BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:48 PM

Yup--all you have to do is take a fearful and/or angry population and tell them who to blame and fear--and therefore attack.

The US after 9-11 fit this definition to a T. And Cheney, particularly, is a worthy successor to Goebbels.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:25 PM

Oh, I'd be all in favor of that...heh! Because they can't come here. Iraq was never any real threat to the USA, and it was asinine for anyone to believe they were.

But, hey, Hitler managed to convince the German public that Poland was a threat and that the Jews were a threat, didn't he? Should it be any surprise that Bush could convince Americans that Saddam was a threat?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:26 AM

Troll asks...

"And finally, what earthly good does it do to blame Bush now? The damage - if it was indeed his fault - is done."

Well, if nothing else, those of us who have been opposing this clown since way before he was president, and predicted many of these awful events could say a big "I told you so", but we're better than that.

Back to the original question:

We are there, and there is a civil war.

If we stay - civil war.

If we leave - civil war.

Why put our kids in the middle of the inevitable.

We've been told we are fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here. What we're doing ain't working. Why not pull out and see if they actually do come here.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

Me up above at 1:14 a.m. ... lost my cookie

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:14 AM

Thanks dianavan .... not harsh at all, I appreciate it ...every nation has the right to self-determination and who could argue the right to live in peace.

I feel the U.S. should pull out .. as you mentioned there are domestic problems at home ... and they require immediate full focused attnetion

The mid ieast is in for a rough violent ride ... an the unrestrained full blown civil war is definately on the horizon (Turkey being one nation that will be propelled to step in) .. regardless of U.S. presence ... this will be overwhelming even if the intention of the U.S. military was to intervene as a peace keeping nation ... with that I feel there is no multinational peace keeping force that can. An undeniable tragedy of humanity.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:42 AM

I don't much like the politics of the Sunnis or the Shiites and there are many people in the Middle East (including Persians, Jews and Kurds) who don't like Arabs at all.

At this point, I think the U.S. should go home and take care of its own domestic problems. They are never going to solve this problem. In fact, at this point, they are just making it worse. I also think Israel should learn to stand on its own two feet and start negotiating with their neighbors.

I don't remember anyone wading into our business when we segregated African Americans or put Aboriginals on reserves. Can you imagine our horror if they had? We would have banded together and turned on the invaders in a minute. All of our differences would have been forgotten. Thats exactly what is happening in the Middle East.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I think every nation has the right to self-determination and I think everyone has the right to live in peace. Unfortunately, some people think they have more rights than others.

Banning the sale and distribution of arms and ammunition would be a good start. Anyone involved in the arms trade should be shot.

I'm fed up and angry. If there was ever a need for a multi-national peace keeping mission, now is the time. Before that can happen, the U.S. needs to cough up their share of the funding.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

I also want input on the consquences (of this civil war) to the rest of the middle east .... if the U.S. pulls out will it spread, or is it going to spread regardless.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:00 AM

Ebbie .... thank you for point 2 .

Anyone else have any opinions ... forget about Israel in this thread ...please ... there are enough of those threads floating around here in the Cat right now, plus I think Americans should be focusing on the mess they created in in occupying Iraq ..... should the U.S. pull out and quit the occupation now .... forget about stating they shouldn't have got in there in the first place, that is quite obvious bin itself ... should they pull out now .... should they stay and try to intervene with the civil war now reaking havoc ... do they have a moral responsibility?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:18 PM

Troll--

In my opinion Israel has every right and justification to try to disarm Hezbollah.

But that's not the point. As was said about another issue (can't recall the context), this current campaign, which is a reaction to continuing and increasing provocations, is not just criminal ( in loss of life)--it's stupid. It will not get the job done.

2 possibilities that would:

1) A ground war and permanent Israeli re-occupation of southern Lebanon. This Israel has ruled out--for good reason. But a temporary ground war will be just that--temporary--with temporary results--and, as I said earlier, untold "martyrs".

2) By far the better approach, as I said, is to have the UN station a heavily armed force on the border--not the current token force.



Re: Bush:

It makes no difference if Hezbollah has been around for decades, which it has. My point is that its strong position WITHIN the Lebanese government is a very recent development--last year---and due in large part to Bush's Iraq war-- (since the US presence made the Iraq, Syria, Hezbollah progression very plausible to many Lebanese, especially Shiites.)   In the 2005 elections Hezbollah and a few allied parties got the maximum number of seats allocated Shiites in Lebanon's religiously apportioned government. Hezbollah's social service network was of course the other main source of its electoral strength.

