Tech: 120 bass accordions

Subject: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:27 PM

As a player of an 8 bass button accordion I'm intigued by all the bass buttons on a 120 bass accordion. I understand the 48 and 72 varieties whereby each row of bass buttons is the counter bass note, bass note, major chord, minor chord etc. But what are the extra buttons for outside this central matrix of 12 x 7?

I found a site but it was in German so I couldn't make much sense of it but it wasn't an extension, up or down, of the central system?

Also the counter bass buttons: I presume they are there so that, for example, when playing in C major the bass notes C, E and G are close together. Is this correct?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:33 PM

I dont play accordion , but I think there are a lot of 'silly' chords on the 120's - Diminished and Augmented and such fripparies !!

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Thank The Deities for that.... I thought you meant there were 120 accordions!

Manitas would be able to help but he's away and computerless at the moment.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

FYI: First Row At Bellows, Counter Bass - 2nd Row, Fundamental Bass - 3 rd Row, Major Chord - 4 Row Minor Chord - 5 th Row Dominant 7th Chord - 6 Row Diminished 7th Chord. Flats on all rows on bottom end, Sharps on top end. PM me with your email address, I will send a diagram of the fingerboard. Cannot figure out how to paste it in here.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:39 PM

There's a lot of relevant info on the Stradella Bass system in the Accordion Permathread.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

This is probably a better and more detailed explanation:

The standard 120 bass accordion is composed of forty single bass notes and eighty chords. They are arranged in a series of six rows, each containing twenty buttons. The second row contains Fundamental
Bass notes. All bass and chord buttons are gauged from this row, as each bass is a key-note to the relative chord buttons below. The first or top row are counter bass notes, each being two full tones, or a major third higher than the Fundamental bass directly below. This arrangement places all the notes of the scale within easy reach of the fingers, as both rows are used for bass runs. The third row is composed of major chords; the fourth row of minor chords; fifth row of dominant seventh chords; sixth row of diminished seventh chords; each in the same relative position to the fundamental bass.

Each short row of buttons placed at an angle, contains bass notes and chords related to one key. Beginning from C, each consecutive row down is in the key of one added flat.

Example: C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb Cb E, A

Up from C, each consecutive row is in the key of one added sharp.

Example: C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#, D#, A#

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

Add:

selecting various combinations of appropriate chord buttons allows you to 'assemble' other less 'basic' chords.

I did have a link somewhere to a site that went into great detail on that.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:14 AM

While everything posted above is correct, watch out for "free bass" accordions. Tricky, but I'm sure someone with full details will fill you in.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:30 AM

G'day,

Dazbo:

I'm surprised that Foolestroupe (definitely the local piano accordion guru ...) didn't point out that the 120 bass gives 20 "starting points" ... and there are only 12 keys (scales) ... each, of course, having many different modes. I would presume that this means there is an "overlap" of 8 keys ... keys that occur at each both the top and bottom of the bass keyboard.

They don't have extra reeds ... just 'links' so that they can be placed in either position. This means you can transfer any bass pattern vertically without having to nip back to the top (or bottom) to complete the accompaniment.

Rowan: The "free bass" layout can exist as the sole bass end of some (very) specialist accordions ... or as another 3 rows of (~)20 single bass notes ... arranged as a mirror image of the central keyboard of a Continental Chromatic Accordion (or "chromatica"). These allow playing of single bass notes ... or selected groups of them in order to play written accompaniments ... not the 'Stradella Bass' system's arrangement of the most useful chords for popular music.

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:31 AM

Bob

that's all in the Permathread...


"most useful chords for popular music. "

of the 1920's to 1950/60s..... {:p

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: treewind
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM

Bob's got the key to the original question. The 12 note pattern repeats so the ends are duplicates. That's very useful if you're playing in a remote key, so the chords your need are always nearby.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Lester
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

Dazbo
You will be struck off at melodeon.net asking questions like this. :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:54 PM

Not a bit of it...John Kirkpatrick plays a melodeon with a
Stradella bass side. Jimmy Shand style.

Of course John Kirkpatrick actually has two fully functional
brains where everyone else on earth has only one...

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

Just to reverse things, I saw someone last week playing a piano accordion which had melodeon style basses. 12 bass buttons IIRC.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Once saw on a doco about WWII (the one with the colour footage) a german soldier playing one of those.

More info please!

