BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?

Subject: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

What if we(us American types) had lost the Revolutionary War? What if we were all English?

Hmmm..

Would George Bush be just another lonely cowpuncher down in Texas?
Would there be a Walmart?
Would Elvis have had a cockney accent?

Makes you wonder..

Jerry (Or would I have to be Jerome?)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:57 PM

You'd be like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa...

You wouldn't have been so beastly to the Native Americans. You'd've abolished slavery earlier. You could have created the sort of society that Texas might not have wanted to join!

You would have entered two world wars earlier.

Nobody on your side of the Atlantic would have been able to do a cockney accent. And they still can't (it always sounds slightly Australian).

And Jerome is a French name!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

Your spelling would improve too!
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:10 PM

You wouldn't have been so beastly to the Native Americans ?? Great Britain's track record with Native peoples hasn't been too terrific either, y'know.

I suspect that the States would have remained seperate or only very loosely confederated- so there would be multiple governments and countries; suspect that it would have caused the Canadian Provinces to remain more independent of each other as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

and big Mac, McDonalds, and Burger King most likely would not exist. Hopefully the "mouse" would not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:15 PM

Mudcatters would all understand irony.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:16 PM

That last post reminds me of Bart Simpson's claim that cartoons are the only truly American art form (he goes on to say that he "doesn't count jazz 'cause it sucks")!

I wonder...

~D

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:16 PM

Is that like goldie and silvery Greg?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

Then you all would be putting bangers and picalilli in your buns.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

* Texas might still be Mexican.
* Alaska might still be Russian.

* Les from Hull - Is your name 'Leslie'? In the US, it would tend to be Lester.

Yeah. If we were British, our section of this continent would probably consist of 35 plus countries (most of them about the size of GREAT Britain) with who-knows-how-many languages and dialects.

The Brits have not been all that great in letting countries govern themselves - so we might have been in constant war long since. With each other.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:33 PM

If someone wouldn't mind changing the title to US revolution, that would be great, thanks...

You'd never have been all English. The colonials were just that, colonials, just like they were in Canada. IIRC, if you asked a normal person in virginia in 1760ish what they were, the first response would probably be ' A Virginian', not American, or English.

As to how it would change history, pick an important event after about 1770, involving either the British Empire or the rebel colonies, and wonder how it might change.

The first big one that comes to mind is the Napoleonic Wars. If North America had been a freindly continent, supplying troops etc, it would certainly have changed the course of that war.

Other significant things would have to include:

If the North American continent had been available to British settlement, would various other places been conquered? Would the vast spaces of the west have sated demand, or would the exta demand from the east coast have pushed us to expand even faster?

How the slave trade would have fared in the south, given the different attitudes in the US and Britian.

Or was that more serious than you meant....

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:39 PM

Blimey!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM

And you would be signing yourself Jeremy.
Robyn (and all the Robyns would be spelled with an i - Robin)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

And maybe even have such socialist institutions as universal medical care.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:51 PM

Ummmmm, we'd probably all have national health care, far fewer guns in the general population and spend alot more time gossipin' 'bout the royal family...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:56 PM

Would we have to play cricket?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,marks
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:59 PM

We would have to drive on the wrong side of the street.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

Men [and women ] make their own history but they don't always do it in circumstances of their own choosing.
Karl

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

No. You'd play it because it's a great game.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

Oh yes, Jerry, and proper football. Not to mention use a knife and fork and hold your pinkie up when drinking your tea :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:03 PM

Oh and tomorrow would just be Tuesday!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:06 PM

Gosh... I wonder... If you Yanks were REALLY playing rugby and football and cricket, would you be winning most every contest? I'd say it's a good thing ye fellers dumped that tea in the harbour... er, harbor.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM

Even good tea does not get me that excited.....

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

Our telephone booths would be a major upgrade, I'll tell you that..


Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

Well, the World Series really would be a World series. Don't know what sport, but it would actually be one someone outside the continent plays....

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

If the Continental Army had surrendered, it would not have been the end of the revolution. It would have continued as a grassroots, guerrilla-style insurrection until the Brits got fed up with fighting an unwinnable war and granted independence voluntarily. No guesses as to how long that would have taken, but probably no more than thirty years.

