but my'victimhood by proxy' won't let me so I choose to comment. However, as this thread is about giving away tapes I'll take my bleeding heart elsewhere.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:38 PM

Don't quit, Nick. I have been as guilty as Jim and unknown Guest of arguing for arguings sake. It's not Folk - well, yes I guess it is, It's human nature. Come back and fight from the inside - You know it is the best place:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: nutty
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM

Well said, Nick

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:38 PM

And you wonder why I get jarred off with academics! All I wanted was to give away some recordings! Will you two shut the **** up! Neither of you know what you are going on about! I've lived the life, and I'm married to a Romany Gypsy, been there, done it and bought the bloody T.Shirt. I know about evictions first hand, I know about predjudice first hand. It's not a bloody high brow argument bringing in Thatcher and Tebbit. It's all about survival against the odds, and it always has been. When my Grandchildren were spat at I was there with my fists not a camera, or waving a bit of paper saying 'excuse me you can't do that' Take your fine words and shove them! I've watched rooms full of people like you arguing round in circles about absolutely nothing after Johnny Delaney was kicked to death by anti Gypsy racists in the Liverpool area. I am not a Gypsy and never will be, but my children are part Romany (so hang a title on that why don't you?)and I don't need some idiot talking about my family and telling me 'Life is tough!'
I've just remembered why I quit the Folk Scene! Not enough people like Dick Miles, Liz the Squeak,Rman,and Helen, and too many others like you two.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Thanks for that, I know where you're coming from now.
I can assume that you disapprove of preserving communities only if the are non-conformist Travellers - I take back my apology.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:36 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "straight out of Margaret Thatcher's dictionary of thoughts for the day, or even Norman Tebbitt's instruction for cyclists."

At least Maggie and Norm, for all their faults, had a tentative grip on reality and didn't scuttle off to "the colonies" - abandoning their own culture - for the romance of living comfortably but vicariously through someone else's. "I'm not opressed myself, m'lud, but I know someone who is." The word ersatz could have been coined for this bourgois affectation.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:11 AM

You can, as you have done, describe the Travellers way of life as choice if you reduce it to simply being born somewhere - as long as you ignore all the cultural baggage that comes with it. Travellers respond to change far better than any other group I know of.
I couldn't help but notice that you didn't respond to my question regarding groups other than Travellers being assisted to survive.
Nor did you address the practicalities of letting the way of life die out.
I've never heard of the recognition of people's difficulties and the desire to help as 'victimhood by proxy' - that could have come straight out of Margaret Thatcher's dictionary of thoughts for the day, or even Norman Tebbitt's instruction for cyclists.
In my experience, the phrase 'life is tough is usually the mantra of those for whom it definitely isn't.
I'm glad that your 'Brave New World' of dog-eat-dog is not mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

Jim Carroll writes: "The Travellers lifestyle is not a matter of choice, it is a circumstance of birth"

Of course it is a choice. Yes, of course, everyone is born somewhere but it doesn't mean they have to stay there - or, indeed, can stay there. We're back to pickling again. I make no apology for calling you a romantic. Nobody is talking about "forcibly ending Travelling life" - just suggesting that times change, circumstances alter and, like everyone else, those born into travelling communities need to take account of that. In needing to respond to change they are absolutely equal with the rest of us - but I admire your huffing and puffing in a splendid display of victimhood-by-proxy.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

