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What's wrong with this song?
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Subject: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Texas Guest Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:15 PM Mudcatters, curiosity has gotten the better of me here and I'd like some opinion. Although I do make my living singing songs, I am not much of a song writer - I lose coffeehouse gigs left and right because I don't do my own material. With that knowledge, shortly after the bombing of 9/11, I, like most Americans was very angry and did, in fact, support going over to Afghanistan to do a little damage - hell, do a lot of damage. In that light I wrote the tune below on a suggestion from a pub patron one night back in 2001 who heard me do the "Battle Of New Orleans." Well, I took the melody from the "B of N.O." ("January 8th")wrote some words and recorded it on a single disc; but, I couln't get anyone to air it - even in nacho-macho Texas. I could't get pop stations to play it, I couldn't get country stations to play it, or NPR to play it; hell, I even had a soldier from down in Fort Hood take it to the military broadcasters and they wouldn't play it. The lady in charge of programming at the Dallas/Ft. Worth NPR station said she wouldn't touch it with the proverbial "ten-foot pole." (Why she brought the Poles into it I'll never know!) The song is certainly not a great work of art, but I don't think it's that bad either; and, I don't see it as being "too politically incorrect." Just for the record, I haven't done the song in over three years and I only bring it up here because I came across a few left-over copies in a box out in the garage and that set me to thinking. Again, it's the same melody as, "Battle Of New Orleans." Hey, have some fun. THE BATTLE OF 2001 So now everybody knows what our enemies have done Just like December 7th back in 1941 They took us by surprise like so many years ago Now they scatter like wild hare headed for a hole We're fire-in' our guns gonna get Bin Laden Al-Quada and the Talaban wherever they go If it takes ten years till we get the lot of 'em Time don't matter it's to hell they're gonna go Well they took four planes then to do their dirty deed Under false religious veils for to cover up their greed Crashing walls left pain and a scar upon our land So we're headed over seas, we're gonna' Drop-bomb-istan (CHORUS) They can run to the hills they can run to the mountains They can hide all night / they can hide all day But when it's over and done all the cheerin' and shoutin' Will be done by the forces of the USA Now they're hidin' in the mountains using every hole and cave Like the dirty rats they are – till we stick 'em in a grave Sure we'll find those devils with the towels around their heads Gonna' tear 'em all to pieces – make 'em little towelettes! (CHORUS) (BRIDGE) (OUT) |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Peace Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:21 PM The last two lines. (There were C and W songs that topped that for "let's go kick ass". However, they didn't get 'racist' about it.) IMO |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,mg Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM Well...I like the chorus...the rest of it doesn't really scan too well which is the biggest problem I think songs have. And it is offensive talking about people wearing towels and it is uncertain to me they had greed rather than sincere religious fanaticism... and heads and towelettes don't rhyme....so I would say just sing songs that are popular where you play and some of your own but I would let this one go. mg |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Sorcha Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM Well, I'm not sure what is 'wrong' with the song if you are a right wing Repub conservative, but I'd get up and walk out, never listen to the station again, etc......ya know, Tex, not everybody in the country is a crazy war lovin looney. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Tinker in Chicago Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:39 PM One more detail. The "towels" on their heads refers to turbans, right? Well, the Sikhs wear turbans and they're not Muslims. You shouldn't include them in your diatribe. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Charlie Baum Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:49 PM Years ago, I remember going to a festival in New York State (I hesitate to call it a "folk festival," but others often did) at which many people sang songs which were terrible songs but politically correct, and performers got vast amounts of applause for political correctness alone. I was inspired by this experience to try to see if I could write a decent song from a political viewpoint I disagreed with--to see if I couldn't put together a good song that explained something, had insight into a peculiar political viewpoint, particularly one that was as politically incorrect as possible. I tried writing a song defending apartheit from the perspective of a white South African, trying to get into his mind and exploring the fears that led him to his convictions. I think I did a creditable job (though the lyric sheet has diappeared to the bottom of some pile of papers and I can't locate the words easily enough to present them here tonight). Let me ask you what insights and wit your song conveys to people who might not agree with your political viewpoint? What interesting and non-obvious perspective(s) or clever phrasing of shared knowledge does it offer those who DO agree with your political viewpoint? It's not enough for a GOOD song to merely deliver a point of view. You must do so with wit or cleverness, or suffer the pangs of ordinariness. --Charlie Baum |