One question that arises, though, is "If there hadn't been a successful American Revolution, would there have been a French Revolution and would Napoleon have come to power?" If not, if the Brits hadn't had to devote most of their military resources in the early 1800s to the Napoleonic Wars, how strong a hold would they have been able or willing to maintain on the American colonies?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

Bee-dubya-ell (in his first paragraph) beat me to it! I was going to say that if the colonists hadn't won the 1775-1783 Revolutionary War, they would've won a later one during King George III's reign. As George III sank deeper and deeper into mental illness, he would have done more and more things that would have outraged the colonists even further than they were in the 1770s (the Declaration of Independence demonstrates the popular view that he was personally responsible for their political woes).

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

If the American Colonies had NOT won, would the Irish rebellions of 1798, 1803, the rest of the 19th Century, and 1916 have happened? Would India be a seperate country? And as has been asked, what about France? And Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:04 PM

If we'd lost the Revolution, we'd all be speaking ENGLISH now.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

I was kind of thinking along the lines of the 'colonies' never having revolted, rather than having lost. I agree, the issue would have come up over and over again. Kind of like the Democrats against the Republican Party. grrrrrrr

But if 'we' had never revolted, if all disagreements had been peacefully resolved- hey, we'd be more like Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:26 PM

We Aussies would be speaking French.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

You would be descended from convicts.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:00 PM

Assuming that my various grandparents would have been let into this country in the 1890's, It probably would have been much the same for me. Of course I'd have had to learn the names of several dozen kings and queens, a hundreds of great battles, but I wouldn't have had to waste so much time figuring out what happened in the Civil War (1861-1865).

From my visits to Eastern and Western Canada, the folks there seemed quite civilized. Maybe we should start a petition to rejoin the United Kingdom, before it evaporates completely!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:47 PM

Of course if the French hadn't lost out a few years earlier, the Colonies wouldn't have wanted the British to clear out anyway. And the rest of North America would have been developed on the basis of a division between a French speaking area and a Spanish speaking area, both of them with a largely Native American population. And the Russians in an expanded Alaska.

I imagine slavery would have been abolished in the East Coast British Colonies about the same time as happened in places like Jamaica.

And there probably wouldn't have been a French Revolution, not at that time anyway. I suspect there would have been one in Britain around about the 1820s. Perhaps the Royal, Family would have legged it to the Colonies in America, and an Independent North American monarchy would have emerged, linked with Hanover and the rest of Germany...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:20 PM

Ah. The Royal Family would have emigrated to the 'new' world- and all of its territory would have become the monarch's fiefdom.

(When my daughter was 7 or 8, I came upon her in deep thought. She looked up at me. Mommy, she said, do Royalty ever marry mortals?)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:47 PM

To those who say that slavery would have been abolished earlier: do you really think that the plantation owners and other slaveowners would have been any more willing to give up that practice under British rule than they were under US federal governance?

Remember that people owned slaves even in the northern colonies and that that practice continued into the early 1800s in the northern states. Heck, the Revolutionary War would never have gotten off the ground if the northern colonies' representatives at the Continental Congresses hadn't capitulated to pressure from the southern colonies to allow the practice of slaveholding to continue in the new republic. The law of the land in the entire United States, even though abolitionists in the northern states found it reprehensible, was that any escaped slave was to be returned to his or her owner no matter where he or she was found. And when the Civil War was finally waged, the majority of Union soldiers were more concerned with preserving the Union than with emancipation.

Given the apathy in the general population of the North and the high feeling on the subject in the South, I suspect that if Britain still ruled the American colonies in the 1830s when various legislation abolished slavery in the British colonies, the Revolutionary War would have been fought then and, if the American colonies had won as they well might have (given the resources of the North especially in light of growing industrialism), the United States might have been a slaveholding nation for even longer than it was.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:51 PM

We would have treated the Native Americans better? Kind of like the native Irish got treated? I don't think so.

With all due respect to my British friends, the Revolution didn't start because your Monarchy and Government were just a bunch of great but misunderstood folks. I surely don't have a problem with not bashing England, but one only needs look at the colonial policies of the Empire around the world to understand how it would have went.

To be honest, I sometimes tire of how it seems fine to point out every wart of the US, but doing the same to others doesn't fly. Great Britain has a historical track record around the world. If we had lost the revolution, we would have been treated as traitors and the repression would have been of the type designed to deal with traitors.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:36 PM

Okay, Jerry, interesting question.

First of all, you should have said "the American Revolution". Do you know how many revolutions there have been in this world? Yours was not the only one, though I know it seems that way when you grow up in the American educational system... ;-)

But I digress...