The Travellers lifestyle is not a matter of choice, it is a circumstance of birth – that is the world into which they were born and in which they function best. There is no practical reason why it should change.
It is economically more efficient to provide stopping places for twenty families and maintain the existence they have been born into than to house them into a life that is totally alien to them. That is the way to integrate them into modern society.
Socially, ending their lifestyle and forcibly housing them will (and does) create so many problems in terms of mental and physical health and ones of social behaviour and adaptability as to be an enormous drain on public resources.
Culturally, it would put paid to the close-knit family structure that exists among Travellers. Traveller families in general tend to be closer and more self-supportive units than their settled equivalent.
Ethically, this form of social engineering is both immoral and unacceptable in the civilized society to which I believe we still belong.
The ludicrous thing about all this is that it is totally unnecessary. Travellers, given the basic conditions of human existence, are perfectly capable of functioning on the road. I have seen families survive and prosper on well planned sites which provide the basic necessities of life (ie – running water, sanitation, and surroundings that can be kept clean and comfortable). Occupants I have met on such sites have all, without exception, become integrated members of the surrounding communities.
The only reason for forcibly ending Travelling life is to satisfy the prejudices of those who either disapprove or fail to understand people whose lifestyle is different from their own. If these prejudices were to be aimed towards other groups such as Moslems, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, West Indians, etc. they would be unacceptable, and even illegal. It seems that when applied to Travellers they are not only acceptable, but widespread.
As a taxpayer, I may never use the National Health Service, the Public Library, public transport, swimming baths, the opera, the theatre etc. I have no children so personally I have no use for schools. I have never been unemployed so I have never received unemployment benefit. Having said this, not only am I perfectly happy that my taxes are spent on maintaining these things, but would be extremely unhappy if they weren't. I would extend this to the support of minorities such as Travellers, asylum seekers, the disabled etc. because this is what makes for a civilied society.
I wonder how you feel about the huge sums that were poured into the ex mining communities so that the people living in them could rebuild rather than abandon their roots. Was this money spent maintaining a romantic myth?
I would be grateful if you didn't brand me as a romantic. My interest in Travellers musical and oral traditions has nothing whatever to do with how I feel we should view to them as human beings; it was merely how I came in contact with them in the first place.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:02 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "What is your solution"

I don't pretend to have one. It seems to me that travellers who can fund their activities through adapting to new condtitions should be allowed to get on with it. Those who can't must change their lifestyle - which will be just as unwelcome for them as for the many of us who've needed, at one time or another, to change careers or move to the other end of the country for work. What isn't acceptable, to me, is the idea of subsidising a group of people in perpetuity simply because they have a desire to live in a certain way. The romantic notion that they are all valuable living repositories of unique songs, language and beliefs is untenable in this day and age. If a few folks are, then I'm sure the dessemination and preservation of those particular cultural assets - in living breathing form - would be worth subsidising but this must be with the consent of the people expected to pay for it.

Is there any evidence that two generations on those who settle are any worse off than similar 'working class' people? I accept that the first generation may have a hard time with the transition - but so did my great grandparents in moving from farm labouring to the mills. Life is tough.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM

Guest,
Maybe I did overstate - if so, I apologise. Put it down to the effect of going over hackneyed ground again and again and again........ In the meantime Travellers conditions continue to deteriorate while society passes by on the other side.
At least MacColl and the Critics Group did their bit in drawing attention to their situation.
What is your solution - or will you use my intemperance to not proffer one?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

Thanks for that Dick, and long time no see. Meanwhile the recordings are ready to be copied for anyone who wants them. The actual copying is being done by 'the chantey cabin' So would you please contact them at [e-mail]   There are lots of CD's so if you could be specific Jan will let you know which recordings are which. (and that's more than I can!) Nic Caffrey has still got some Gypsy recordings but I'll get them back tomorrow (Sunday 2nd July) and pass them on. Who was Rod Stradling again? Can't remember!

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

Well. Shiver me timbers.Nic I dont see why anybody should need to have qualifications to collect songs.As regards Stradlings comments re Bill House and his age and the insinuation that he was past it,that is only his subjective opinion and may not be other peoples. I happen to think even IF it is the case it is irrelevant,much can be learned about repertoire style etc, I recaently heard a collection of Fred Kilroy playing the Anglo,The condition of the recordings were not very good and a bit out of tune,but it was still worthwhile to me to get an idea of style and repertoire,likewise a recording of Scan Tester, Icould still appreciate his wonderful playing even though his concertina was slightly out of tune. I am sure most sensible collectors would think you made the right decision.Lastly the slur on your good name about attempting to make money I find amazing,if we were all millionaires we could give recordings away free,but even Cecil Sharp had to cover the cost of his recording etc which is in fact all most of us do, in the folk world myself included, it is a labour of love. and if its any consolation there is no such thing as bad publicity                ,it is far worse to be ignored,as my c d Boxing Clever    was by a certain national folk magazine. Well done Nic and ignore Rod Stradling.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:58 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "Perhaps you might offer a (final!) solution."

What an intemperate and unwarranted remark. Oh, sorry, I realize that you do not permit differences of opinion on any subject. 'Tis the old Stalinist way so beloved of Critics' Group graduates. How quaint.... How irrelevant...

