BS: Modern day vigilantes

Subject: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Attached is an article concerning an incident on the southern coast of New Brunswick (Canada) that you might find interesting..

Grand Manan Vigilantes

I should point out that these people on Grand Manan are slow to anger ... when you have had enough, you've had enough ... these fisherman get fines far more severe for taking 'undersize' lobster than the drug pushers for selling hard drugs to kids.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

6 I'm with you, we need to do something & we need to do it NOW
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:20 PM

More info on the incident ...

Grand Manan vigilantes

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:04 PM

Didn't gnu already post something about this???

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:19 PM

my apologies if he did ... haven't seen it myself.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

Here it was sIx, didn't get too many hits.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

thanks Bobad ... then merge this with gnu's ... anway, it's BIG news here in N.B.

again my apologies to gnu

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:54 PM

It's a tough call whether this is a good or bad thing.

On the one hand, if the local RCMP were apprised of the situation and failed to act, then you can understand the locals' frustration and the taking of matters into their own hands, after all it's their own children being corrupted.

On the other hand vigilante justice can make mistakes.

The worst aspect of this, as I see it, is that it provides the Stephen Harper government with ammunition to further their right wing law-and-order agenda; get tough on cime, more prisons, tougher sentences etc. A strategy which, as we see in the US, does absolutely nothing to reduce crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:11 PM

I can understand people's frustration, but I would point out that the vigilante groups in the US back in the 19th Century existed only until such time as courts and law enforcement became organized and effective. I'm not talking about lynchings in the South, but vigilantism is the West, especially in the mines of Idaho and Montana.

Often a low-level crook was given warning and then banished. Trial were actually held and some of the accused were acquited.

But why were the RCMP and the provincial police sitting on their hands?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:02 PM

Kickbacks? Bribery? You hate to think if of any law enforcement agency but we know it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM

I live in a place that has many methamphetamine [meth] labs. Meth use is a problem in the town. The police have some difficulties. True story with names changed.

Guy who deals was well known to police and anyone who frequented a few of the bars in town. It took the police over a year and a half to build a case against him. His lab was busted as was he. At the time he was in possession of meth for the purpose of trafficking. He was also in possession of a pistol for which he had no permit.

It is likely that he was personally responsible for getting more than thirty kids onto meth (and for those who may not be aware, meth is one of the more addicting drugs on the planet). The B and E rate rose as did violence amongst the younger kids. Long story short, a damned judge gave the guy a reaaly heavy sentence: that piece of shit was out of jail in three months. Instances like that make people begin to think of taking law into their own hands. Justifiably, IMO.

I could give you many other similar stories. But, at the end of the day, it seems to boil down to this: If the penalties for dealing addicting drugs are minor, then the dealer is back on the streets real quick. It gets people angry. FWIW.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST,jack91x
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:04 PM

i used to be in the us army infantry, and when i got out, i came home to find that the past 5 years changed things a lot. theres a lot of crime, something i didnt see in my rural resort area.generallly, the only crimes were dui and possession of marijuana. now, the ski resorts have given way to a new casino- and the poconos headed downhill, quick. i have asked the local law enforcement, but theres not enough of them, and they dont have the resources to deal with a mob incursion. i was wandering if vigilante action is the right choice- i spent the last 5 years specializing in combat, i think i could get the job done.im just not sure if its the right thing to do,or the proper way to do it. should i take a couple of my old battlebuddies and go make citizens arrests, or do i go in boondock saints style?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

I remember many years ago...back in my home town...they ran out a child molester...my aunt, uncle and several others all had a hand in this....if the local authorities decide to do nothing...what other choice is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 06:13 PM

It might seem a good idea at the time, but we know where it ends up. Woody Guthrie had something to say about this:

    Have you seen that vigilante man?
    Have you seen that vigilante man?
    Have you seen that vigilante man?
    I been hearin' his name all over the land.

    Well, what is a vigilante man?
    Tell me, what is a vigilante man?
    Has he got a gun and a club in his hand?
    Is that is a vigilante man?