Let's say that the British monarchy had been more flexible and sensible, and there had been no American revolution in the 1770's or later. Well, then, all of North America would have become a great British dominion instead of just the northermost half of it....the future "Greater Canada"? It would have been a greater dominion than India. Truly the "jewel in the crown" of England.

As such, it would have been administered in a rather different way...more focused on social order and consistent British law, less focused on aggressive individualism. The national policy toward the Indian tribes would probably have been handled in a somewhat more decent and law-abiding fashion (the British tended not to break treaties, for example, while the USA broke basically every treaty)...but the Indians would still have lost everything in the end. There would almost certainly have been far fewer Indian wars, but there would still have been some, I'm sure. The vast expanses of the west would have been opened up in the British fashion (as in Canada):

1. First you send in well-trained government lawmen and administrators, and make sure the structure of law and government is well established BEFORE the settlers pour in!

2. THEN you allow the settlers and business people in afterward. No "Wild West". Social order instead of a few decades of virtual anarchy.

That would have meant a frontier that was far less violent and lawless, it would have meant we would lose most of those great tales we have now about gunfighters, train robbers, whisky traders, and all the other violent stuff that makes American (and Mexican) western stories so much fun! Boring...right? The USA had hundreds of Indian wars out west and thousands of gunfighter incidents. Canada had 2 small Indian wars out west during the same period, and a handful of "gunfighter" type incidents. This was a direct result of the differences between Canadian (British) policy and America's laissez-faire "survival of the fittest" approach to opening up the frontier.

Slavery would probably have ended a few decades sooner, without a war being fought over it.

Napoleon would have had a much tougher time in Europe...if the French Revolution had happened at all, which it might not have.

Presently the entire British North American region would have become independent, as Canada has, through a gradual series of political developments of a parliamentary nature. It would have maintained strong cultural ties to the UK, and it would have directly assisted the UK in WWI and WWII (if WWII occurred at all). The Germans would have had a tougher time in both of those wars, because the odds against them would have been greater from the start.

Big Mick - It's my opinion, having studied Canadian and American history, that the Indians would have been treated somewhat better by a British administration...but...as I said before...they would still have lost everything in the end. They had no real hope, either way.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:41 PM

LH, a well thought out post. I am not sure I buy all the premises but you have put me in one of those "let me think this through" modes ..... shit, I hate it when you do that ..... LOL.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:49 PM

One of the things that comes to me almost immediately is that I am not sure the whole concept of devolved power would have ever come about. The American Revolution, and its experiment in democratic republicanism, had a couple of hallmarks. One would be the Bill of Rights, but we all know the Magna Charta had a huge influence on that, yet it was unique in a number of ways. Another would be the idea that the ultimate power did not have to reside in some "thing", be it a King, or whatever. The Constitution which ultimately evolved out of the experiment, split that power in at least 3 parts. The recent decision by the US Supreme Court against the wishes of the Administration and its current war powers, shows that important principle, which was unique to the American Constitution, still works. It is interesting to ponder the unique differences in our style of representative democracy, and what the world would be like had they never occurred.

Great thread, Jerry. My mind shifted into overdrive after reading LH's post and now I probably won't get to bed for about 2 hours thinking about this.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:50 PM

Thanks, Mick. I really appreciate it when people are willing to consider alternative possibilities and think about them. It speaks well for you, because most people aren't willing to...they just react! (in the usual, predictable fashion)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:18 AM

Slavery might have lasted longer, or turned into a kind of peonage.
Slaves were needed to work the cotton plantations in the south, also the sugar plantations and tobacco plantations. Those were major cash crops. If they had maintained control of India as well, then Britain would have had a near monopoly on cotton production. You have to remember that cotton was the wonder fiber of the 18th and 19th centuries, and the ability to produce cotton cloth cheaply revolutionized the textile industry.
England was a pioneer in the textile industry. If the U.S. had lost the revolution, cotton would have flowed steadily from Charleston and Savannah, and (I expect eventually) New Orleans, to the textile mills in Manchester and Leeds. I doubt that the British would have wanted to interfere with that nice, steady flow.
Then, of course, there's tobacco, and sugar, also very labor intensive crops, but very lucrative ones. It is possible that Parliament might have abolished slavery by promoting slaves to serfs. (Not much of a promotion.)

I might also mention one of the lowest moments in Pittsburgh history. Sir Jeffrey Amherst, the Royal Governor of North America wrote to Colonel Henri Bouquet, a Swiss mercenery who commanded Fort Pitt, reccomending that he provide the local Indians with blankets and various items of clothing that had been used by people who had died of smallpox, to spread the disease among the Native Americans. To paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill, "This was NOT England's finest hour."