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:26 AM

Ye gods, I did it AGAIN - hit the wrong button and posted an empty message. I have personal experience of Mr Stradling. I was asked to review for his online mag a CD he himself had a hand in issuing, and to his profound puzzlement made some minor criticisms of it! Rather than try to explain to him why even his handiwork could be commented on critically, I eventually just withdrew the review. He can dish it out, but it's a one way street.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,EWan
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:20 AM

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 04:46 AM

All civilised societies recognise and cater for differing cultures - it is the uncivilised one that enforce conformity.
Catering adequately for a substantial mobile population can be done at a fraction of the cost as that for a settled one. Go on to any well organised Travellers site and you will see that is obvious.
Using your logic, when the mining industry collapsed some years ago, the logical action would have been to demolish the former mining villages and move all the occupants into the cities and towns where they were likely to find work. I wonder what the reaction would have been to describing life in somewhere like Orgreave or Birtley as a 'pickled culture' and forcably moving out the residents!
Within living memory - certainly here in Ireland, Travellers were an essential part of rural life. When the trades they followed were made obsolete they adapted (far better than other social groups that have undergone similar changes). What they have not been able to cope with is the vicious prejudice that has sprung up towards them, both from officials and from the settled population in general.
When Ewan MacColl and Charles Parker were making the radio ballad 'The Travelling People' they recorded a Birmingham councillor and justice of the peace named Harry Watton. Regarding Travellers, who, he stressed, were nor 'real' gypsies, he said, "You can help the broad mass of these people, but those who will not be helped should be exterminated'.
Symbolically, his quote came almost at the end of the programme.
Here in Ireland Travellers are not provided with anywhere near enough sites, let alone running water and sanitation, so they are forced to camp illegally. If they do this their homes are impounded and in many cases they are imprisoned. If they move into houses they are driven out by the residents - so they end up in ghettos in the middle of nowhere. They haven't yet been made to wear yellow stars or carry passes but....
Many of them (asylum seekers?) move to the UK where conditions are marginally better. Those who stay live in Third World conditions.
Perhaps you might offer a (final!) solution.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

Jim Carroll wrote "do wish to keep travelling but are forced into houses by prejudice"

... but I dare say a lot of handloom weavers preferred spinning by the hearth of their rural cottages to life in the mechanised cotton mills - but times moved on and economics, not prejudice, influenced choices and lifestyles. Pickling a culture is never going to be an option; nor is doing what we want simply because we want to. Real life, and the burden placed on others who are providing involuntary subsidy, impinges.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

"Jim Carroll wrote: "unless something is not done very quickly there will not be a Traveller on the road in ten years time."

Does that matter or is it that too just a romantic affectation?"

Yes it does matter if it their wish to remain on the road. The greater majority of Travellers I have worked with do wish to keep travelling but are forced into houses by prejudice (a fair amount of which has appeared on this thread). ignorance (see above) and the desire to get their children educated.
I have seen Travellers in houses who were unbelievably miserable, but saw themselves with no alternative.
It is not for us to tell them how they should live; it has to be their own decision, made without external pressure from peopele who simply don't understand their way of life .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:14 PM

Fred McCormick - I support your decision to post Rod Stradling's review (of course, his permission should have been solicited, as you acknowledge). It clarifies the issue, and allows the rest of us to reach our own conclusions about an unfortunate business.

Kudos to Nick for his generosity with his tapes and reflections on his life.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM

Nick,

you are well respected for what you do, that is all you have to remember.

Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:42 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "unless something is not done very quickly there will not be a Traveller on the road in ten years time."

Does that matter or is it that too just a romantic affectation?

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM

Just to put 'Guest' in the picture, I do have experience of Travellers; some thirty five years of recording them, mainly Irish, in the Greater London area. Our collection of several hundred tapes is housed at the British Library in London with full public access, and to date we have released a cassette and a double CD of songs and stories, along with contributing tracks to Topic's 'Voice of The People' series.
If I have learned anything in the time I have been working with Travellers, it is that separating them into 'real Gypsies' and 'others' is divisive and has done much to make sure that Travellers continue to live in the appalling conditions that that do (without decent stopping places, running water, sanitation and access to education).
Describing Travellers as Romanies or real Gypsies is nowadays largely a romantic conceit. Intermarriage, urbanisation and settlement has largely put paid to such distinctions. The traditions have all but disappeared along with the language, the old way of life, the horse-drawn caravans and the traditional Travellers trades such as tinsmithing and horse-dealing.
I do think it important for Travellers not to loose touch with their roots and traditions, and for those outside the community to know and understand their way of life; that is one of the reasons why we embarked on recording a lifestyle we believed (rightly) was rapidly disappearing back in the early seventies.
However, it is also important to recognise that the old ways have largely disappeared and unless something is not done very quickly there will not be a Traveller on the road in ten years time. If this is not to be the case it will take the combined efforts of all Travellers, not just the 'real' Gypsies to prevent this from becoming a reality
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

