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Religious Correctness gone mad?
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Subject: RC gone mad? From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:01 AM Well, C of E anyway... but it shows that Religious Correctness can come up with decisions as daft as any melanin- deprived Politically Correct council bureaucrat.. Kids banned from singing 'Imagine' |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: manitas_at_work Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM Could you redo that link? |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM Oops |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:42 AM This is the counter revolution and the return to the dark ages. If those of us opposed to going backwards don't do something we're all doomed! DOOMED! Remember, these faith schools have been supported and encouraged by a LABOUR govt. My old man would spin in his grave if he knew his beloved Party had come to this. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:55 AM They often aren't faith schools as such- for historical reasons, C of E schools are often the only school in smaller communities, and as such ought to serve the whole community, not just their own religious sect. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Mooh Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:50 AM Being raised (and still attending) Anglican I'm inclined to be a bit defensive. Can't stand the tune to start with so I wouldn't break my heart to never hear it again...in spite of its peace message...but it IS counter religious and it's not a good match for the school. Big deal, there are lots of other songs, and Imagine shouldn't be elevated above any other. Hell, my parish once didn't like Onward Christian Soldiers because of the military imagery, but now it's back because the metaphor is understood by whoever chooses the hymns. Tempest in the teapot, or beerkeg, depending on the school. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Mr Fox Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM No loss. The song is sanctimonious, precious, pretentious crap. With a dirge of a tune. And the thought of somebody as rich as Lennon writing "imagine no possesions, I wonder if YOU can" is enough to induce projectile vomiting and make one cheer for Mark David Chapman. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: folk1e Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:38 AM Anything that causes somone to quetion "why" can't be bad! If an institution is in favour of censor then it must be prepaired to submit TO censor!.......... unles of course they know better? |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: NormanD Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM Mr Fox's exaggerated comment in support of Lennon's murderer is unnecessary, whatever you think of the song. Lennon may have been financially loaded but, politically, he was part of the "utopian" school - he advocated social changes but didn't necessarily think through the consequences of how they might affect him personally. So, don't knock him for writing a song, or support his murder because you don't like it. That's an inhumane reaction, and uncalled for. Enough songs have been written by people whose personal lives have been the complete opposite of their romantic lyrics. "Imagine" was adopted by the Tories as one of their party conference theme tunes, I remember (this was Thatcher-era too). Far more damaging, and hypocritical, than kids not being allowed to sing it. And, in the last year or so, a group of US school students was banned from singing Dylan's "Masters of War" (I'll find the reference if anyone's interested). Norman |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: leeneia Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:03 AM In my view, they thought for themselves and did what they thought was right. They didn't hurt anybody in the process. Good for them. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Mr Fox Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:59 AM Hmmm. Maybe my comment about Mark Chapman was a little over the top. It's this hot weather - makes me irritable. Apologies to anyone I offended. But I DO detest being lectured by people who say "don't do as I do, do as I say" - it smacks of the very totalitarianism Lennon was allegedly against. And I still think the tune is a dirge. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM Reminds me a bit of She's a Latin fron Manhattan! It's too dirgy for the clergy! |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Scoville Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM THe high school class in front of mine (1995) tried to vote it for "class song" but it was blocked because it was "Communist". Ha ha. THen, they tried to vote in "the Joker", which was banned because of its drug references. After that, the administration picked something lame and told them to just deal with it. I don't really see how this is news, actually. I'm not religious but I think it's up to each denomination and congregation to decide what they think is appropriate for themselves. We probably wouldn't teach our Quaker kids "Onward Christian Soldiers". It's not evil (I reserve comment on its musical and lyrical merits), it just doesn't speak to our condition. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Les from Hull Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM I suppose that: The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, He made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate. is still alright though? |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:33 PM Tempest in a teapot |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Les from Hull Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:48 PM 'The school has close links with the nearby St Leonards Church whose rector, the Rev David Harris, is also a school governor. He said: "The song expresses longing for a different world and for eternal happiness but it says you can have this without religion."' Wow, and religion has such a track record of bringing about a different, happy world! |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Rasener Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM Well I like Imagine, its one of my favourite Lennon songs. Can anybody really prove there is a heaven and hell? I think not. I am a confirmed C of E who left the church and never went back from the age of 16. I am now 61. I left because I couldn't stand all the crap that was being pumped into my head without a scrap of evidence. What was even worse was all these do goodie people who made me squirm. I have always believed in morality, without religion. My daughters were not baptised, but have learnt morality and are the better for it. Churches are a big big turn off for me. I object to these do gooders strangling the life out of everybody, just to satisfy there religious opinions. IMHO there are more crimes of the world caused by religion. Just look at the state of the world today, how much of the problems are caused by religion? |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:16 PM The decsion seems quite reasonable for a C of E school to take. The song is at odds with Christian teaching. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM Given that all state schools are now (rightly) required to educate children with reference to the other religions, as well as Christianity, why should the agnostic or the atheist POV be subjected to discrimination? I'm not sure that this school is operating within government requirements in banning this song for the stated reasons. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM The reason that Christian countries by and large have ruled the roost is that the religion has evolved. we don't do all the daft things that you can find a sanction for in the bible, if you're daft enough personally to want to exact an eye for an eye, burn witches, etc. Anybody who would ban the song Imagine because it doesn't conform to chocolate box version of Christianity, with heaven upstairs and satan waiting to pounce in the cellar, is a fundamentalist in the worst sense of the word. The really difficult commandments and teachings of the The sermon on the Mount has gone over their heads completely. And for a moment it has over mine, ('judge not, less you be judged') - so I'd best shut up. all the best to all al |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:29 PM Most organised religions are bad things |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM The cheering thing is that all these bans tell us that songs can be influential, therefore worth writing and singing. Keep right on... |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: John O'L Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM Now, if we can just get 'Jealous Guy' banned as well... |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST,Lanfranc sans cookie Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:43 PM I'm not surprised that "Imagine" was banned, but more surprised that anyone actually bothered to attempt to understand the lyrics. This from a church that happily sings of "jet planes waiting in the sky to be refuelled" ("Autumn Days") without wondering what such planes might be carrying in the way of weaponry. Gave up on religion in general and CofE in particular for many reasons, mostly to do with the degrading of the language used in services and the politically correct changes made to well-known hymns and carols. Imagine no religion? Oh, please, don't just imagine, make it so!!! "In two thousand years he's brought nothing but tears and the crosses to plant on the graves" Harvey Andrews "Requiem". Alan |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: Mooh Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:04 AM Church school bans Lennon classic The school said it was "not appropriate" to sing the song A church school in Devon has withdrawn John Lennon's Imagine from an end-of-term show after teachers ruled that its lyrics were anti-religious. Pupils at St Leonards Primary in Exeter, Devon, had spent weeks rehearsing the song. But it was taken out of the running order after the head teacher and governors decided it was anti-Christian and unsuitable for the school. The lyrics include: "Imagine there's no heaven... and no religion too." Head teacher Geoff Williams said a teacher approached him because she did not think the song was appropriate. He said: "The teacher came to talk to me about it because she was concerned and I supported her. "As a church school we decided it was not appropriate to sing it." The school has close links with the nearby St Leonards Church whose rector, the Rev David Harris, is also a school governor. He said: "The song expresses longing for a different world and for eternal happiness but it says you can have this without religion." The annual song festival at the school was held last week on the theme of Songs for a Green Earth and Imagine was replaced by The Building Song. Steve Bailey, who manages the Beatles Shop in Liverpool, said: "I am not surprised this song is still controversial. "I do not know if the song is suitable for children from a church school. "It does have an optimistic message which is crucial in its own way." Well, whatever...I'm not sure the headline reflects what the text describes. It seems to me that they (teachers, and govenors) decided not to use a particular song for legitimate reasons in the context of the event. Banned, withdrawn, not appropriate, [not] suitable...might have the same effect for the sake of the event, but I bet it's not actually banned and that there will be continuing discussion between and among staff and students about the song. Nothing here truly suggests that the students are to be kept ignorant of the song (really, as if!), just that it didn't suit the event. Again, big deal, it wouldn't have made the news except that someone thinks it's an issue. If it hadn't been suggested originally, nobody would be suggesting that it should be. Someone who apparently didn't get the meaning of the song to start with, allowed it to be rehearsed for the event by primary students...that's the daft part. There are lots of better songs for such a time, maybe starting with the Iona Community's various song books. As for the reasoning, all the subsequent good intent of the lyric will be eclipsed by the first line "imagine there's no heaven". Few, if any, Christians would accept this command at a Christian event. Imagine what parents (if they were invited) watching the event might think, especially if they're less open minded than, say, the good folk of County Mudcat. This isn't new, or news, neither is it a scandal. Peace, (with or without religion, organized or otherwise), Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: John O'L Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM I googled 'The Building Song' so I could make a comparison with 'Imagine'. I came up with the following: Working on a Building By The Cowboy Junkies (Ironically from the album "The Trinity Sessions") Working on a building, a Holy Ghost building For my Lord, for my Lord If I was a drunkard I tell you what I'd do I would quit my drinking and work on that building too Working on a building, a Holy Ghost building For my Lord, yeah for my Lord If I was a liar I tell you what I'd do I would quit my lying and work on that building too Working on a building, it's a Holy Ghost building For my Lord, yeah for my Lord Working on a building, it's a Holy Ghost building For my Lord, yeah for my Lord If I was a singer I tell you what I'd do I would keep on singing and work on that building too I doubt if the kiddies will be singing that particular building song come end-of-term. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST,Hrothgar Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM I'm just mildly surprised that anybody was obtuse enoygh to select it for the programme in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:09 AM The problem is that the STATE school that serves our area is Church of England. Parents of all persuasions have to get their kids in.It should therefore acknowledge all the differences of opinion in the area from Fundamentalist to Unbeliever. Children should then be able to make up their own minds. By censoring, you are indoctrinating, and in a state school serving all, this is the thin end of the wedge. |
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Subject: RE: RC gone mad? From: BuckMulligan Date: 21 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM What wedge, GUEST 7:09? I may well be suffering from Yankee ignorance, but isn't the C of E an established church? Doesn't the UK lack a concept of "separation of church & state?" Therefore there's nothing in the least wrong with a state agency of any kind endorsing the established church. Whether "others" need to be catered to, and to what degree, is certainly something that should be taken into account, but barring disestablishment, I don't see why having the C of E school be the state-offered public education is the least bit problematic. Then again, it isn't my problem to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:20 PM I like "Imagine" and enjoy singing it in some contexts, but I wouldn't do it in a public performance in a religious school. I'd do it in a classroom as a springboard for discussion, but not in a school assembly or in a performance for parents or the public. I also like "Onward Christian Soldiers" because it's an interesting song - but I wouldn't choose it for a religious service because I think religions need to get away from the imagery of warfare. Religions fight too damn much, even though most of them profess to believe in peace. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Big Phil Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:27 PM Back to the question, "Religious Correctness gone mad" YES |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Stewart Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM Francis Crick (discoverer of the genetic code) deeply disliked religion, saying once that Christianity was all right between consenting adults but should not be taught to children. Good advice. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Amos Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM Crick was also an adamant materialist with no sense of the human spirit whatsoever. A |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Peace Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:59 PM James Watson, Francis Crick, Maurice Wilkins, and Rosalind Franklin. They ALL deserve credit for the 'discovery'. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Stewart Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM Amos: So? I just liked the quote. Peace: Granted, JW, FC, MW, RF together were responsible for determining the double helix structure of DNA. Francis Crick discovered how the sequence of bases in DNA coded for sequences of amino acids in proteins - i.e. the "genetic code." Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at work Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM Yeah, but my point is, IS is really "religious correctness," or could it be that we're not hearing the whole story and that the person who withdrew the song from the program is not a total idiot? Maybe it's worthwhile posting the article, since it's about music and it isn't too long:
A church school in Devon has withdrawn John Lennon's Imagine from an end-of-term show after teachers ruled that its lyrics were anti-religious. Pupils at St Leonards Primary in Exeter, Devon, had spent weeks rehearsing the song. But it was taken out of the running order after the head teacher and governors decided it was anti-Christian and unsuitable for the school. The lyrics include: "Imagine there's no heaven... and no religion too." Head teacher Geoff Williams said a teacher approached him because she did not think the song was appropriate. He said: "The teacher came to talk to me about it because she was concerned and I supported her. "As a church school we decided it was not appropriate to sing it." The school has close links with the nearby St Leonards Church whose rector, the Rev David Harris, is also a school governor. He said: "The song expresses longing for a different world and for eternal happiness but it says you can have this without religion." The annual song festival at the school was held last week on the theme of Songs for a Green Earth and Imagine was replaced by The Building Song. Steve Bailey, who manages the Beatles Shop in Liverpool, said: "I am not surprised this song is still controversial. "I do not know if the song is suitable for children from a church school. "It does have an optimistic message which is crucial in its own way." If I were the headmaster, I think I might choose another song - for NEXT year's show. If the choice has been made and the singers have been practicing for weeks, it's too late to change for THIS year. He sure got himself into a mess this time. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Mo the caller Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM We seem to be confusing two questions here. 1.Religious Correctness gone mad? to avoid singing an atheist song at a faith school concert? Of course not. 2. Should faith schools be encouraged, and partly funded by the State? IMO no. Though I don't think people should be prevented from educating their children in as they believe is right. I think the American idea of not teaching religion in schools is good, but our UK education system was started by the churches, so it is hard to change. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 06 - 09:29 PM If the school is serving the whole community it should respect anti-Christianism too and let its have its voice. Educate the children in all things and let them decide. Isn't that how it should be? |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM
I got my education at private Catholic schools in the U.S. No, they didn't teach anti-Catholicism, but they did teach us to respect and learn from a broad spectrum of non-Catholic perspectives. In many ways I felt my Catholic education allowed me to explore far more than I could have in a public school. Since we didn't have special interests saying "don't teach this" or "Don't say that," we could follow where our interests led us. We were taught "critical thinking," including how to think critically about what the Catholics have to say. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Slag Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:16 AM The fact that some psychotic little twit off'd Lennon has nothing to do with Lennon's philosophy or the content of his songs. Chapman's motivation doesn't even qualify Lennon as a martyr, just a victim. I can understand a religious organization banning (if that is the correct word) certain songs due to anti-religious content. Would you tolerate all four verses of "Bringing in the Sheaves" down at the local pub? Probably not. It's kinda like the right to associate. Why try to make an issue of this? Unless you are anti-relgious? As for reasonablilty, most any group has a lot of followers who are content to let some one else do their thinking for them. This is the mainstay of most political parties and it can be gauged by the number of slogans used as opposed to real ideas. Theology and philosophy have long been bedfellows and religious thought has shaped the human mind for millenia. Our very language and thought patterns are steeped in it. You can't escape it. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:33 AM Unfortunately! |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:52 AM "The meek shall inherit the earth" . Show me on f**king meek man who inherited anything. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM "Well, I don't think I'd see the value in educationg kids in "anti-Christianism." How about teaching about alternatives to Christianity, and not be anti-anything?" That's exactly how state (C of E) primary schools in the UK ARE supposed to be operating, Joe. The current GOVERNMENT ruling is that state schools teach comparative religion, and the school that I have worked in for fifteen years past taught about Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism, as well as Christianity, much to the disgust, I might add, of the less tolerant parents. I see no reason, therefore, to try to hide from pupils the fact that some people live good, moral lives without subscribing to any of the above. Discrimination is either wrong, or it is not. It cannot be wrong in one istance, and right in another, according to the prejudices of the person in charge. For this reason, I think this case IS important, and bear in mind that the school is arguably breaking government rules by its action. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Abby Sale Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:11 AM Jon says "The decsion seems quite reasonable for a C of E school to take. The song is at odds with Christian teaching." And that's the truth. It shows the essential problem with having an Established religion as in all of the UK. It's law. It's the Official Religion. Schools are not expected to be "fair" in this (although as stated above, they've greatly liberalized over the past few decades), they are expected to be parochial schools that happen to be supported by the state. I gather that Scotland has much eased up on this in practice. We never much held with parochial schools but on entering our child in primary school in Scotland in 1975, we found she would be forced to recite Christian prayer and sing Christian songs and take Christian holidays and would not be excused for Jewish High Holy Days. We would up placing her in a Jewish school. Thue, the state schools (as opposed to the church ones) didn't spend much time teaching religion but they didn't have to - a C of S "atmosphere" was rampant. I believe that even the most benign Established Religion (and I know that it is pretty benign in the UK)) is patently unfair. What non-subscribing Brit or non-established-but-observant Brit (eg, Free Kirk or Baptist) could be comfortable with suppurting (or not) his own church and also paying for C of E/S through his/her taxes? |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM I had to sing "All things bright and beautiful" at school, which pissed me off, as I'm not a Creationist. (Actually all the hymns pissed me off, as I'm an atheist. But hey, I was educated in N. Ireland so we got 14 compulsory years of Christianity forced down our throats whether we believed it or not. I'm all for education ABOUT religion, but not IN religion.) Oh, and I totally agree that Imagine is a pretentious pile of crap. "I'm off to see the Bootleg Beatles/As the bootleg Mark Chapman" (Half Man, Half Biscuit) "The meek ain't gonna inherit shit" (Alabama 3) |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: fat B****rd Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM "....those who are not meek but will inherit the earth all the same" Richard Farina. Just thought I'd join in. Doesn't bother me wether or not the children sing Imagine. I've found it a dirge from the first time I heard it. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Bunnahabhain Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:35 PM It's about now somebody starts moaning all the good hymn tunes are stolen folk melodies..... Accordsing to the reporting, the kids had spent weeks practicing it before it was pulled, so it's not as if they're not aware of it. I can't see a problem with the school removing it from a concert, if it doesn't feel right for the spirirt the school is trying to convey. It's not as if they're burning the manuscripts.... Also the school is in Exeter, not the middle of nowhere. Parents will have the choice the send their children elsewhere if they object to the decisions being taken at the school. |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 22 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM Teaching comparitive religion to the children is a far different matter to encouraging them to sing a song advocating doing away with religion. It is good to see a head teacher of a Church School prepared to set a standard, and getting the support of the local clergy. CHEERS Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: BuckMulligan Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM Excellent point Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Religious Correctness gone mad? From: BuckMulligan Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM Mercifully, "typing" is not part of "language." Or I'd truly be "up shit's creek." |
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