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM

Well, let's see and this is all MAYBE, and just one scenario of many possibilities...

There wouldn't have been a "Luisiana Purchase"

The Colonies would not have developed into into the wealthy industrial nation that the States was in the Twentieth Century.

Then Britain would not have had a Big Brother across the ocean to come and help out in two world wars.

The Battle of Britain would have been lost without the American supplies that were shipped across the North Atlantic.

The Axis Powers would have won WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:59 AM

"We would have treated the Native Americans better? Kind of like the native Irish got treated? I don't think so." Big Mick.

The Irish are still in possession of most of their land (in spite of Dungeon, Fire and Swird). Not so the Red Indians.

No US revolution -> no French revolution, but a relatively peaceful slow liberalisation (which Louis wanted anyway). Probably most of europe following. The peaceful conditions would have hindered the growth of industry in England (no big military market) and so the industrial revolution would have been slower. Without the army's needs forcing up the price of horses and fodder, steam railways would have been slower to develop. Lower absorption of men by the forces would have speeded population growth (though partly counterbalanced by fewer soldiers with fiddles in their knapsacks). Emigration to America, both voluntary and penal, would have increased. The larger population would have put pressure on land, eventually leading to major conflict with aboriginals, who would probably have been forced beyond the Appalachians, but without mechanised transport no further. Australia probably would not have happened, at least not when it did, as America is much nearer.

Slavery would have increased as penal population increased, but would have been mixed- race rather than purely black- probably including aborigoinals in the mix too. Without the machinery that the industrial revolution developed, manpower would have been all the more important. With the growth of a slave caste in America, importation from Africa would have declined, and the slave trade eventually died of its own accord.

Liberal western Europe would probably have eventually resulted in major wars with feudal Russia, and the industrial development would have accelerated maybe 50-100 years later than it did in our history.

With a lower rate of industrialisation, there would have been less competition for oil. The Middle East would have remained a romantic political backwater, only of interest as somewhere on the way to india, which itself might well have remained a collection mostly nominally independent, Balkanised states.

Northern Ireland would have been exactly the same, as nothing there has changed since 1689.

In 1984 Miss M. Roberts, grocer and spinster of Grantham, was taken into custody after a vicious attack on Mr.A.Scargill, a collier from Yorkshire. She claimed he had marched into her shop, demanding lower prices for miners, and singing "'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we go". After an investigation in which it was found that she had sold the family silver, burned the floorboards and stolen milk from local schoolchildren, she was sent to the National Lunatic Asylum at Westminster, London.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:33 AM

Most of these theories are based on NOT HAVING a Revolution, not if the North had won it...

As an English person whose own history is confusing enough, my education omitted American history (mind you, they omitted about 1000 years of British history too), so I'm still a tad confused; Are we talking about the American Civil War (North vs South) or the American War of Independence (Britain vs the Colonies)?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:48 AM

War of Independence or The Revolution, which has daughters, in US parlance. The other one was the War Between The States, which has many progeny but none of them legitimate. The Louisiana Purchase was when Napoleon sold Cajun to the USA, France got off lightly. Davy Crockett got them Tex-Mex to go with it, and California too, and the Tsar (Alexander I think) sold them Alaska in 1867 when everybody thought it was useless.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:02 AM

Ah... Independence.. Well... we wouldn't have that film with Will Smith in it, nor would you have a whitewashed copy of St Pauls Cathedral as your main lunatic asylum.

Your main fast food outlet would be the Greasy Spoon or Olde Corner Tea Shoppe (alternatively known as the Copper/Singing Kettle or the Spinning Wheel), and you'd have Primark rather than Walmart....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

First up, Happy Fourth of July to everyone over there! I think Jerry's original post was a lighthearted one, because in reality, Independence in the statutory sense could only possibly have been deferred. Its destiny was always certain. Independence may not have been recognised by treaty before, but it was the reality on the ground. A new nation was already forming and no amount paper waving could change that reality.
Personally, I can live without Coca cola, oversized cars, chewing gum, heavy duty advertising and the garish TV productions. These things are presented to me as the substance of American culture. I don't believe it all and I believe that many Americans feel their country represents something much better to them. I can see some of this kindness and thoughtfulness at Mudcat.
I often feel our British identity is falsely described in terms of our royals, our class system and the ridiculous pretensions of empire - which robbed our own citizens nearly as much as the invaded countries. I think no less of Americans, who have to carry a lot of similar baggage around with them.
Overthrowing an outdated power has always proved easier than building a better system.
Just one suggestion... Any chance you might adopt the European concept of pedestrian precincts? It would make life a little easier for us buskers!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:31 AM

But in all likelihood we would still have had MacDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut and White Castle, since those franchise chains all trace, albeit some rather indirectly, back to early entrepreneurs in Kansas, where the existence of a "real world" of any kind is unknown.