    Rainy night down in the engine house,
    Sleepin' just as still as a mouse,
    Man come along an' he chased us out in the rain.
    Was that a vigilante man?

    Stormy days we passed the time away,
    Sleepin' in some good warm place.
    Man come along an' we give him a little race.
    Was that a vigilante man?

    Preacher Casey was just a workin' man,
    And he said, "Unite all you working men."
    Killed him in the river some strange man.
    Was that a vigilante man?

    Oh, why does a vigilante man,
    Why does a vigilante man
    Carry that sawed-off shot-gun in his hand?
    Would he shoot his brother and sister down?

    I rambled 'round from town to town,
    I rambled 'round from town to town,
    And they herded us around like a wild herd of cattle.
    Was that the vigilante men?

    Have you seen that vigilante man?
    Have you seen that vigilante man?
    I've heard his name all over this land.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:52 PM

When you open the door to mob violence the justification for the cause becomes
impotent. Woody said it best, above.

You can never abolish crime by adding to it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:56 PM

You can never abolish crime by doing nothing about it, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:11 PM

If they are "allowed" to take the law into their own hands, who controls the vigilantes if/when they get out of hand?

I'm concerned that once a vigilante group gets used to a sense of power, it may corrupt them (if they aren't already corrupted).

What happens then? What about innocent people who are targeted by them?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:22 PM

All the remarks are nice philosophy, but Amergin asked a serious question that deserves an answer.

"if the local authorities decide to do nothing...what other choice is there?"

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:23 PM

This event took place three years ago, it was all over the media, even Readers Digest did a piece on it, it was quite infamous for about 5 minutes. What IS your point in resurrecting it?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:29 PM

The story linked here is dated 2006, some three years ago. Anything more recent? In that case, four men were convicted of acting illegally and given conditional sentences.

In February 2009, three men and two women who were drunk confronted three men at a fishing building of the Tobique First Nation. I don't know the outcome of this one, but it sounds more like drunks attacking natives.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:34 PM

Bruce, labeling my questions as "nice philosophy" is one way of side stepping answering serious questions.

One answer to your question about what do you do if elected officials in a community aren't upholding the laws, or aren't upholding it fairly: throw the bums out by electing other officials. If the laws are unjust, change the laws.

Yes, I know this is easier said than done, but I'm very leery of vigalentes, with good cause as I assume that you would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:07 PM

That remark was not directed at you. Amergin's question deserves an answer. You answered it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:29 PM

Hmmm ... resurrected after 3 years.

Well I can say that since that time the RCMP are now more in tune to the needs of the citizens of Grand Manaan and no more such problems that ignited this incident have occurred ... so I guess you can say this vigilante protest borne out of sheer frustration and actions of last measure did some good.

anyway ... Vigilante Man ... good song ... I like this version by Ry Cooder .... so put away our arguments and enjoy some evening entertainment .. take a listen if you wish

vigilante man by Ry Cooder

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:36 PM

not a Ry Cooder fan, never was

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: meself
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:39 PM

I thought it was quite clear why it was being "resurrected" ....

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 12:30 AM

The following illustration by the American artist REginald Marsh came to mind.
the original caption reads:
This is her first lynching

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 01:07 AM

Here is an end result of vigilantes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs

Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 02:24 AM

Well ... there have been many, if not more injustices perpetrated by the judicial systems of democratic governments to the innocent and wrongly accussed .... fueled by paranoia, prejudice,and ignorance of the electorate. I guess the difference between that and vigilante action is that one is legal and one is not.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 07:03 AM

Bill, what you wrote is true.

But instead of being defeated before we try, even if the effort is monumental, I would suggest the following action points

-we should examine, acknowledge, constantly seek to eradicate our own prejudices

-we should help nurture non-prejudicial attitudes in ourselves and in others (especially our children and grandchildren) in little ways and bigger ways. This includes role modeling and teaching non-prejudicial values and behavior (that is, accepting and honoring cultural differences.