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Subject: Lyr Add: COURTESY OF THE RED WHITE AND BLUE (Keith From: Peace Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM The following song topped the Country charts. It is a poorly-written thing--pardon, it's bloody awful. It ranks up there with "Horse With No Name" for bad writing. BUT, it still topped the charts. Go figger. Appeal to patriotism. It's a sure-fire way to sell anything. Toby Keith Song: Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue (The Angry American) Lyrics American Girls and American Guys We'll always stand up and salute We'll always recognize When we see Old Glory Flying There's a lot of men dead So we can sleep in peace at night When we lay down our head My daddy served in the army Where he lost his right eye But he flew a flag out in our yard Until the day that he died He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me To grow up and live happy In the land of the free. Now this nation that I love Has fallen under attack A mighty sucker punch came flyin' in From somewhere in the back Soon as we could see clearly Through our big black eye Man, we lit up your world Like the 4th of July Hey Uncle Sam Put your name at the top of his list And the Statue of Liberty Started shakin' her fist And the eagle will fly Man, it's gonna be hell When you hear Mother Freedom Start ringin' her bell And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue Justice will be served And the battle will rage This big dog will fight When you rattle his cage And you'll be sorry that you messed with The U.S. of A. 'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass It's the American way Hey Uncle Sam Put your name at the top of his list And the Statue of Liberty Started shakin' her fist And the eagle will fly Man, it's gonna be hell When you hear Mother Freedom Start ringin' her bell And it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: michaelr Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:30 AM That song made the Dixie Chicks wear those FYTK shirts. It's only marginally worse than the one by Texas Guest. Our British friends would call this thead a wind-up. I call it trolling. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:31 AM Well, I think the whole thing doesn't do much for the cause of world peace, but it's probably the towel-head quip that got you rejected. Even the most Neanderthal conservatives agree that towel-head is a racist term. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Jacob B Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:32 AM Texas Guest, I think Peace and mg are right. To expand upon their points: If you say something that means, "We're going to get the people who did this", then no one has any problem with it. If you say, "We're going to kill the people who did this", then some people (including some radio station managers) might hesitate, because killing without a trial smacks slightly of murder, and they don't like the song being explicit about death. However, there are probably still plenty of people who would like the thought. However, if you say, "We're going to kill people WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS simply because they have some similarity to the people who did this", then you're going to get people upset, and rightly so. I think those station managers took those last two lines as being that kind of statement, whether or not you meant it that way. Referring to people with "towels around their heads" tends to be taken as lumping all Muslims into one category, which brings up issues of racism. Some of the station managers may just have not liked the recording, but some of them may have seen playing that line as asking for trouble. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:43 AM What the heck...the Nazis had lots of rip-roaring patriotic songs to motivate the troops and keep the homefires burning. Maybe just wait until martial law is declared in the USA and the Constitution suspended and your song may yet win the acceptance and approval it so clearly deserves... ;-) Say...what would you do if you found out that people high up in the USA government helped plan and arrange 911? Hmmm? What would you do if you knew how many rich people cashed in on the stock market by pre-selling airline stocks and such just before it happened...like they knew it was going to happen ahead of time. Whaddya think you'd do? Would you write another song? |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: catspaw49 Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:13 AM I think if you had given it some serious thought you could probably have worked "sand nigger" in there somewhere as well........... Of course it would be better historically speaking if you mentioned that we never did jackshit about Bin Laden but we sure kicked some ass in Iraq!!! So why not get into that instead? I mean shitfire there Bub, since we can't tell one muslim from another......why not? Go for it!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Gary T Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM Previous critiques make some good points, probably especially regarding the ten-foot pole remark. I'm going to go a step further. Please forgive me for being blunt. Everybody and his brother seems to have written a song about 9/11. I know some local songwriters, and many of them did. Song publishers got inundated with submissions. And everyone I talked to or read about felt strongly that their song was really special, and needed to be heard by the world. The main problem, though, is that 99.99% of these songs are crap. They're trite. They're sappy. They don't say anything that everyone doesn't already know. What they do say isn't said in any particularly compelling or engaging fashion. They don't have any significant musical or emotional hook. They don't offer any remarkable insight or grab-you-by-the-heart expression. They're just a variation on someone blabbering at a bar, not having anything to say that makes a difference to anyone, but feeling like they've just got to say it anyway. And say it poorly, at that. While the inebriated say "yeah" and "right on," the sober are thinking "how tedious" and "please deliver me." I'm sorry to say that I see this song as right in there with the ones I just described. Making matters worse, I think the character of the tune is out of step with the feeling of the message. The whole thing strikes me as amateurish and clumsy. I don't see anything there that answers the question in a radio programmer's mind, "Why should I put this on the air?" The criterion needs to be above "it's not that bad." I suggest it should be "it's (at least in some way) great." |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Tim theTwangler Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 AM To compare American conservative politicians to Neanderthals is aactualy a racist slur in itself. To the song at the top it doeasnt scan + what is the tune? I wonder why a a country full of such wonderful individuals as the Americans I have met over there, can be such a pain in the arse to the rest of the planet? Is a case of the whole being less than the sum of its parts. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:39 AM Dear Texas Guest, What is wrong with your song is eral and historical. Had you the good sense to have lived sixty or seventy years ago, your little ditty would have been as popular as "'Round and Around Hitler's Grave" or my favorite, "Hitler Has Only Got One Ball". You're going to think I'm making this up but, once upon a time, Americans supported wars and hated the enemy. It was, once, perfectly appropriate to refer to Krauts, Heinies and Nips. (If I'm lyin', I'm dyin') Your song reflects the anger and fear that were caused by the 9/11 attacks and the reaction you have received is from an aura of political correctness and dispassion. Oh, I guess that your detracters are right about lumping all Arabs in with the fanatics who killed without caring who they were killing. They may be more rational than you about seeing the crowds in Palestine, Iran, Pakistan and Iraq, cheering the deaths of the people trapped in those buildings and the deaths of the brave souls who tried to save them. There are more than a few folks, reading this message, who think that America got what it deserved. Well, maybe, they are right, too. I don't see it that way and nether do you but, hey, we've been wrong before. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Peace Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM Song about 9/11. Listen to "The Bravest". It says lots. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Trevor Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM He isn't serious is he? That first post has just got to be a wind-up. I've just read it again - it must be trolling. But while I'm here, can anybody give me any hints as to why I'm booed off stage and have things thrown at me when I sing a song I wrote recently: I hate women I hate gays I'm going to chase the darkies For the rest of my days. I'm going to get drunk I'm going to kill a fox You can take your left-wing softy social workers And shove 'em up your box. Can't see anything wrong with it myself. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: catspaw49 Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:46 AM Probably just too sugary-sweet for most audiences. Could use some earthiness about it. Like..... I hate bitches I hate fags I'm going to chase them coons Wearing the doo-rags. Gets right down to it like our Guests ditty doesn't it? I mean, tell it like it is!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:59 AM It's (mostly), as previously stated, the content of the last two lines. Question answered. Let's all move on. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM Heh! Very entertaining, I must say. The difference, Fred Miller, is that America's role on WWII was a legitimate response to German and Japanese aggression. (although it is true that FDR had, by trade embargo, basically maneuvered the Japanese into a "surrender to us and give up your empire now or fight the USA and die" position by mid '41...but...the Japanese were still committing major aggression in China and East Asia anyway, so they deserved to get clobbered by someone...) Anyway, WWII was basically legit, and the public knew it. That's why they supported it. My father supported it by fighting for the Allies. He (prior to passing away quite recently) did not support the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He considered them rather in the same light as Germany's land and resource-grabbing wars of aggression in WWII. That tell you anything? The USA was not attacked by any sovereign nation when 911 occurred. They were attacked by a secret organization and its operatives. That was a police matter, not a matter of war between nations. It was a crime, not an act of war. The response to it by the Bush administration has been cynical, opportunistic, self-serving, and totally inappropriate to the real situation. Anyway, they had plans all worked out to attack both Afghanistan and Iraq long before 911. 911 was just the PR excuse to get the American public onside and go ahead. That's why a lot of people don't believe in these wars. They're not legitimate defence at all. Not of anyone. They are outright aggression. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:09 PM The Bravest, as Peace said. Also InOBU's song about Engine 33 - in this post with lyrics from the Mudcat CD Rose. (Scroll down to "Genie 01 Mar 03 - 06:04 AM" if it doesn't load at that post anyway) This doesn't seem to be in the Digital Tradition, so far as I can see, which I think is a pity. It's a pretty good song. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Geordie-Peorgie Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM Back to the "Towels on their heads" for a second!! The turban worn by Sikhs is neat and tidy and a proper article of clothing and as such is part of the dressing procedure as much as a shirt and tie for other cultures Here in the UK we used to refer to 'arabs' as 'Rag-heads' as their head-gear looks like a rag - How rude! The politically correct brigade in UK quite rightly pointed out that the 'rag' on the head was not, in fact, a 'rag' but a 'sheet' So they're sheet-heads Live with it!! |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM Much better to live without it. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM well, it was a dumb song, crudely stated and from a narrow, petty viewpoint. There are so many ways you 'could' have said that 'terrorist behaviour will lose in the end' without being insulting and provincial. It was a head-butt. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: van lingle Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM Hmmm... hard to figure out why that one didn't take off, Texas Guest. Were you wearing an American flag shirt ala Lee Greenwood? |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: dick greenhaus Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:53 PM You know, conservative songs that are overtly political are relatively rare. Which, I suspect, is because people that sing political songs don't usually sing them. Many of them are pretty bad (as are many left-leaning songs), but not all. Okie from Muscogee was pretty well put together; so was Coal Tattoo (hardly a pro-union song). One of the ones that expresses an unpopular opinion well (though I certainly don't agree with what it says) is: Universal Pacifist (Barry Sadler, I believe) He's five foot two and he's six foot four And he fights with marches and with tears He's all of sixty-one and he's just fourteen He's been a pacifist a thousand years He's a Catholic, a Quaker, and Atheist, a Jew A Buddhist or whatever he would be He knows he should be still and he knows he never will He doesn't have the courage to be free And he doesn't love Canada, he doesn't love France He doesn't love the USA He doesn't love the Russians but he helps them all he can He thinks he'll put an end to war that way And he's selling out democracy, he's fighting for the Reds He says that it is for the peace of all He's the one who must decide to surrender to the tide And he never sees the writing on the wall But without him how could Hitler have ever conquered France Without him Caesar would have faced a wall He's the one who sells his soul as the weapon of cold war And without him freedom's armies would not fail He's the universal pacifist, his placards all declare He has no home or love worth fighting for Without him men could all be free and brothers don't you see This is not the way to put an end to war |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: pattyClink Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM People hate preachy songs. So if you're hellbent on writing one, it had better be really really good. The Times They Are A Changing had a memorable tune and fairly poetic lyrics and was addressing people other than those who were listening (thereby rendering it 'subtle' instead of 'let me lecture you, you oaf') That approach and quality were the only reason people tolerated it. Anyway, if you still want to deliver such a message, either send it Western Union as the old joke goes, or sit down and write a human story that gets your point across without the sermon. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Richard Brandenburg Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:29 PM Sign your name to it, Tex... |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Strupag Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:12 AM Hi Dick, That song looks suspiciously like the one that Donavon Leitch wrote as Universal Soldier. Here are the lyrics: - He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four, He fights with missiles and with spears. He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen, Been a soldier for a thousand years. He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain, A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew. And he knows he shouldn't kill, And he knows he always will, Kill you for me my friend and me for you. And he's fighting for Canada, He's fighting for France, He's fighting for the USA, And he's fighting for the Russians, And he's fighting for Japan, And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way. And he's fighting for Democracy, He's fighting for the Reds, He says it's for the peace of all. He's the one who must decide, Who's to live and who's to die, And he never sees the writing on the wall. But without him, How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau? Without him Caesar would have stood alone, He's the one who gives his body As a weapon of the war, And without him all this killing can't go on. He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame, His orders come from far away no more, They come from here and there and you and me, And brothers can't you see, This is not the way we put the end to war. Andy
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:27 AM It reminds me of William Mc gonigle in style, except that Mcgonigle tried to see the best in people and places,Texas guest,s, writing is as poor as Julia A Moore,OR MCgonigle,But aggression and racism replaces sentimentality. you might improve if you based your style more on W Mcgonigle or Julia Moore.Igive it 2 out of ten, definitely a miss. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:03 AM Never saw that parody before Dick! Do you think it was Sadler that did that? Probably trying to get even with the numerous parodies of the Ballad of the GB's.....LOL Spaw |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Mooh Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:49 AM Don't know why it didn't get played? Maybe because you swiped the tune, maybe because your recording of it is weak (could you post it?), maybe because it's overtly offensive to many folks, maybe because it's just one more tired boring reiteration of racist ill-informed sentiment, or maybe because it's just a stupid idea....amply described by others above. Your jingoistic attempt is rejected because it and you are not deserving. Your idea failed and there's no good reason to bring it up again, even here where such things get rehashed all the time, except to exhibit your sour grapes and naivete as a troll. Get over it. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: JedMarum Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:55 AM Come on y'all ... I don;t think this is "trolling" - a lot of folks who wouldn't normally talk 'raghead' sort of language suddenly felt the urge to do so, right after 911. In this song; the rhymes are clever, using a well known, well loved tune is a common folk music practice - but the language expresses anger or should I say rage at the "bad guys" in a way that has unintended consequences; ie the labeling of a class of people as bad guys - and does not focus on the adversaries within that group. Sometimes when a person is wronged, that person simply wants to lash out at the wrong, and the wrong doer with all the gusto of the moment ... sometimes, calmer heads prevail and strong but fair minded actions can be taken. This song is the 'lashing out' sort of response - a not uncommon action from we human beings. By the way, I see nothing conservative about this song. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: JedMarum Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:43 AM I had a different sort of response to 9/11 and wrote a song that, perhaps has a much too subtle message ... but it was inspired none-the-less by 9/11 events - in particular the comments of a young woman whose husband survived the WTC collapse. She had spent the morning fearing the worst and was so grateful for his good fortune, even in the face of such a loss to humankind ... An MP3 of the song is on the jukebox at Myspace. It is called Letter From Lilac Acres. I used a Civil War era backdrop to tell the tale (hence my comment about too subtle a reference). Here're the lyrics: Letter From Lilac Acres 1.) As I write you this letter the lilacs in bloom Color still lingers on the daffodils too And this springtimes as pretty as any Ive known May the Lord keep you safely and deliver you home 2.) Theres a spot on the river down by the millpond Where the boys have been fishing since the first light of dawn How theyve grown since youve seen them these long painful years Now the winter is passing and the summer draws near CHO Ive begged the Lord over and over again To send you home safely to me When so many have fallen, so many good men To hold you again is a blessing indeed Now Im counting the moments til youre home to stay Signed with lover, your Louisa on the thirteenth of May Inst Repeat 2nd verse, CHO out __________________________ I have to add a couple of footnotes: Rick Fielding on autoharp, Don Reed on the lovely fiddle parts and Paul Mills taming us all into an orchestrated performance! |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: JedMarum Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM what happened to my apostrophes?? ''''' |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: open mike Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM the Universal Soldier was by Buffy Sainte-Marie! |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:15 PM Purely formal analysis. I never learn a song purely because of the content. If content is primary, I'd rather read good prose. First I want a good tune. For me, 8th of January is a boring tune. Next I want a good chorus, if there is a chorus. For me, Tex's chorus is not good enough. Very pedestrian. Only after I have vetted and tune and chorus do I get to the lyrics. I personally don't care for derivate songs and parodies and such. Thus, for me Tex's song fails every one of my own personal tests. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM Just what I was about to post, open mike. She sings it far better than Donovan does too, because she gives it a much more intense impact. She's doing a concert in Toronto on Weds, July 12 at Hugh's Room, and one in Parry Sound on July 13. I'll be going to the Parry Sound show, since it's nearer to my place. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Mr Fox Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM What's wrong with this song? It's crap. Next question? |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:24 PM What isn't wrong with this song? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Ernest Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM To answer LH`s question: it doesn`t mention Shatner. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:05 PM Hmm... |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Willie-O Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM Texas Guest (long gone though you seem to be), I don't care for your song but I also don't think it's worthwhile to beat up on you for it. Lets remember, emotions ran high at that time and a lot of people said things in the heat of the moment. Reading it back, though, (just as I have years after I wrote something), don't you realize it just ain't a good song? But it's more than ironic in a historical context, I can understand why the military stations wouldn't play it. It could be seen as a pointed reminder that the military response was COMPLETELY off the mark, whatever you may think of sending the troops into Afghanistan (and I reserved judgment, so grievous was the provocation), the effort was completely wasted in the Tora Bora Hills where they LET BIN LADEN ESCAPE!!!!!! (WTF?) And then went on to a completely loony and unrelated catastrophe in Iraq, while GWB and the Dark Veep tried to pretend there was a connection, because people like you were so in favour of military actions in that general area then they thought they could do anything... Sorry for all your troubles... W-O |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Jim Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:51 AM Mike Miller said,"It was, once, perfectly appropriate to refer to Krauts, Heinies and Nips." Racist terms for "The Enemy", like Gooks during the Vietnam Era and Towelheads or Sand Niggers during the current conflict, are a way of making them seem less than human. I think that this is necessary if your job killing. How easy would it be to kill someone if you thought of them as just another scared kid jsut like you, perhaps who'd been drafted without really understanding why. Much easier if you think of them as Godless devils. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM Yup. That's the sad thing about war. It always involves turning the "other guys" into some kind of stereotyped monsters so you can feel all right about murdering them and smashing up their cities and towns. Wars would be pretty much over if people got to know people in the other countries well enough to call them "friend". And if they actually did get to know them well, that's mostly what would happen. Most people go to war with only a fragmentary understanding of what they are fighting for and why. They get caught up in the larger events around them. Most of them believe what their leaders tell them. They believe there is a real and pressing need to "defend" their own people against an attack...and accordingly, they go out and attack someone else who is suffering from the same set of assumptions. It's unfortunate all the way around. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:50 AM Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Perhaps, I should have said it was acceptable rather than appropriate. I was, indeed, talking about national wartime protocol. Of course, it is easier to kill when the killee is dehumanized. I don't think we could do it if they weren't. The point is, as any combat vet could tell us, when one is being shot at, one shoots back and questioning the ethics of the conflict is not a practical exercise while the bullets are flying. The best we can do is to pick our wars more carefully. Iraq is a stupid war, in that it accomplishes nothing and it merely saps our fighting ability in those areas where we are really threatened. In the best of all possible worlds, war is unknown but Dr. Pangloss was a fictional character and we live in a world, less perfect. Mike |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST,khandu Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM Spaw! You stole that little ditty (the "I hate bitches" song )!! That was one of the most heard songs around Hattiesburg, MS, 1964-65. (there were more words, but propriety demands that I not post them.) Uh, what year were you down here? ken |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM Forget the lyrics - you stole the tune man!!!!!!!!!! Copyright infringement!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:40 PM Actually, I had it more to the tune of "Muskrat Love." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM Pedant's corner: Dr Pangloss (from Candid) was a bit more subtle than that. His point was that we already live in the best of all possible worlds, wars and all. In other words, not a naive optimistic position but depressingly pessimistic one. I rather doubt if hating the enemy actually makes for a more efficient soldier, any more than building up a loathing for nails when trying to hammer them in place would make for a more efficient carpenter. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM "I rather doubt if hating the enemy actually makes for a more efficient soldier" It doesn't, IMO. Interferes with aim and breathing. Training and the best equipment (materiel) makes more efficient soldiers and soldiers more efficient at their job: the main one of which, unfortunately, is to kill. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM Hating the enemy makes it easier to feel willing to kill him. It also contributes to the prevalence of war crimes such as rape, torture, killing and beating of prisoners, and massacring "enemy" civilians. I therefore suggest that instilling hatred of the enemy in soldiers is not a particularly good idea, in fact. It leads to excess, brutality, and waste. Efficiency? That is mostly achieved by good training, plus prior battle experience. I wouldn't think it has much to do with hatred of the enemy at all. It is not necessary to hate anyone in order to be a good soldier, but if you LOVE your land and your people, then you will fight damn hard in their defence....specially when you're standing on your own soil. It has ever been the game of ambitious and unscrupulous politicians to tell soldiers they ARE defending their own land and people when they're fighting on someone else's soil. It's usually not really true, but admittedly there have been some exceptions to that generalization. A few... The War in Iraq is no such exception. Any young American soldier who believes he is defending America by fighting in Iraq has been sadly misled by his leaders. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM Reminds me of the old joke told by Godfrey Cambridge. A man of colour is beseaching God: M: "Lord, why is my skin so dark?" G: "So when you're out in the hot African sun you don't burn your skin." M: "Why are my legs so long?" G: "So when you are chasing after prey you will be able to catch it more quickly." M: "Why is my hair so curly?" G: "So when you are going through the thorn thickets you don't get your scalp scratched." M: "One last question Lord." G: "Yes, what is it?" M: "Lord, what the hell am I doing in Cleveland?" |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM beseeching, sorry. |
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Subject: RE: What's wrong with this song? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM LOL! Ha! Ha! Great one, Peace. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that. Y'know, Chongo wonders about stuff like that all the time too. |
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