Pizza Hut was inspired by a couple of courses in "small business management" at the "University of Wichita" which has since been renamed "Wichita State University," but is commonly called, by the few local people with an actual education from places with "credentials" as "Hillside High."

The University, fairly shortly after it was apparent that Pizza Hut was doing well, was among the first, if not the first as they claimed, to offer a degree in "Enterpernuership." And yes, it's true, that they ran the ads on local TV for more than three years before someone pointed out to them that they'd spelled it wrong.

England? What's an England?

(I gave up trying to explain it to the locals decades ago.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:51 AM

The "British" did win the war.
If you think about it the "Continental Army" were mainly of British stock, Fighting a German King who was using German troops.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:04 AM

I think a big industrial society would have developed anyway in North America, but it would have done so more gradually under British rule...as there would not have been nearly such a driving, competitive motivation to compete with Britain as arose with the emergence of the 13 colonies achieving independence.

How all that would have affected the various European wars is pretty hard to say.

England would, in any case, have benefited tremendously from having all the resources of North America at its disposal, so the British Empire would have been in an even stronger position historically vis a vis other European powers than it was during the 1800's and right through to the present era. England was really the world's one superpower for a time there...from the defeat of Napoleon until the onset of the First World War. WWI critically strained British financial resources and their empire began to subtly weaken from that point on...although that was not really apparent to people in an external sense until the post-WWII era unfolded after 1945...at which point the USA began to emerge as the next one world superpower. The Soviets tried to compete on an even basis with the USA, but actually they couldn't. It took about another 40 years for that to become clear.

China will probably emerge as the next one world superpower. We'll see...if we all live long enough.

One thing for sure. Nobody stays on top forever. But they all think it will be forever while they are there. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:23 AM

Ah yes indeed... the 1000 year Reich, the Roman Empire, the Peacock Thrones.... the way of all flesh....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

Happy Tuesday to all our colonies :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:18 AM

If the revolution had never happened, or gone the other way, there would not have been the Lousiana purchase. The British Empire would never buy something from the French, not if they could just take it.

The Royal navy would have a fairly good blockade up, so there would be minimal support available from France. The french speaking colonies would have had had no chance. See Canada and Qubec as an example...


Who knows where the border might have ended up? If the British Empire had been running the Southern border, a process similar to that in Inda might have happened. Support one side in one of their petty arguments, be invited in as traders, or millitary advisers, and quite soon, the Generallisimo of that little state finds the British are running it, and have to secure the border with the next one to stop the bandits. Repeat!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

The Roman empire didn't do too badly, perhaps not a thousand year magisterium in the West, but 27BC to 476AD is better than the Dritter Reich by a factor of 4000%, or 32dB. And of course it continued in the east to 1453AD- almost one-and-a-half Thousand Year Reichs. Not that it was contributing much for the last 700 years or so.

I think a lot of people are missing an important point with What If history. That is that if any given event A hadn't happened, a whole string of events would have been different. So it's not just no USA to help us out in world wars- the world wars probably would have happened quite differently if at all. Britain could have been the grumbling bitter fascists after defeat by Portugal (so it might have been all the same anyway).

What if Catherine of Aragon had had a son? What if Harold had pushed William into the sea? What if the whole branch had dropped on Isaac Newton's head instead of just one apple? What if Johnny Appleseed had planted marijuana instead of apples?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:47 AM

I wrote the title as listed because I didn't have enough letters to say What If America Lost The Revolutionary War. I kept trimming it down until it fit. I started the thread in a light-hearted way, but I also appreciate the more serious side of the question. Looking more seriously, I try to see the reasons for celebrating the 4th of July here (and I see many) along with the daily self-flagelation that so many Americans engage in. Embarassment and shame for our governement's invasion of Iraq, treatment of prisoners, abuse of the environment and the economic injustice that has gotten worse during the Bush administration overshadows the appreciation of what is great about this country. I'm not talking "Great" in super-power terms, or technology. I'm talking about the spirit of most of the people I cross paths with... friends and strangers.