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Declan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM

The inside row of counter bases represent the 3rd note of the scale so E is inside C, B is inside G etc. If you play a note from the second column, the note inside it and the note above it, you are playing the major chord of the scale. Interestingly if you hold down these three buttons, the button inside on the third row will automatically also go down, because this is the button that plays the same major chord. The same is true for any chord, if you hold down the constituent notes the chord button presses in automatically.

I learned to play a P.A years ago, but being a gentleman I don't do so any more. It was a great way of learning about chord structures, related chords and other parts of musical theory which has stood to me in learning to play other instruments over the years.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

"If you play a note from the second column, the note inside it and the note above it, you are playing the major chord of the scale"

That's the Major chord. Some Accordions also had an additional row outside that in which the same trick gave you the Minor chord - they were more expensive, and less popular.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:55 PM

Foolestroupe,
You've just explained to me the difference between 140 bass & 120 bass accordions, I think. It bugged me for years but I wasn't so motivated to actually get up and explore it.

Tootler,
Around the folk scene you'll commonly see Hohner Corona III button accordions. They're usually diatonic (like three-row melodeons) in A, D & G or G, C & F although I've seen them in almost every combination imaginable. Physically they're the same size as Hohner's smaller (40 bass?) piano or club accordions. Bob would probably be able to even quote you Hohner's model names. Occasionally you'd see a button accordion with a Stradella bass end. While most of these would have been Shand type 'British Chromatic Accordions (the B,C, C#) I've occasionally seen the Corona III with a Stradella bass end. Your sighting, though, is the first I've heard of the counterswap.

Bob,
You're right, of course about them being specialist but I got the impression that Dazbo might have (unexpectedly?) seen one. I've only ever seen one (40 years ago, in the hands of a Russian) and could recognise from a distance that he was playing it with dexterous use of the bass for a countermelody (tricky on a Stradella bass) but I have no recollection of whether the buttons have even the same physical appearance as the usual piano accordion

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM

There is also the Belgian bass system (which my Maugein C-system accordion has). There are six rows: minor-third counterbass, major-third counterbass, fundamental bass, major triad, minor triad, and diminished triad. No sevenths, you make them by combining a single note with a diminished triad. The buttons line up horizontally rather than falling along diagonals as in the Italian systems.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:00 AM

How delightful to get an accordion thread to 20 posts without the dazzling wit of the non cognoscenti! Long may it continue.

Tootler, are you sure what you saw wasn't a 12 bass Stradella system? It's just that it would confuse my admittedly challenged frontal lobes to drive on the right for the treble and the left for the basses. In other words, you'd seem to lose all the advantages of the Kirkpatrick/Shand model, and gain all the disdvantages of the limitation of the diatonic bass end?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:06 AM

Seen large (half inch or larger) buttons on some old 'few-bass' systems.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

Another large-button bass system is this accordion equivalent of the duet concertina:

Harmoneon page (in French)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for all these replies. I got the impression from the german site that the G buttons on the outside of the bass did not produce the same G chords as the internal G buttons.

IIRC some of the 3 row hohners built as BCC# boxes did have 12 melodeon basses not 12 stradella basses.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 11:41 AM

To respond to the replies to my post I do not know exactly what I saw, though it was a Hohner, had what looked like about a 2.5 octave piano keyboard (it was slightly larger than my Pockerwork melodeon) and the bass buttons were about the same size as melodeon bass buttons and arranged in two parallel rows like a melodeon. From the design, I would guess it was quite an old instrument.

Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to ask the owner about it.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Having a melodeon bass system with a piano keyboard would not have been a great restriction, if the then current 'tradition' was to only play in certain restricted keys, especially if playing with, or in the style of other instrumentations.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

G'day Tootler,

"... I do not know exactly what I saw, though it was a Hohner, had what looked like about a 2.5 octave piano keyboard (it was slightly larger than my Pockerwork melodeon) and the bass buttons were about the same size as melodeon bass buttons and arranged in two parallel rows like a melodeon."

I can remember Polly Garland (English-born, now Australian-resident) player of almost anything that produces a tune - having a pretty little old Hohner - in what looked like the classic pokerwork body, but in white paint with delicate flower patterns - with a small "piano key" right hand and 12 bass buttons arranged as the core of a "Stradella Bass" system.

I would presume that it was constructed as a 'children's model' ... as a starting point from which the child would advance to larger, more full piano accordion systems. It could have come from any time between the turn of the 20th century and World War 2.