I have started something haven't I. Well I think the best thing is to put the record straight. This is the truth then.
Stradlings review is not as bad as I remembered it. However the thing I find unforgivable even after twenty years is the personal attack on my integrity. The idea that I was exploiting my friendship with Bill house and his family is not only incorrect but also offensive, and unnecessary. Lets face it, Stradling behaved like a gobshite, and I hope somebody told him to his face. (I never ran into the man, which is probably lucky for him)
The main point is, that Stradling was only a small part of my decision to retire. He caught me at an all time low. At that time I was suffering from atrocious health and ended up in Hospital for several months. The result was that I lost my house, and just escaped bankruptcy. My union Equity gave me a hardship payment that paid the deposit so we could rent a small two up two down house in East Lancashire. My parents were still alive and they bought me a caravan God Bless them. Mally and I lived half in and half out of the house. I earned a living by sign writing and painting trinkets (Roses and Castles etc) and selling them at Horse fairs and steam Rallies. We were camping around the country,(we buried or disposed of all our rubbish by the way) and fell in with a travelling family called Mic and Susie Darling and their kids. I recorded Mics songs and the tapes sold in hundreds. Incidentally I was not bothered weather we were travellers, Tinkers,mumpers or anything else. We were just surviving. I played songs with Mic in pubs and in the street. We can be seen on a film of Stowe Horse fair singing the Romany Rye together, and later on travelled to Appleby and Lee Gap fairs.
At Lee Gap I helped the late Gypsy Strongman Johnny Eagle with his act, wrapping him in chains to help with his escape act, and trying (and failing) to bend the iron bar.
In 1995 I bought my first Wagon for £1900 and tried to paint it up. I sold it at a profit and hand built another. I sold that and eventually moved to a static Caravan on a site in Thornton Lancashire. After five or six years we were forced off the site by racists who attacked my wife for being a 'Gyppo' spat at my Grandchildren and set dogs on us when we were working outside. I managed to buy a detached bungalow, and started my business in earnest, making a living entirely from wagons. I was good at it and at I now employ three people, and I am far from destitute.
I never was and never will be a scholar. I understand Gypsies and Wagons, Horses and Dogs. I can play and sing most music fairly well. On the Folk scene when I was younger I felt intimidated by the teachers and social workers(and Stradlings) I met, which made me aggressive and a bit pushy, and I think I may have upset more than a few people.
Stradling hit a nerve, but it's time to let it go. So that's why I offered my recordings to anybody who wants them for free. I don't have anything to prove any more. I think I've said more than enough about myself so I'll finish by saying thanks again for all the supportive comments, and if you want to contact me I'm at Radio Lancashire every Sunday night.
Kushti Bok
Nick

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,helen
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:53 PM

Well said, Nutty. I thought Mr Stradling's letter was uncalled for as well. I also wondered how he could assume that Mr House felt he had given a 'private' performance when he had already stated that he was 'an outsider' to the event. For all we know, Mr house could have been absolutely delighted that his music might reach a wider audience.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: nutty
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

Fred... I have to take issue with you over the 'let sleeping dogs lie' attitude that you expect Nick and others to take.

Yes, 20 years is a long time but, after reading Mr Stradling's vicious attack on Nick as a collector, then I know why he is still feeling hurt.
20 years ago his work may have seemed to have little importance ..... electric folk was all the go and source singers, particularly those who had lost their ability to perform, were obviously not worth bothering with.

Sadly. Mr Stradling was so tied up in trashing the tape, that he actually forgot to review it in its entirity.
I would have expected the review to contain rather more comment on the track list than was managed...... was the content folk?, popular song?, etc.
Sadder still is the fact that there are still reviewers out there who believe they have a right to commit this sort of insult (There was a recent example of such a review in my local folk magazine).