Any argument?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

Two thoughts repeat themselves in my mind:

1) Israel has a right to exist. (So does Palestine.) What I'd like Israel to consider is just how well its tactics have worked. Sounds an awful lot like making war on TERROR. It just ain't possible to win.

2) If we leave Iraq now, there will be civil war. If we stay, there will be civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

I'm half Jewish & all American & I'll call it as I see it!

By that, I assume you mean that you had one parent who was Jewish and one that wasn't. While that may be, no one is half-Jewish. You are either Jewish, or you're not.

Under the traditional Jewish law followed by Orthodox and Conservative Jews, you are Jewish if your mother was Jewish. If your father was Jewish, but not your mother, you would have to undergo a conversion ceremony to be considered Jewish.

Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism recognize the children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers as Jewish if they identify themselves as Jewish. They don't recognize half Jews.

When I hear someone describe themselves as half Jewish, I wonder if they celebrate Hanukah for four days and Christmas only from noon util midnight.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:50 PM

I think all people call it as they see it.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

Both parties have made their cross border sorties into a game for some time now, a tit for tat sort of way. So Israel wants to change their game plan & plan it so the fault falls some where other than upon them selves, good strategic move on their part & great timing, but it's doesn't hold up under close examination. Plans do change but not as innocently as this.

The US will back any excuse from Israel because it has no choice. We want them there & need them if we're to keep a foot hold in the Mid-East. With their neighborhood policy they wouldn't last very long without the US backing their every play. The surrounding nations would join hands & give the land back to the Palestinians. The US couldn't let that happen with one foot in Iraq, one foot in Israel & one hand reaching for Iran while the other hand is reaching for Syria & all the while an eye is looking at the surrounding nations of Lebanon, Jordan & all others in the region that could become their Democracies. By the way the Marines are now in Lebanon to help with the evacuation of US citizens, keep an eye on this situation, it could become a chance to put into play an international incident.

If England (during the Irish Troubles) had bombed the civilian population of the Irish Republic because a few soldiers were taken hostage the world would've been in an uproar, the world should be in an uproar during this present day siege! We used just as poor an excuse to enter into Iraq as Israel's using today!

I'm half Jewish & all American & I'll call it as I see it!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

Donuel, no, it's not. You may not have seen just how hateful your thread became. Visit the Help Forum and get the whole thread from Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM

This thread is as anti Armerican as the other tread was anti Semetic, which is to say, just harmless speculation that a nuclear power would disband rather than start a wide spread nuclear war.

The perpetrator of a wide spread nuclear war is the ultimate suicide bomber.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:44 AM

Arafat made clear that the PLO would not be happy until all Jews were dead. Hezbollah has the same philosophy it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM

Ron, what wopuld you say would justify a reaction like Israels. There have been almost constant rocket attacks from Gaza since the IDF pulled out. Is that provocation enough? Is an incursion which kills several soldiers and kidnaps others not provocation enough?

When does a nation decide that enough is enough? Where does a nation draw the line?

And finally, what earthly good does it do to blame Bush now? The damage - if it was indeed his fault - is done.
Hezbollah was founded long before Bush came upon the national scene and it is my understanding that the destruction of Israel has always been an integral part of it's charter.

I'm sure that if I'm wrong factually, someone will pounce on it like a duck on a june bug.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself and its borders.

But they should use some sense about how they do it.

This campaign shows very little sense--just a reaction to exasperation carried too far.

They are very likely to topple the Lebanese government, (one of Mr. Bush's prize " "young democracies"), cause a renewed civil war in Lebanon (probably the most pro-US government in the area up to now),---and still not be able to stamp out Hezbollah as an armed force---while creating untold "martyrs"--and stoking anti-Semitism all over the world.

There's gotta be a better way--and there is---a heavily armed UN force--not the current token force--stationed on the border.


I was just pointing out that Israel has Mr Bush to thank, in large part, for the strong position Hezbollah now has in the Lebanese government. The Iraq war has been a wonderful recruiting device for radical Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Troll
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:41 PM

I know that Hezbolla has won seats in the Lebanese government. Are those representatives from all over Lebanon or just from the South, where their main concentration is.

Because if it is just in the South, could it not be possible that they were elected because some people were scared to vote (or run) against their candidates?

Remember, the 800lb. gorilla sleeps where he damn well pleases.

Ron, do you believe that Israel has the right to exist as a nation and to defend its borders?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM

What I find interesting, as I mentioned in another thread, is that one of the big reasons for Hezbollah's popularity in Lebanon (besides their extensive social benefits network), is that they were able--very convincingly--to make the pitch that the US has a plan for the Mideast--first Iraq, then Syria, then Hezbollah.

