BS: Apologies over slave trade?

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

pdq...
Your take on the moorish invasion of Spain reads like some racist fantasy..
The clash between the Moors and Christian Spain was not a racial struggle .
Indeed ,some of the most ferocious persecutions involved religion and not race.
Take for example the extermination of the Cathars of Languedoc by the church at the beginning of the 13th century or the massacres of Jews at the time of the first crusade at the end of the 11th century.
Medieval Europe saw itself in religious terms in which Muslims , Jews and pagans were excluded on religious and not racial grounds.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:05 PM

Apologies are meaningless unless they actually come from the people involved in carrying out the Act.
Guilt is not inherited. It makes apologies for the 18th century slave trade, or pardons for soldiers shot for cowerdice in 1914-18 pointless gestures (Bunnahabhain)

I tend to disagree. People argue about these things and ask for apologies quite often with a mind set on today and on more than an apology. The noble thinking mentioned in Azizi's mentioned is rare and only found on a personal level like in the case of Mr. Hawkins that is when it is a mere gesture with no costs except the apology itaself.

A pardon for a soldier shot for cowardice in 1939-1945 is relevant for their widows' pension (that's why Germany retrospectively declared those sentences injustice only quite recently when most widows were dead and the apology was cheap, says the cynic in me). When and why did Germany apologise for the Nazi crimes? When the preparatory talks about compensation were over at an acceptable price. Why do Poland and Chechia not apologise for the ethnic cleaning of Germans after 1945? Because those Germans (and their heirs) still insist upon ownership of their houses and lands.

Ifor has said clearly what this demand for an apology for slavery is about. As a compensation for the slave trade all the African debts should be cancelled. That's in the backs of the minds and not much else. Bobert has also implicitely posted what he thinks the implications of such an apology should be in the USA.

Descendants of the Moors have asked for an apology from Spain for the expulsion of the Moors from the Iberian peninsula some 500 years ago. At the first glance that looks like a decent demand and everybody asks why the Spanish King apologised in Israel for the expulsion of the Jews (also in 1492) but not in Morocco for the expulsion of the Moors. Well, if you read on what the descendants of the Moors want after the apology you understand. They want preferential treatment for immigration to Spain, that's why. The Jews did get the apology for they had no demand beyond that.

Apologies by countries are about present financial or other advantages. That's why they are so hard to get if the business deal behind it (how much costs us the apology and will you keep your mouths shut after that?) is agreed upon.

Apologies are much easier if there are only relatively few people to benefit from the consequences of an apolgy (if the conquerors of a country are now an overwhelming majority and the descendants of the former owners are few) or if all parties know that after the apology there will be no further costly demands (as in the Britain-Ireland case or in Azizi's story of the Bishop).

In all other cases apologies will only be given at either no costs or relatively low costs. I'm cynical but I fear I'm right here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM

Not the main theme but I'm sometimes also a pedant and not only a cynic:

frogprince,
you started the calculation fine but got lost in the middle:

1,000,000,000,000 divided by 31,536,000 = over 31,709 years

Ouch. If you divide a money unit by a time unit you do not get years but money per time. So, the 31,709 you did get is the amount of $ per second you need to get 1,000,000,000,000 within a single year. Good response but that was not the question asked. With 2000 years time you need just 1/2000 per second of what you calculated. And that is quite close to MMario's solution, but I only get roughly 15 instead of 30 years and I don't know why.

However, if one takes a trillion as 10 to the power of 18 (as in many European countries) one gets a very different result.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Kweku
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:08 AM

I will say it again, slavery was the work of the missionaries and they used their religion as a cover. I hope nobody takes this comment as one coming from a prejudiced mind but from someone who knows that telling his fellow countrymen that the first slave ship was called JESUS would earn him a cold look, or that the Arab moslems did the same thing the Europeans did.

The problem is with people like Bishop Palmer-Buckle who is afraid to confidently tell his countrymen that his church supported the slave trade. My ancestors were taken into slavery by the savagery work of the missionaries so it was in the Ancient Ghana empire by the Arab moslems.

The real people who are supposed to be apolgising are rather acting as sympathisers of the victims. And unfortunately, the worldwide society see them as angels that is why the apology and measures involved in working against slavery has kept long in coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:42 PM

Speaking of missionaries, in Hawaii there's a traditional comment that goes something like: "The missionaries came to do good--and they did REAL well!"

The missionaries and their friends ended up owning far and away most of the island real estate that was of value, and almost all of the big business, and kept a heavy foot on it for many decades. Truth to tell, I bet you could look at the 100 richest families in Hawaii and you'd find that most of them derived their riches from the missionaries' machinations.


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

The advantage of the missionary position

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:29 AM

I've been away from this thread for awhile and just want to make a few comments:

[somewhat off topic] to GUEST,blakprof: Please stick around and continue posting on this and other Mudcat threads, as a member or as a guest. We [Mudcatters]need to hear from more people of color. And I say this recognizing the fact that we [people of color] probably will not agree with each other some or all of the time. But why should people of color agree with each other? [this last a rhetorical question]

****

That said, let me partly agree with Quarcoo's statement that
"slavery was the work of the missionaries and they used their religion as a cover".