Occasional Mudcatter "Squeezeme" would probably have worked on the instrument and could correct my passing impression.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:22 AM

Most probably bass & treble for F C G D A and either Bb or B.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Lester
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

The Shand B/C/C# bass end looks like
this, courtesy of melodeon.net

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM

G'day,

Lester: I'm sure that - sometime far enough back - Jimmy Shand may have played a B/C/C# with only 48 Stradella basses ... but successive promotional items put out by Hohner seemed to showed the left-hand growing at a positively cancerous rate!

I think the final Shand model was the Shand Morino with 46 treble keys (12 more than this diagram) and 117 basses (61 more than this diagram)!

Foolestroupe: You are, almost certainly, right about Polly's little piano accordion. I'm not sure of the exact placement of the range, but it was a bass note and chord system ... and it did give a simple major accompaniment in the keys around the C / C / F set (... more likely to have had a Bb end ... if it was intended for use in Europe ... ?).

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:41 AM

I've repaired a few 120 stradella bass systems. They're amazing pieces of work and the mender's equivalent of the Times crossword. Does anyone know who invented them? Perhaps Mr Stradella?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

G'dayGUEST,Ancient Briton,

Stradella is a town in the north-west of Italy ... and a noted early centre of accordion making. I presume that the system (which finally perfected the French initiative of applying a piano keyboard to the right hand of early accordions) was worked out by craft-makers in Stradella.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:49 AM

Thanks for that Bob.

I've seen a lot of propaganda for Castelfidardo which I think is near Ancona in the NE of the country, but never heard of Stradella the town.

Do any current accordion "names" originate from Stradella?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:46 AM

G'day Ancient Briton,

I have an interesting small book, published by Itinerari d'Immagini, Milano, in 1987- constituting the catalogue of Accordions, in the MUSEO miscellaneo GALBIATI, Brugherio. This covers English & German concertinas and bandonions, as well as accordion-type instruments from Germany, France, Austria and ... mostly ... Italy. The instruments are mainly from small masters - not big factories (although both Settimio and Paolo Soprani are well-represented).

One maker I was recently interested to see represented by a 3-row beautiful diatonic played by a Filipino in Australia's Darwin, during the Depression era - and who is well represented in the book is Mariano Dallape & Figlio ... of Stradella!

I think that, like car makers of the 20th century, the factories and production lines pushed out the master craftsmen of earlier, developmental times ... and the Castefidardo region's factories seem to have survived until recent times ... maybe the region's good Catholic image as "defenders of the Papal states (hence "Castelfidardo") served them well in the marketplace!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:05 AM

There are a few manufacturers still in Stradella and there are a lot still in Castelfidardo. I was there last year and they're all over the town. Some are big names (Dino Baffetti, Paolo Soprani etc) but there are lots of small manufacturers too, many of whom don't seem to have a web presence.

I've got my father's 8 bass piano accordion (Foulestroop, I'd forgotten we'd discussed this before) I think it is just pre or post WW2. If I remember I'll try and get a couple of photos up for you to look at. The basses from memory are F, C, G and D and the major chord.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

Foolestroupe and Bob, yes I recall Polly's little decorative 1920s white Hohner piano accordion, which she has apparently now sold. A 2 reed, 2 octave treble, C to C, and 8 "mushroom" buttons on the bass, giving F, C, G and D notes and majors, same note push and pull, though construction and tone definitely owed more to melodeon than piano-accordion technology.

I've seen this same model on eBay from time to time; I think they made quite a lot of them.

Sorry, what was the question? ;-)

MC

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM

Bob and Dazbo - thanks for all that information.

I bought my wife a little Hohner 1928 *white/stylised blue flowers* 2-reed 2-octave 12 bass piano accordion last year - all it needed was a few valves replacing and it plays fine. The bellows, keyboard and body are all in near-new condition. The basses are conventional 12-bass piano accordion - major chords and tonic for Bb F C G D and A. The piano keys are just a bit slimmer and taller than the ones on her 1950's 12-bass Bell "working" accordion. I think it's a little jewel.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

My little red 32 bass Settimo Soprani is wonderful, but annoying - I would happily trade the '7th' row for a contrabass row. My black 48 bass Settimo Soprani is a 4x12 - maj, min, and 2 bass rows, but is bigger, heavier, and red ones sound better!

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

Two photos of my dad's 8 bass piano accordion. Although it works it's leaky and not in tune. I enquired about getting it restored but it seems the parts used are no longer standard:-(

Accordion

Insides

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

Nothing of that age uses 'standard parts' - and whover told you that is probably only buying their parts from Exclesoir, or Hammond, or ....


a real 'fixer' will make or modify parts - but it will cost...