These are not matters of State. There should be no 'publish and be damned' attitude particularly when the recipient of your remarks has no form of redress.
I still believe the old adage applies. If you can't think of anything nice to say - don't say anything and I would have thought far more of Mr Stradling if , rather than berate you for letting the world know what he had written, he had actually, belatedly, published an apology.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM

Jim obviously you have nothing to do with the "Travelling Community" as you put it. Leave it to guys who know like S.B.P

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:24 AM

I didn't take Nick's post as an invitation to drag open an old argument. I believe he was just relating a common experience - running into some prejudice on the part of an Academe Folkie against an 'amatuer'. I read Stardling's letter and it seemed to me to be very much the same kind of thing as I see here in the States. What was pointless seemed to me to be the letter itself. Why attack a cassette that might have sold a few hundred copies? Silly really.

I'll not comment on it further. Let's let the thread revert to a discussion of Rom music if it can.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Rman
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 06:44 AM

Surely the point of stirring up a twenty year old argument is that hopefully, the next generation of AR folk police might go a little easier on our rapidly dwindling family of folkies.

Rather than belittling their efforts - without investigating the reasons why things were done in a perhaps; *different* manner - they might have the respect not to publicly denigrate the artists efforts?


Get a grip.

Music is for all people to play and sing, not to be kept on a sad mad dusty man's shelf.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:17 AM

I've received an email from Rod Stradling complaining that I posted his Folk Roots review on this thread without his permission. He is quite right and I am very sorry and I should have acted with less haste. Posting it constituted a violation of intellectual property rights, something I have had cause to complain of in the past when my own work has been violated.

I also agree with him that there is no point in stirring up a twenty year old argument.

Even so, I feel that my original contention still stands; namely that Nick Dow's allegations are a travesty of what Rod actually wrote, also that people who sided with him should not have done so without reading the review.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:06 AM

The 'what constitutes a real Gypsy' discussion opens up an extremely unpleasantly racist can of worms and has done a great deal of damage to the Travellers situation today. Intermarriage and settlement have made the gypsy - tinker argument a largely irrelevent one, but it still constanly raises its ugly head and has gone a long way to dividing the Travelling community and preventing them from obtaining their rights to sites, education and other facilities, certainly in the UK.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:00 AM

*Clarification:~*

That's modern day travellers who provide the mess and cause trouble....

One of the leaders of the Gypsy Council was a good friend of ours (until her death a couple of years ago) and even SHE wouldn't have anything to do with those travellers.

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:56 AM

I think the term 'Travelling people' rather than 'travellers' was used by Nick in his first posting. True Romanies, Gypsies, whatever you call them, have for many years (if not centuries) been known as 'travelling people' or 'travelling nation'. 'Travellers' ~ meaning 'new age hippies' is a fairly modern term and is usually derogatory, thus making the distinction necessary.

I seem to remember that Mally is either from, or is closely related to a Romany/Travelling family from Dorset (hence Nick's collecting of songs from the county). I grew up near their camp and we never had any trouble from them. They were quiet, courteous and tidy, unlike the travellers who descend on a large car park near my present home and turn it into a tip within hours of their arrival.

Mind you.. some of the residents can do that quite happily and not complain until they have to pay more council tax for clean-ups.

Hope that shines some light.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Rman
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:48 AM

* [snip] I hope I don't often embarrass any of my friends in this fashion.* [snip]

You certainly embarassed one extremely talented musician completely off the folk scene Mr Stradling - a job well done i hear you say?

Come on back Nick.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:34 PM

Pete it wasn't you to whom I was refering but the original poster in this thread who refers to his wife Mally by both terms. I mistook your explanation for an explanation of why HE was using both terms to apply to one person as in to say "That's the way it's done in the UK". I can see now that you meant the general public makes no distinction which is often the same here in the States.

At least here, Non-ethnic folks who live a "transient" lifestyle are not looked down upon too harshly. We do call the type of person who used to follow the Grateful Dead "Bus Gypsies" if they live in a van or bus and "Bus Gypsies" can also mean people living in their cars in cities but nobody for a moment believes they are either Freeborn Irish or Rom. it's just a term.

On the East Coast, where I was raised, people do still call Freeborns "Tinkers" but "Tinker" can also mean someone making a marginal living performing services or selling goods from a wagon, car, bus, van, trunk etc. It was not uncommon in the Irish part of the Catskills to see non-traveller Irish (Country Irish) spending the summer selling music or Irish Cotton/wool goods out of a cabinet or wagon. They'd ply their trade to the folks up from NYC for vacation in little resort towns such as East Durham.