There was a very recent poll about how the English see America, and it is heavily tilted toward the Hollywood and media portrayal of this country. You'd think everyone was dealing drugs or being consumed with greed. I don't believe our current government reflects the heart of the American people, and I am encouraged that we live in a democarcy that despite all of it's very human failures provides a framework for righting the ship when a pirate takes the helm. And I believe that is happening. There are too many people of good will and generosity in this country to allow present day Carpet Baggers to destroy what so many gave their lives to create.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:05 AM

Liz - the American War of Independence wasnt't Britain v the Colonies it was Britain v the Colonies + France + Spain + the Netherlands (apologies if I've left anyone out).

Do people in the USA believe that it was George III who was running Britain at the time? We chopped the head of the last King who tried that!

Thanks to Little Hawk. It seems that you explained what I was saying much better than I did. I think I was going for soundbites!!

I think that there could have been a sort of intermediate American Civil War/Revolution round about the 1830s when emancipation came through. The main difference in America was that the slave owners lived on the land, whereas in the British West Indies they tended not to. I can't see any other scenario than a quick defeat for the South in such a war if it was Britain plus the North against them.

And of course you Americans would have been playing cricket. And you'd have been much better people because of it! (And you'd've beat us possibly even more than now do the Australians, New Zealanders, West Indies, Sri Lankans...)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

Surely

Britain + some of the Colonists V Some of the the Colonists + France + Spain + the Netherlands (apologies if I've left anyone out).

The Revolution was really a civil war as well. There was definite support for and against the Crown from the colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

About a third of the Colonists support England, a third were for Independence, and a third didn't give shit who who won as long as they were left alone to get on with the sowing, harvesting and other daily tasks. This according to John Adams, who was there and ought to have known.

I find most revolutions are that way, except that the "don't give a shit" portion is usually larger than 1/3.

One immediate effect of the Colonies losing the War would have been at least a hundred bodies swinging in the wind -- assuming that they were left unquartered.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM

I'd be able to get a decent pint of Bitter.....

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM

Imagining alternative hisitories is fun enough, but there are so many variables. For example, at what point do you place your imaginary change, before the fighting has started so the war gets averted, or when it's well under way?

Saying "we" isn't really justifiable anyway. It's never "we", it's "they", because, if things had gone differently, the "we" who is put in the hypoethical would never have existed.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM

O.K: Maybe the title should have been "What If those persons who lived at the time of the Revolutionary War, Understanding That Only One-Third Of The Population Supported The War, Lost The War, Assuming That The War Had Actually Started? :-)

Imagine.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM

We'd have to spell it "aluminium".



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

well you'd have make do with a Moderately Large Mac, because we English aren't given to making extravagant claims.

the queen would have to have a boobs job and face lift, more of a sort of Joan Rivers style monarchy.

You would have taught Red Indians to play cricket, and they would beat you.

you'd have to get used the Scots and the Irish hating your guts, and Martin guitar factory would go out of business, cos you'd all sing folksongs unaccompanied with a finger stuck in at least one ear (the other ear optional).

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:09 AM

Wonderful post, Weelittle:

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

Paul Burke, you are kidding, right? Like the English didn't come in and take away the land from the native Irish? Please tell me you are not that ignorant of the history.

Could some of my Irish friends please explain to this guy the truth of it?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

Paul Burke wrote... "The Irish are still in possession of most of their land..."

Paul, my Irish great grandparents had their land taken away by the British. The oppression finally drove them from their native parish to immigrate to the US in the 1880's. They grieved the loss. They did not want to leave their own country. The installed landlord was oppressive and they left to survive, but they had to give up the land their ancestors had for hundreds of years. My relatives continue to go back and visit the town we came from, grieving the loss of our native home. Millions of native Irish families were driven from Ireland and are not "still in possession" of their land.

The native Americans are still having to deal with what happened to their land, I agree, a sad legacy of broken promises.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

Alice/Big Mick - for English/British read English/British Aristocracy. My ancestors never took anybody's land. Neither did they have any land of their own to be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:03 PM

Alice, some of my Irish ancestors came to England from Galway and Westmeath between the 1840s and the 1900s. Some of them never had any land to be taken, not everyone can have the farm in a big family. Others were actively involved (as land agents) in evictions. Still other ancestors were English, but they weren't taking anyones land in Ireland; as Recusants they had enough on their hands trying to stay unnoticed by the law. Others still were soldiers and factory workers.