For example, we can reinforce our commitment to multiculturalism by learning about other people and cultures. And we can affirm and strengthen our non-prejudicial attitudes/values and help nurture those values in others by being un-equivocal in our support of others who are being unjustly targeted (in small and larger ways).

We can also role model our commitment to multi-culturalism by being un-equivocal in our redirections to our children/grandchildren or other children we have contact with, if we hear them saying something prejudicial against an individual or a group of people or if we hear them chanting rhymes that insult or ridicule a person or a group's race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, or religion (note: there are many more of these rhymes than the old form of "eenie, meenie, minie, mo").

We can show that we really value the humanity of other people by how we respond when our family members, friends, or peers make racist, and otherwise offensive jokes or comments, or plan some action against a person or group that is in unfair.

-In addition, we can become more active in our government on the local, state, and national level by working as individuals and by joining groups that help build a society that values others and treats others fairly. This includes voting and also includes active participation in government through such things as attending meetings-including city council meetings, and school board meetings, and contacting officials to let them know what your positions are on specific matters. An important aspect of this is working to ensure that the curriculum and textbooks in public schools support multi-culturalism [note: many textbooks don't].

-As I wrote in my previous post, if elected officials in a community aren't upholding the laws, or aren't upholding it fairly: throw the bums out by electing other officials. If the laws are unjust, change the laws.


I look forward to comments about these points, and I look forward to reading other persons' action statements about what individuals and groups can do in a democratic society to make that a society safe and equitable living environment for all.




Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: 3refs
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 08:17 AM

I suspect I'll get shit on for this one! Why? I'm probably a hypocrite!

Personally, I think that most problems start with religion, which I'm not confusing with spirituality.

World Religion Day
Baha'i sponsored day dedicated to the unity and oneness of all world religions. A place where many paths meet. A place to share inspiration, thoughts, prayers and love. A noble thought!

As a not-too-often practicing Baptised Christian(I lean more towards Animism), there are just some things I can't, and won't, accept from others. I suspect that what I accept will be just as readily rejected by others. There are somethings in most practices that I appreciate very much.

Tell me how I can sit and break bread with someone who has as much belief in their way of life and hatred of mine as I do theirs? Which of us is right?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: meself
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 10:44 AM

Umm - maybe neither?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 11:43 AM

There is no difference between the extremists of Christianity, Islam, Judaism or any other religion that harbours this sort. You cannot tar and feather an entire group because of some individuals within that group.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 01:41 PM

Vigilantism does nothing to help. It's a group of people setting themselves apart as authorities (playing god).

To do something about the problem of crime, as Azizi has said, become active in local organizations such as Neighborhood Watch (here in the States) or taking political action.
Decry violence whenever and wherever it occurs.

Azizi, a Langston Hughes quote: "Cheap little rhyme to cheap little tune is sometimes as dangerous as a sliver of a moon. Cheap little tune to cheap little rhyme will cut a man's throat sometime."

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 03:09 PM

Azizi .... I more than agree with your points.

In the incident mentioned in the subject of this thread the islanders did take their complaint to the police, they did take it to the local politicians, and to the provincial politicans .... to their dismay and frustration no action was taken. Grand Manaan is an island that up until that time was far removed from the focus of the Provincial government. Out of desperation they did what they had to do .... no one was harmed, they finally got the much needed attention of the Provincial government in way of social community organizing, better response from the police, and they got the drug dealers off the island. The vigilantes never tried evading the actions of what they did, and subsequently accepted the charges against them and served their time ... and no drug dealer was ever prosecuted.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 05:21 PM

The incident I described took place in a very small town in North Idaho...the guy had previously been convicted for molesting children...he went to prison, was paroled...and then went back to town..and started hanging out in places kids gather...the police would do nothing.

So a group of concerned parents got together...my aunt and uncle included...and ran his ass out.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 03:04 AM

A few months before this thread was started, the 'News of th World' was stirring up public anger in the UK, demanding that paedophiles be named and shamed. A group of people, too stupid to know the difference, targetd the home of a paediatrician.

BBC story

One man's vigilante group is another man's lynch mob.