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:45 AM

Foolestroupe,

That'll teach me not to preview the post. I meant to say that that the parts used then are not compatible with their modern, "standardised" counterparts. And yes, they could have done it but as you said - it will cost. Still it's a nice momento of my dad, even if I never heard him play it.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM

Which reminds me, I was going to say that I have a similar box, referred to before, but with the 12 buttons larger, and not arranged in 'Stradella' layout, but in 'Melodeon' layout, ie, not staggered, but lined up straight, not offset, in 2 rows.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:51 AM

Which reminds me, I was going to say that I have seen a similar box, referred to before, but with the 12 buttons larger, and not arranged in 'Stradella' layout, but in 'Melodeon' layout, ie, not staggered, but lined up straight, not offset, in 2 rows.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:53 AM

San Franciscans like to claim that the piano accordion was
actually developed by their own Columbo Accordion Co. and
first exhibited at the 1898 San Francisco Exposition. I
think it was probably more complex and collaborative than
that, but I do believe the date of inception is probably
pretty close.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

GregB reminded me of a conundrum that I've long thought about but never had the time to really explore. I play concertina and melodeon and am aware of the origins of the concertina. It struck me as odd but understandable that Wheatstone developed a unique keyboard layout for his Symphonium and then his original concertina. It's also understandable that Lachenal avoided patent legalities by modifying melodeon layout for his original (but later) concertina keyboard.

Given that what we now call the piano keyboard predated all the bellows-powered free reed instruments by some centuries, why did it take them so long to get a piano keyboard version popularised. I know piano keyboards appeared on variously named bellows powered lap organs prior to Queen Vi' shuffling off the mortal coil (1901) but you'd reckon the layout for an accordion type of instrument would have been first cab off the rank. Why not?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

Because the buttons were easier to build, until someone realised that the keyboard would be easier to play?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:00 AM

G'day,
GregB The Itinerari d'Immagini book (which, I forgot to mention, is calle Le Fisarmonische ~ Italian for "The Accordion") has a Mariano Dallape piano-key accordion with 3½ octaves of treble and 112 'Stradella' basses in 7 rows of 16. The museum dates it as "1890 circa" and states that it is "one of the earliest piano-accordions".

However, much earlier than that have a French Busson 'Harmoniflute' from 1855 - 3 2/3 octaves of treble keys - but no bass.

As I said above, the Stradella bass system "finally perfected the French initiative of applying a piano keyboard to the right hand of early accordions" ... and I haven't come across anyone calling it "the San Fransico bass system"! Given the fact that 19th century America was built on systematic and blatant patent and copyright theft ... we may need to question how the Columbo Accordion Co. defines invention.

Rowan: Lachenal hardly had to develop anything to "avoid" Wheatstone's patents ... he had developed all the manufacturing tooling for Wheatstone ... for both the English system and German / Anglo-German / Anglo-chromatic instruments Wheatstones produced before, at the expiry of Wheatstone's 14-year patent, setting up his own business, which differed mainly in the degree to which he used cottage-workers, on the Victorian "Draw and (de)Liver" system to make up components that were then graded and assembled in his factory.

Uhlig's German concertina system was "Anglicised" into "Wheatstone's" hexagonal body by Jones ... in the early 1840s ... but there were already nicely "London-made" 'German concertinas' built in the earlier German rectangular form ... and with more German-style wooden keywork and long plates of reeds... by quite good makers like Henry Harley ... around 1840. These are what popularised the simple and powerful diatonic form and laid the groundwork for Jones / Lachenal and Wheatstone's Anglos.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:20 AM

Bob (and Rowan), if you have not already seen this site, well worth a look, http://www.concertina.org/pica/index.htm , left of page click on PICA, then Contents 1/2004 to find Steve Chambers' article on the Louis Lachenal. Some recent research would seem to re-define the relationship between Wheatstone and Lachenal.

MC

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

G'day squeezeme and Rowan,

Hmmm ... I should go and look at the reference sites before relying on what I laughingly call my memory!

I slipped a decade in Lachenal's move to producing in his own right ... it was in 1858 - after the expiry of Wheatstone's 1844 patent.

Bob Gaskin's Concertina Library (www.concertina.com) has an account of a fascinating English collection of early concertinas ... and that includes an 1835 English-made copy, from Bath, of a really early style of Uhlig German Konzertina ... from only a year before - so the accordion-derived diatonic concertina was known ... and being experimented upon ... from the first year Wheatstone sold one of his English concertinas.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

>Because the buttons were easier to build, until someone realised that
>the keyboard would be easier to play?

I believe you're on to one thing, and off on the other...