But the big difference between Ireland and the USA is that any attempts at genocide in Ireland were ineffective (not totally for lack of trying), whereas whole nations have disappeared in America, and were intended to.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:19 PM

I wouldn't need a passport to visit "Old Blighty".

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

But there isn't a Native American Republic taking in most of the North American continent is there? And not likely to be.

The basic dynamic involved is that settlers engaged in occupying a foreign country tend to go in for what is now called ethnic cleansing, displacing the original inhabitants insofar as they can. It happened in America, Australia, South Africa, Israel. It happened in Ireland too, most especially in some parts, but alongside the other dynamic of trying to exploit the natives rather than replace them, as in South Africa. That keeps the way open in the long run for some kind of qualified reversal.

It's really nothing to do with any intrinsic difference between the people involved.
.......................

But it's silly people getting hot under the collar about imagining how history might have worked out differently. It's just a game after all. (Mind though in the context of the World Cup, it has to be admitted, the fact that something is "just a game" doesn't stop people getting very hot indeed under the collar, and smashing the furniture at that...)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Another possible scenario is that The Colonies could have gone the same way as most of the rest of the British Empire and could have been given back to the natives sometime after WWII.

Well said, Greg F, the same thing can be said for a decent loaf of bread.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:32 PM

Yes, even a war was ostensibly fought over a soccer game...though there were other reasons too.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

"Would George Bush be just another lonely cowpuncher down in Texas?"

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry !!! ONE MORE TIME - Shrub is NOT from Texas and he's never punched cows. The longhorns here in Ft Worth would most likely punch him back.

George W is a yankee carpet bagger { with my apologies to all of the GOOD yankee carpet baggers } who came down from New England to Texas just to make money. And he didn't do a very good job of it either. We're willing to send him back anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, I know that Wesley... I know that he wasn't born in Texas... he was born right here in Connecticut. But, he claims himself as being a Texan. I mean, he wears a cowboy hat, doesn't he? Up here in Connecticut, we like to think of him as a Texan.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

But Texas would probably have been Spanish anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

So, if Texas don't want W, and Connecticut don't want him, and Maine don't want him, who does?

But back to the topic at hand...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

When his old man was running for president, he claimed to be a "Mainer" because he owns a summer place in Kennebunkport. Funny that he never paid one cent in Maine income tax.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

McDonalds would be serving Haggis.

They would ask you: "Do you want tatties with that?"

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Dax
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:44 PM

Happy 4th!
In Nova Scotia the British governor, Edward Cornwallis did indeed spread smallpox among the Indians by giving them infested blankets. The excuse being that the Mi'kmaq were French allies and all was fair in war. Disease from the white man killed most of the natives by intention or by accident as they had no immunity to the white man's germs. Nova Scotia was also a haven for slaves fleeing the USA. We did not send them back, but neither were they treated as equals. We chose not to join the Revolution because we were prosperous under the Crown at that time, and so remained loyal to Britain. We gained an influx of refugees from the 13 more southern colonies known here as United Empire Loyalists. They helped build this country and we owe a dept to the American revolution for that. When Canada demended its independance we were able to do it through peacefull means, partly because Britain did not want another revolution and negotiated instead. We also owe the USA for that.
A yet unborn country to be known as Canada benefitted greatly from the American Revolution although its people fought in opposition.
   Ain't history strange?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

Those are very interesting insights, Dax.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

Yes the loss of the US prompted a report from Lord something-or-other, which the Goverment acted on, and it changed the relations with Canada, and the other white colonies hugely. It essentially gave them what the US rebels were demanding in the first place. Lower taxes, and more representaition in Goverment. It's the reason they didn't get upset with us in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:32 PM

You're welcome...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

Actually, when the first shots were fired, the Americans had it made under British rule. The only thing still in place was the "Navigation Acts." They guaranteed a market for the American goods, but they were not allowed to do business with whom they chose. And, they were better off than their counterparts in England.