"And we must resist".

And it's pretty obvious who the US proxy in the Mideast is.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:52 PM

Okay, the Repubs call it "cut 'n run"...

But, yeah, what's gonna happen if the US packs up and leaves???...

Exactly what many of us tried to tell the knot-head warmongers here who wer bored with the Afganistan occupation: civil war...

Might of fact it is very much underway...

So why get caught in the crossfire???

The only stupider thing than going into Iraq in the fiast place is...

...stayin' there...

Get the heck out...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:46 PM

Yeah, but we gotta use canoes to GET there.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:44 PM

No, Peace, I want to invade Mexico!

I would love to see the U.S. caught in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:05 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

OK, I'm all frigged up now. Is Canada a superpower or not? And does it mean we can invade somewhere and shit like that? I am willing to be the CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) for the Canadian incvasion of, uh, HAWAII. I really hope that will be Ok with our US neighbours, because I am hoping that I can do the preliminary work for the invasion when it's minus 40 here in Alberta. Do you think United will take Air Miles, (if I don't actually TELL them it's for the invasion)?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

SO---did we get the laugh you mentioned? Hope so!   James Gordon and his music have more insights and wit than much and many on this venue.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:08 AM

LH, I am surprised at you. "To Decimate" a set of persons means to kill one in ten of them. Decimation was a punishment for a cohort in a Roman legion that failed adequately to perform.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:37 AM

We will not leave, we want to be 'THE' presence in the Mid-East. We have Israel & will protect it, side with it & excuse it no matter what. We want some one to control Lebanon who bows to us & we'll have the same from Syria & eventually from Iran & Afghanistan (N.Korea won't matter a bit by then, & they don't even know it) but we will have to deal with China we're far to late on that front. We have nothing to fear from Pakiatan, Turkey, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt & Saudi Arabia or the rest of northern Africa nor from India or any other nations bording the Indian Ocean. We have no need to fear except for the whole grab blowing up in our own face. Look at a map & see how well that puts us for controling the 7 seas. The Mediterranean Sea, Black Sea, Red Sea, Caspian Sea, Arabian Sea, Gulf of Persia. The way to these bodies of water & a grand land grab is through Beirut, Damascus & Tehran. Prepare for a blood bath, we won't be leaving to soon as long as these flesh eaters are the ruling powers.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

He probably calls Blair Sh^t Head.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:19 AM

True to form.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:17 AM

I think Peace and Bill Hahn are pretty desperate for a good laugh.

Of course Harper is another Toadie but he likes to think he is one of the boys. I'm sure that when their backs are turned, Bush laughs at both Harper and Blair. He even calls Stephen Harper, Steve, which is a way to diminish him and put him in his place. I wonder what he calls Blair?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

Damn. D'van, I was hoping there for a sec. And yes, Harper is a hemorrhoid in the--let me rephrase that. He is not the person I voted for in the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:07 AM

Harper is just another one of Bush's Toadies, smaller in rank than Blair of course ... but still he is one of the boys. Thanks again to the Americans ... meddling and manipulating in ther nation's affairs for their own agendas.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:04 AM

Heh, hold on a minute. I only jockingly called Canada a super-power because thats what Harper thinks now that he is hob-nobbing with Bush and Blair. Canadians do not even want to be a super power but we have this PM that wants closer ties to the U.S.

Politically, Harper has as much diplomacy as Bush. They have the same handlers. They are both Christian Fundamentalists. Harper is a Conservative. Basically they are cut from the same cloth. When I say super-power, I mean that in a collective sense. Britain, the U.S., Israel and Canada seem to all be on the same page politically.

Collectively (as allies) that makes them a super-power in my book.

Please don't tell Canadians, they are not power mongers. Its just that they have this ass-hole running the country which puts us in the same league as the U.S., Britain and Israel.

No, Harper is not at powerful. He's a wannabe.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:11 PM

"WHAT IF what a big sentence that means nothing."

... that is true Cobble ... that is right on the mark.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:09 PM

Good posts Bill ... I especially have to thank you for this line ...
.. "To digress---what a sad sight to see him with a mouth full of food talking to Tony Blair using his expletives---like a good ole boy would. Can you picture FDR, HST, even LBJ that gross (in public)---not even slick Willie." ... yes, even LBJ couldn't come off as so gross.