The button-box is certainly easier to build. It has less than
half the reeds (being diatonic) to get in the space and of
course half the valves, levers, springs, and other fiddly
bits.

However, I don't believe 'easier to play' is the case.

And I've played both.

The button box has an initial learning curve, but like a
harmonica or Anglo concertina renders acceptable folk or
traditional music within a short period of time and with
little knowledge of music theory. It tends to put the
player in the key intended by the makers and coordination
of the left and right hands is nearly automatic, once one
figures things out.

It's light, small, and within its limitations, quite useful.

The piano accordion, even in its simpler forms, is a lot more
intimidating. On average it's three times as heavy and twice
as large as the button box. The untrained musician sees nothing
but a sea of black and white keys on the right and black
buttons on the left. The size and weight of the left side make
bellows-control a whole new issue. It's very easy for everything
to sound like a dirge. Even for someone trained on piano, the
size of the keys makes for fingering anomalies. Unlike the button
box, you have to again start thinking about sharps and flats and
scales, and an octave on that instrument covers about twice
the space versus the four buttons of a button box.

I play a row-crossing technique on a D/G (usually) button box,
and I *still* find that easier (i.e, less effort) than navigating
the keyboards of a 120-bass piano accordion and managing all of
that weight and size.

When I started in squeezeboxes, it was with English concertina
and piano accordion. Being a classically trained pianist who
transitioned into ragtime during the Scott Joplin craze, I thought
that it would be the logical choice.

It wasn't.

I picked up button accordion out of necessity (participation in a
Dickens Faire where piano accordions were considered anachronistic
and thus prohibited) and being forced to figure out the D/G box
ranks as one of the best things that ever happened to me musically.

I think the piano accordion is initially 'easier' for a 'trained
musician' but for tranditional or folk music any initial advantage
disappears once a rather quick understanding of the diatonic system
is impressed into the neurons. The piano accordion appeals
intellectually; viscerally, buttons perhaps work better.

Now for the sailor picking something up to take to sea in order
to make some noise, the button box was just the thing. Very
easy to learn to honk out tunes, much less to go wrong, and
much easier to store under (or in) your bunk.

I tell people that 'the button accordion was the Casio keyboard
of the late 1800's.'

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM

"I tell people that 'the button accordion was the Casio keyboard
of the late 1800's.' "

I'll go along with that, and with much of your argument, especially portability, 'much less to go wrong', and 1st use by 'untrained musicians'; the bulk of trained musos at certain times in history were 'keyboard trained'. Also piano accordions, from what Bob Bolton intimated to me, were far more expensive, thus also economically and culturally restricting their market. Also, you could get a 'usable-muso' capability (with either button or piano box) much faster than with a violin, etc.


"It tends to put the player in the key intended by the makers and coordination of the left and right hands is nearly automatic, once one figures things out."

Yes - But I have never been able to be comfortable on a harmonica, the lack of 'all the notes' is the reason. And as for the chromatic, that's even harder for me...


"I think the piano accordion is initially 'easier' for a 'trained
musician''

It's 'dead easy' for a keyboard player, and the more music theory you have on chords, scales, etc, the easier the Stradella system (one of two technical difference from a piano!) is to pick up.

If you have any pipe organ (or wind pedal organ) experience, the free reed accordion is VERY similar, and VERY different to a piano, so the bellows concepts (the other technical difference) have mostly been covered, you just need the ability to physically control it (which is also muscular training!).


'but for traditional or folk music any initial advantage disappears once a rather quick understanding of the diatonic system is impressed into the neurons."

For some people.

"The piano accordion appeals intellectually; viscerally, buttons perhaps work better."

For some people.


"120-bass piano accordion and managing all of that weight and size"

Which is why I have several instruments - I play more of the 'fast and interesting rhythm' stuff on the 'baby boxes' - you don't need 120 bass buttons for much music (bass major, and sometimes minor will cover most 'folk & popular music') it merely gives you an 'any key versatile' instrument in one box, instead of several.


One of the other points of 'buttons vs keyboard' - once you have 'all the notes' laid out and playable in both directions (any other setup would be 'illogical' with a keyboard!), you sense a NEED for the bass side to do the same.


"Even for someone trained on piano, the size of the keys makes for fingering anomalies. "

My boxes have about 4 different sizes of piano accordion keyboard spacings (the miniatures, while being lighter, do have this drawback) - this has never worried me, as many 'electronic keyboards', especially cheapies, are of different key sizes - I just need to keep a vague visual contact with the keyboard when changing instruments to avoid such hassles.