Now when I say resort, I don't mean fancy high living - just family cabins, a communal dining hall and nightyl entertainment in the dining hall. My grandmother and her siblings went East Durham in the 1920s as single girls with their brothers and cousins and I went with my friends in the 1980s. Not much had changed. I believe I still have a wonderful lavender and green wool shawl I bought from a Trunk salesmen there. Come end of summer, those folks either returned to stores they owned or mail order businesses. So you can see its not the same.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:15 PM

"but it never ocurred to me that someone from within the culture would use the the term Gypsy or Rom to describe an Irish traveller" - i never did.

To be honest, traditionally no-one would. The travellers are seen as trouble. Both the Irish and the Rom would have had different "Atchin Tans" - stopping places. Due to different legislation, the Highways act 1964, the caravan act etc both were forced out of their nomadic life, into either council housing or into legal camps, toghether and forced to live side by side.

Most of the illegal camps you hear about in England are Irish travellers who then in the media are described as Gypsies. The gypsies do occassionally illegaly camp on their way to fairs: Stow, Appleby but it is only in passing. Not fair in a society where every other race/ethinicity has better human rights then them!!

The public here in England can't tell the difference between a Traveller, a gypsy, a mumper (The phrase is hedge mumper - a tramp or vagrant) or a new age hippie. They are all tared with the same brush regardless of their true ethnicity.

I hope that helps with a bit of history and background. Education on the subject help to break down some of the prejudices viewed/aired by non nomadic people.

Right i have had me say.
Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 01:13 PM

Thanks for the explanation Pete - One of my degrees in is Anthropology and I did some writing about the Freeborn here in the States but it never ocurred to me that someone from within the culture would use the the term Gypsy or Rom to describe an Irish traveller - in fact I'd not seen it before. The fact that "Country Irish" in the states (City folk - townspeople) use the terms interchangeably is a very sore point with the Freeborn here.

In and around NYC, we had plenty of contact with people of Rom descent who had settled somewhat such as my dad's friend who made winter camp and in his retirment, settled his whole famly in the winter camp locale. They were more than sore about being compared to the Freeborn - not something I'd recommend doing. Gadjo is not a word used that much over here but is used more in Canada. No need to explain the difference to me.

So I'm still confused - is Mally Freeborn Irish or is she Rom? Surely she isn't both is she?

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:44 PM

Dave's Wife
The term Traveller and Gypsy are used as one by non-travellers here in England, along with pike. As Nick will tell you, Travellers are usually thought of as Irish and Gypsies are the real deal , i.e Romany Gypsies.

There are terms such as mumper, which is a term going out of usage, for people who have drifted into a nomadic life.

Trust me if you have it in your blood or you have close contact as Nick does then there are alot more names of different groups - both Rom and Gadjo and ends up very confusing to try and explain!!

Kushti Bok.
Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 11:39 AM

Well if that ain't a bit of condescending trash. Its seems his issue is with the qaulity of the singer and his repertoire so why on earth did he go after Nick & Mally the way he did? Pointless. Of course, I'm from Academia myself so perhaps I've just had my fill of colleagues such as that. they seem to live to sit in the back of the room at paper presnetations and wait for the right moment to go for the jugular during Q&A and comments with a "yes but...." type of comment. Glad I left the hallowed halls...

OK - one thing I am right confused about is the way Nick using the terms "Traveller" and "Gypsy" as if they were the same thing. So which is it or is it both? Is his wife both Freeborn Irish AND Rom or is she one or the other.

I know here in the USA most people assume the Freeborn are Rom but I assumed in the UK the distinction was much more distinct.

That said, my father had a number of Rom friends he made when he was a NYS Trooper (rural policeman) and it made for an interesting childhood. His one friend built a permament winter camp near where we lived about an hour outside of NYC and raised/trained wild circus animals. He offered us an ocelot kitten as a pet and my Mum put her foot down to that! Still, we enjoyed going out to the winter camp often.

As far as I know, there are no freeborn folk in our family but my father's profession brought him into close contact with some of the Northeastern US clans. I remember one young tough from such a family making threats to him after dad arrested him on a very serious charge but nothing ever came of it. Scared my Mum witless for a year or two because he had a big mouth and large family but again, it was just talk. My father was mostly a soft touch for travellers of any kind, Rom or freeborn or was known to mediate disputes rather than make arrests so most folk treasured him. It might be on account of his family's recent emmigration and perhaps he was just better acquainted with the culture.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 11:19 AM

Nick,

Rod Stradling has now passed on to me a copy of his review (not an open letter) for Folk Roots. After much though and soul searching, I decided the only practical repsonse is to post it on here. That way, all interested parties can make their own minds up.