However, missionaries weren't the only population of people responsible for slavery...and some missionaries living and working among African peoples are committed to their religious ideals AND have done good works [medical, educational].

Also, though I know little about this aspect of it, it seems to me that the historical actions of Muslims who forced people to convert to Islam and killed and enslaved populations who did not convert {and enslaved persons who did?}, is not the same as what the so-called Christian missionaries did [those who excused their atrocities under the name of Christianity].

Not to mention the current Sudanese experience where Muslims are still enslaving non-Muslims...The fact that race [skin color] is a factor in the Sudanese example with the non-Muslims being enslaved being black skinned and the Muslims being lighter skinned may or may not be a factor-but I rather think it is-since skin color prejudice is one of chattel slavery's terrible legacies that has spread throughout the world including in nations that are ruled by people of color.

Also, Quarcoo, you statement about missionaries does not acknowledge the role that Africans played in enslaving other Africans. The fact is that Africa had slavery before the Europeans came, though it was not that most horrendous form of slavery, chattel slavery.

****

For the record, I agree with Wolfgang's Jun 06 - 05:05 PM comment that "Apologies by countries are about present financial or other advantages". But I would say that forgiving the debt in those nations or really providing financial assistance [instead of making grandstand promises of money] and providing low cost medicine, medical equipment, and medical supplies is a reasonable [to me] way to demonstrate that those nations recognize the heinous nature of chattel slavery.

But I also believe that there is a psychological and metaphysical healing benefit to apologizing and accepting the apology.

And I don't think that expecting or demanding something has to always be a part of the act of apologizing and accepting an apology. It's not always that way on a personal level...

****

Dave'sWife said "I have a friend whose family is Basque. I can tell you that nobody in spain considers them "white". White and black are arbitrary divisions that have no use any more. let's not perpetuate them."

I agree that racial classifications are arbitrary social [and political] constructs whose meaning may vary over time, and from one nation to another.

However, admitting that the referents mean different things to different people, it seem to me that it isn't the referents themselves that are the problem, but the positive and negative value judgements that have been given to these referents.

Because I consider it important, let me close with what I've 'said' on a couple of other Mudcat threads: I'm not working for a time when people are color blind. I'm looking forward to and working for a time when a person's skin color does not matter- on a personal level or on an institutional level.

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Kweku
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:29 AM

Good one there Azizi, I agree with you on the aspect of the fact that some Africans also played a part in the slave trade. But let me also point out some thing to you.

One of the major reasons why slavery thrived in West Africa(that is the area I am very conversant with) is because we Africans see ourselves as one big family,therefore the norm for most families in Ghana for example was to allow their children to stay with aunties and uncles as they are in a better position(unbiased position) to raise their children for them. And the practice has died out,mainly due to slavery. And this system is exactly what the missionaries took advantage of. They made we believe that it was normal for our sons to be educated their way whiles at the same time using these people they trained to capture locals into slavery. It is therefore not surprising all the black slave merchants who benefited fromt this trade were all highly educated the western way(and I say this as someone who's hometown is home to some of these merchants). From time to time they would bring back some of the boys they had sent to Europe back to Ghana neatly dressed to impressed upon the locals that they had nothing to loose in exchanging their children for guns,alcohol etc. As these items are jsut token of the agreement to train their children in Europe. Those who realized this evil act were branded as devils and society frowned on them, that is why the missionaries frowned on African traditional religion and branded our worship as paganism. That is why up to now Africans will still try to reach Spain under dangerous conditions which kill most of them daily. The missionaries used their schools and seminary to train people like Bishop Palmer-Buckle to continue to enslave us,that is why Ghana's first president took the schools from the missionaries and placed them under government control.

On the subject of payment or retribution is not necessary,because it can never replaced what we have lost. We need the churches to accept their evil role and relocate with their members(both black and white) back to where they came from. APOLOGIES they can decide not to, but with time Africans will come to realize that the church is the cause of their woes. Soon and very soon.

We Africans have our Ethopian Orthodox Church to worship in.

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:56 AM

Quarcoo,

I'm glad that Mudcat provides us with an opportunity to exchange insights and opinions about this very important subject.

Up unto fairly recently, I hadn't considered how Africans who remained in their country thought about the roles of some Africans in 18th and 19th century chattel slavery. I recognize from your comments that this both an intellectual and an emotional issue for you, as it is for me and as it also may be for people of European descent.

I believe that how and why chattel slavery occurred are too important and too complicated to be reduced to one line sound bites. And though I believe that it would be beneficial to receive apologies from all concerned, it is far more important to work to ensure that modern day slavery is ended and something as vile slavery never occurs again.

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM

I fail to see why people have the need to apologise for injustices carried by their ancestors....or why others have the need to hear those apologies....when neither party was involved. It is nonsensical. I refuse to apologise for being white....I refuse to apologise for the fact that my ancestors may or may not have had slaves...I refuse to apologise that my people wore grey. I refuse to apologise for things that I had no control over, things I had no involvement in, things done long before my greatgrandfather was born.

Subject: RE: BS: Apologies over slave trade?
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM

What! Your people wore grey?!!

Oh, horror of horrors!!!