If the authorities won't do what you want them to do, vote them out. Even better, get others to vote you in and then do something about it.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:43 AM

Good point ..... but what if the person who mistakenly led the mob to the pediatrician's house had run for political office instead ... and was voted in ... too many of these dangerous and/or apathetic dullards are voted into political office.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:47 AM

Case in point .... Bush's invasion of Iraq thinking there were weapon's of mass destruction to be found.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:24 AM

One man's vigilante group is another man's lynch mob.There both same thing with same end in mind, and both are averse to uing vilence if it suits their ends.
It reminds me of the Wyoming Stock Growers Association and the Johnson County Range War of 1892. The stand of the Wyoming Stock Growers Association was, if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, you're a rustler and if you're a rustler....we'll lynch you. Nate Champion, falsely accused of rustling found this out the hard way. He died defending his home rather lynching, but the message, from the WSGA was the same, "Cattle Thieves Beware".More

This also makes interesting reading. More


vigilantism, lynch mob mentallity No difference

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: olddude
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:00 PM

3refs

There is a huge difference between "Faith" and "Religion". Faith to me is the belief in the Creator (Christ for me), A God of love, understanding and compassion. Religion is a belief in an institution.   Faith never fails me, Religion will fail every time since it is of man. For many people their religion then evolves into intolerance, our way is the only way etc ... and then you see this verbal and physical hate against other groups , other religions, and other people. It is as far from the right path as one can get. All we see today is Religion, not faith ... that is why it is so bad anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:16 PM

I think the whole problem in regards to vigilantes, religeon, politics, war, lynching, racial descrimination, religeous descrimitation, cultural descrimination is directly due fear, ignorance, greed, arrogance and lust for power ... all human weaknesses.

Something to be said for faith olddude .... if only we had faith in our fellow human beings and in ourselfs ... and if we could only understand how our own faith affects the universe around us.

"Have you seen that vigilante man ?
Have you seen that vigilante man ?
Have you seen that vigilante man ?
I've been hearin' his name all over the land.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:35 PM

Hey longboat .... "Wyoming Stock Growers Association was, if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, you're a rustler and if you're a rustler....we'll lynch you"

Now does that sound familiar. The other person who said that was also a cowboy .... and he was an elected representative ... a legal mob leader ... "both are averse to uing vilence if it suits their ends"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: olddude
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:41 PM

Bill
you got it right my friend IMO.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:48 PM

I inagine that last bit should read "both are not averse to using vilence if it suits their ends."

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:28 PM

I believe that's what he meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:48 PM

I have very mixed feelings. I'm no supporter of lynch mobs. But formal routes can also be very difficult. You need to be there to know how you'd deal with a given situation.

For myself, I would rather call upon family to sort out any issues of personal harassment, than go to formal routes.
But, I do have the kind of family that will support me if needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

some of us don't aspire to being perfect and do make the odd typo once in awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: number 6
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

longboat .... we all make typo's every now and then.

"I inagine" ... even the messenger does.   ;)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: longboat (inactive)
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 05:01 PM

Thers's a piece on the Wikipedia website on Internet vigilantism, and with in the piece is a sub-section on online anti raacist groups That's not going to make the Folk Against Fascism crowd happy....being called vigilantes

Subject: RE: BS: Modern day vigilantes
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:16 PM

I'm still very much opposed to vigilantes. But I just read this comment on a thread about President Obama's response to former President Jimmy Carter's statement that racism was a factor in some people's response to Obama's presidency:

"Jimmy Carter, however, has a much wider berth in the racial discussion arena. I see it sort-of as a Batman / Comissioner Gordon relationship: Gordon must operate by the rulebook to bring in the criminals, Batman does not."

14. Sean;
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/09/23/open-thread-i-was-black-before-the-election/#comments


-snip-

I hadn't thought that Batman, Superman, and all the other superheroes were vigilantes.

While I like the idea of superhuman characters averting danger and coming to the aid of humans in times of trouble, I can see how it could be very problematic if those superhuman crime fighters turned to evil-which I guess is why there always are plots like that in comic books & movies.