It's not the kindest review I've ever read and, never having heard the cassette, I cannot judge the validity or otherwise of what he says. Equally, I cannot see anything in it to justify your various comments.

Fred McCormick.

Folk Roots, No.34, April 1986 : Reviews

BILL HOUSE, NORMAN GREY, FRED CHUBB

Gin And Ale And Whiskey OHC 104 (Cassette)

I suppose there must be quite a number of you out there who have actually heard an example of that dying breed, the Traditional Singer, in his/her natural environment, the Local. Some of you may even be in the lucky position of having such people in your own local and as neighbours in your own town or village (many more may be in this position without knowing it - but that's another story). You may very well have even taken a tape recorder along with you now and again to catch a bit of the action for a keepsake, or to learn the tune, or whatever. In fact, I know of lots of people who have such recordings kicking about their cassette racks and who will play them every now and again with a smile and a misty eye, or share the performance with a mate or two, or even send a copy to the singer or musician as a present. It is very rare indeed for them ever to go to the trouble of having photos screened, printing up a set of inserts, making multiple tape copies, sending cassettes off to mags like Folk Roots for review, and generally putting them on the market for public sale.

Such cassettes are usually only published by 'professional' collectors and almost always for some additional motive, i.e. to illustrate a particular style of performance or repertoire, to give an overview of the traditional music of a particular geographical area or, more rarely, to act as a showcase for the music of an individual or family. Such motives are often considered ample justification for the inclusion of performances of little intrinsic merit. The publication of a cassette which does not fulfil the requirements of the above criteria is, therefore, an unusual event and one which provokes some scrutiny of its worth and of the intentions of its publishers. This is, I feel, such a case and I am bound to ask what on earth prompted Nick and Mally Dow to want to expose Messrs. House, Grey and Chubb to the general public in this way.

The insert notes tell us that Fred Chubb played about two hours' worth of melodeon, mostly modern song tunes rendered unusable by background noise and we are left with one "more rare piece", an indifferent tune played - let's not quibble - badly. Of Norman Grey we are told only that he is middle-aged and unemployed. He sings only one song, the ubiquitous Cock-A-Doodie-Doo, in so charmless and forthright a way as to make it utterly offensive - nothing but dirty doggerel. I cannot see that the production is in any way enhanced by the inclusion of these two tracks, other than to give better 'value for money', a supremely inappropriate phrase in this case!

The rest of the cassette is given over to the singing of Bill House. Had this recording been made twenty years ago the results could, I am sure, have stood comparison with the best of Southern English country singers. Today, in his eighty-fifth year, I don't think it fair that I - or any outsider - should be asked to comment on what he must have felt to be a 'private' performance before friends and neighbours. What may be seen as an excellent recording of several evenings' worth of musical communication between Bill House and his young admirers is transmogrified, out of its social context, into something very different; it becomes a social gaffe. The relationship between collector and source performer ought, I think, to be one of respect and friendship. I hope I don't often embarrass any of my friends in this fashion.

Rod Stradling

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:51 AM

Thank you all so much for your support. The fact is, I can not play Folk guitar like I used to do. My hands and wrists are a bit painful, and years of woodworking and carving have taken their toll. I'm OK for the blues gigs (i.e. with a plectrum playing lead guitar-lots of fun!) but all the old guitar tunings and Jigs and Reels demand a lot from my right hand and the fingers are a bit bent now. However I can still give a good accompaniment in ordinary tuning and my wife says my voice is a lot deeper and mellow. (I'd like to think that was true!) I must admit I am very tempted to do a couple of gigs again. No false modesty I am genuinely surprised that people remember me, and are still interested. Nic Caffrey will have all my recordings this coming Sunday and has agreed to make copies. My Blues Show is available on line at www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire I'm on air between 8-05pm to 9pm every Sunday, and you can ring me on the station number 01254-583583 if you want to contact me. By the way I don't own a copy of'A Poor Mans Gift', I've got a few of Mark Upon the Earth' left.
Thank you all so much.
best wishes
Nick