As my wife mentioned ... it was disgustingly crude ... munchin away and referring to the current crisis as a sh^t.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:04 PM

I love that note---Peace. Do you happen to know of James Gordon and is music?   One of his pieces---We're Canadians and We're Sorry. Also---In the Middle\

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

Hey, do NOT FU#K WITH CANADA. We don't take shit from no one anymore.

Hell, I gotta e-mail my friends and let 'em know. Do you think it would be OK to do that?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

Who is the first person to whom I can pass this information ---CANADA SUPER POWER. WOW!!!   I bet the Canadians are impressed---eh!   NIce thinking---would it were true we might be better off

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM

Please tell the REST of the world that Canada is a super-power.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Cobble
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

WHAT IF what a big sentence that means nothing.

               Cobble

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:41 PM

Do you honestly believe that profit is Israel's goal?   Oil for the U S ---I agree.   Canada, Israel being superpowers---Dianavan---you cannot be serious. Followers of US influence---perhaps. Israel had another agenda, to me---protection from extremists

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:34 PM

. . . and France, China, Russia, Germany, Switzerland . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:33 PM

Actually, I think what is happening in Gaza is just an extension of what is happening in Iraq. If the U.N. doesn't step in soon, Syria and Iran will also be involved. Its the same players and it really doesn't have anything to do with religion. Its simply a matter of domination in the new world order of multi-national corporations.

These are not separate situations. Israel, Britain, the U.S. and Canada are the super-powers but seem to have absolutely no ability to secure peace in the Middle East. In fact, I would go so far as to say they do not want peace. They want war because war is much more profitable.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:07 PM

I agree, number 6. We shouldn't allow what's going on in Labanon and Gaza to cause us to forget about what the US government is doing in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM

It might be a good thing????

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

The history of Canada did involve a battle between the French, the English, and a variety of Indian nations who took sides with one or the other. It was resolved by the fact that the French lost and the home country of France couldn't do much about it at the time. The culture of French and English was similar enough that it didn't prove too difficult to establish a working situation where the French minority could peacefully coexist. As for the Indians, well, they lost out...mainly because European diseases so decimated the tribes that their strength to resist was broken. There were tribes where up to 98% of the people died from smallpox in a matter of a few weeks, leaving empty villages full of rotting bodies. Literally millions of Native Americans died as smallpox and other diseases swept across the Americas during the early settlement period. The white people basically moved into the vacuum that the pandemic created.

I think what you have in Iraq is a far less workable situation than the French-English divide in Canada....but...I'm not saying it would be impossible to establish a working partnership between Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis. Just damn difficult. Tito managed a similar confederation between disparate nations in Yugoslavia...and it held until his death. Then it fell apart.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

Little Hawk makes a valid point re: Iraq. Nations and history are a flow---like water going down a stream. The land changes over the years. For better or worse.

I think another question is more pertinent than "what if we left"---should we be there in the first place.   We have created our own quagmire built on a lie by ---as John Prine says in song--"...by some cowboy from Texas who starts a war in Iraq". NOw we are paying the price.

Like Israel---leave an area (Gaza) and all hell breaks loose by all the people jockeying for their piece of power. Saddam was a horror---but not our problem.    We surely did not do much in other areas where genocide goes on---and have no oil. So---it is hypocrisy to say things like---building democracy because we want the area to be a better place (that is after the inanity of the WMDs, the 9/11 involvement by Saddam, etc;)

One has to say that this administration has pretty well ruined any decent international relations and foreign policy situations that have been created over many years----or as Maureen Dowd so well states today in the NYT---to W this is one big keg party.

To digress---what a sad sight to see him with a mouth full of food talking to Tony Blair using his expletives---like a good ole boy would. Can you picture FDR, HST, even LBJ that gross (in public)---not even slick Willie.   They have and had class that represented us in a positive light. We have the head of the frat house now and his food fights involve weaponry.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

bloody civil war they already have that in Iraq, now...just listen to NYT's reporter, Dexter Filkins, as he relates his personal experiences on yesterday's Fresh Air on NPR:

New York Times reporter Dexter Filkins has been covering the war in Iraq and is back for a brief visit to the United States. Filkins updates us on the situation in the Middle East. Last year, he received the George Polk Award for War Reporting for his riveting, firsthand account of an eight-day attack on Iraqi insurgents in Falluja.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the U.S. packed up and left
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:52 PM

"Iraq was never a natural country. It was established by the British drawing some geometrical lines across a region occupied by three separate cultural groups who don't like each other very much."

Sounds like how Canada was formed :| .... 3 seperate cultural groups (not liking each other very much) being Americans, British, and French.

We too are not a 'natural' country ... whatever a natural country is.

Are we a natural world ... now there's a thought.

sIx