The radicals wanted war, and they got it.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM

That's the way radicals always are... (grin) They yearn to sweep the board clean of the "old ideas" and start afresh.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Dax
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM

Bunnahabhain , that would be Lord Durham, known in England as Radical Jack. His report brought about democratic government to Upper Canada (Ontario) and Lower Canada (Quebec) and led to amalgamation with Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to give birth to the Dominion of Canada in 1867.
Other colonies and territories joined later; Newfoundland being the last in 1949.
Nova Scotia came very close to declining the invitation to join, as it had declined to join the rebelling colonies nearly a century earlier. Ironic in that the main reason was that Nova Scotia's ecomomy was much more closely tied to the USA than it was to Upper Canada. It was also the most prosperous of the colonies that had remained British. Under confederation that prosperity was lost because trade routes change from the sea to the land.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:42 AM

Now here's a question. Would the flowering of New England have happened if we'd remained a British colony?
Would there have been a Margaret Fuller, a Ralph Waldo Emerson, a Herman Melville, an Emily Dickenson. Well, there might have been, but would they have been taken seriously as writers, these men and women from the colonial backwoods?
Off the top of my head I can think of only 2 Canadian writers of any note, Robetson Davies and L.M. Mongomery.
Lincoln would, probably, be remembered as an engineer, not a politician. One of those interesting facts, Lincoln held a patent for a piece of machinery designed to help riverboats move upstream. He was a bright man. Lacking the opportunity to study law, he would have focussed his energies on mechanics, I suspect. Though he also wrote poetry......

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:51 AM

Some other Canadian writers:

Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro, Earle Birney, Timothy Findlay, Michael Ondaatje, Margaret Laurence.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

BTW, Emily Dickinson was not really appreciated until after her death. Much later in fact. Very few of her poems (I read somewhere years back that only seven were published--and none under her name) were released. It wasn;t until the early 1920s that there was a major release of her work.

Some of the Canadians have an interesting history too. But that would be thread drift.

FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:05 AM

But, he claims himself as being a Texan. I mean, he wears a cowboy hat, doesn't he?

Hell, I wear a dress and frilly knickers, don't make me a lady!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM

True - I read a book by John Grisham - it doesn't make me a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

The Answer is: Planet Of The Apes

And the Question is: What If We Had Lost The Evolution?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:24 PM

..er...the 1st Cricket International would likely have been played between England & somebody else that also still plays the game?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:18 PM

You wouldn't hear much about Patrick Henry, and Benedict Arnold would be a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

We would end up being pompous and believing the sun never sets on our empire.

Hmm... maybe we did learn a few things from those loveable limeys.

Brit beer?   Please, pond scum has more flavor. We may be guilty of having tasteless swell like Budweiser, but we also learned brewing skills from the Germans and Belgians and now have one of the most interesting lines of brews on the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:33 PM

You would also know that the term 'limey' was a term of endearment meaning 'someone who is not suffering from scurvy'!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

Of course. And you know what the term "Yank" represents?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

Ah.. she wears cheap knickers... one Yank and they're off.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

I think Ron must have come across the English equivalent brews to Budweiser, which are equally repulsive though in a different way. I'm glad to hear that there are a range of far better American beers, and assure him the same is true of English beers.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Real Budweiser (Budvar) which comes from the Czech Republic is of course quite a different case. And I wish In had a case of it downstairs in this hot weather...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

"We would end up being pompous and believing the sun never sets on our empire."

Nowt to do with being pompous Ron, just a statement of fact. The East/West spread of the empire was so great that there was always some portion of it in the daylight half of the globe.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

Just messing with the Brits Don! I was trying to use that "irony" thing that they accuse us of lacking!!! :)

In all seriousness, we all tend to make generalization and use terms (Limey, Yank) that without meaning to can be derogatory.   Most countries and its citizens have a sense of self-importance that comes along with ethnocentric bias.   Some of the comments are Brit friends make at our expense seems to have roots in their own culture. I guess it isn't easy for any of us to look at ourselves which is why we tend to make comments about others.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Ryan Moyer, 13 years old "Texas"
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

Well, to me, there is no "IF". We won the revolution for a reason,I mean things happen for reasons, and personaly I wouldn't dwell about things in the past-er-I mean you shouldn't question things like that, like I said, it happend for a reason, we were supposed to become a great country of our own. Now if you want to question something that's worth questioning, ask something like this "when the United States closed the border to mexico, and all the mexicans got mad, don't you think Mexico would have done the same if "TO MANY" U.S citizens were flocking,or illegaly going to mexico, like they were doing to us?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Reggie
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

Would there be Alfie's or Atrhur Treachers Fish N Chips?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM

Yes, Ryan, but if that were the case then you would probably be trying to get into Mexico right now... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM

Ryan,

It didn't happen "for a reason" Washington got lucky and won some battles that were pretty close. If the British had won, that would have been "for a reason too" but things wouldn't be all that different.

The Mexicans come across the border because the fat cats with money want them to. And whether those fat cats live in Washington or London or Austin or Crawford doesn't make much difference to ordinary people.