Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?

Subject: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Abbot
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:11 AM

Why do folk clubs charge an entrance fee?

One club that I used to go to charge £2 and then come around selling raffle tickets as well. I can understand this if they are paying for a guest performer, but they're not. Are people making a profit or wot?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

We charge £2.50 on Guest nights. £5 (negotiable!) if it is your first visit but that buys your memebership for subsequent visits as well. It is free on singers nights although if non singers want to contribue they can do so financialy instead:-) Raffle goes round on all occasions.

Why do you assume that all folk clubs are not paying a guest performer?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:19 AM

Well not all folk clubs do charge entrance fees...

They need to pay for guests (a club say running a 1 in 4 for example may need income from all 4 nights to pay for the guest night).

They perhaps have other costs, eg. equipment, a charge for the room, etc.

I've known clubs build up a reasonable reserve (which I've known be partly spent on bigger name or extra guests, kit, etc.) but never one making profits.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:27 AM

>>I've known clubs build up a reasonable reserve (which I've known be partly spent on bigger name or extra guests, kit, etc.) but never one making profits.<<
spot on Jon

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:21 AM

We've just started charging a weekly admission fee or an annual membership which works out cheaper - helps to offset the losses when we put a guest on occasionally. At £1 a time it's not exactly costing anyone a fortune and is in line with most other singer's nights locally.

"Profit" and "Folk Club" just don't seem to go together!.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

Some clubs use premises (e.g. a room above a pub) that incur a charge, so they have to cover the cost of that.

But even if they don't have to pay for the premises, other clubs I know will make a small charge (typically a couple of quid IME) on session/singaround nights, to help defray the costs of guest nights. This enables them to have 'bigger name' guests (i.e. better known and more expensive) on guest nights, which they would otherwise be unable to afford. Hiring a big name is a gamble for the organisers, because all sorts of factors can affect attendance, and if they didn't have a rolling cash fund they would make losses and the club would have to close. Most regular attendees at the sessions understand that and are happy to pay for what is after all a small amount for a whole evening's entertainment (even if they are providing it themselves!)

(I guess if a club doesn't ever book guests and only ever has sessions/singarounds, and they don't have to pay any costs for the room, etc., then the question is a valid one. Where does the money go in that case? No idea.)

Many people take for granted the work that goes on behind the scenes at folk clubs, which are (I assume) mostly run by volunteers. Hats off to all club organisers who give up their time for our benefit!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

Did you hear about the club organiser who won the jackpot on the lottery ? They asked him what he was going to , and he said "Keep running the club till its all gone!"
A singers club CAN run for nothing IF the club doesnt advertise in the local Folk Magazine , and IF the landlord lets them have space for nothing !
I know of clubs that have been offered use of a room in a pub for ONLY £50 a night !!!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:02 AM

Good point about the advertising, Leadfingers. And I guess the organisers should be entitled to claim back the costs of phone calls etc. to booking agents, local press, etc. No reason why they should be out of pocket.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

Amen to all that.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

I do object to pubs charging for rooms.

"You want me to bring in people to your pub and charge me for the privilege"!!

People run folk clubs (and festivals for that matter) so they can guarantee to see the people they like!! Certainly not for money.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:28 AM

I would think that any folk club would have incidental expenses even if they didn't book guest artists (and most do, I think, even if it's just occasionally). There is advertising, the cost of maintaining a website, cost of a room, equipment, phone calls, etc. I find the idea of anybody making a profit off of a folk club hard to fathom, and even if the organizers did make anything it would hardly compensate the time most of them put into it.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

I've run a folk club for the last 9 years, and believe me, we don't make a profit. When we first started, I had to pay for the hiring of the space, supper (which we provided), paying the performers, advertising and photocopying flyers. With the help of a raffle as well as the admission, I usually managed to break even, although if the crowd wasn't big, the performers didn't get paid as much. It was always made clear that we could only do a door deal.

Since 2000, we have been lucky to be in a space which was offered to us for free, and which is run like a coffee shop. If their takings are good, everybody benefits.

We nearly always have a guest artist, with the occasional singers' night thrown in, where the admission is less. Nobody seems to mind paying something. The fact is that if I didn't have these sometimes, I would be out of pocket.

On a couple of occasions I have decided to be brave and have a big name overseas artist and an agreed minimum fee. The first time I was burnt badly, and was not keen to take the gamble again. In the last 18 months I have started having occasional special Sunday afternoon concerts in addition to the usual Thursday nights - but always with someone well known and usually from overseas (although not always) that I was pretty sure would draw a good crowd.

I was confident enough with Les Barker to promise a good size minimum fee, and we were not disappointed. The place was packed, Les was handsomely rewarded, and we used some extra money to take him out to dinner afterwards. That was definitely one of our finer moments.

Another great occasion was a few months ago when we had El Greko and Cloudstreet at a Sunday afternnoon concert - not as financially rewarding as the Les Barker one, but we did okay, and of course it was a delightful afternoon!

There have been nights where the turnout has been so poor that I have wondered why we keep going at all, but the good ones come along often enough to make it worthwhile. I have seen people blossom as performers, who originally came along to the club as audience, who then took the first few tentative steps towards performing and gained experience by doing floorspots, eventually gaining the confidence to start performing as solo performers or with a group. I have actually had the pleasure on a few occasions to be able to invite some of these people back as guest performers and pay them! Those kinds of things are the best reward of all! Bugger the money!    I can't believe I said that :-)

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM

Most of our clubs meet in community or neighbourhood centres, not pubs. As we pay rent, naturally we charge for our concerts. My club doesn't have session nights.

Most of these venues demand Public Liability insurance as the ratepayers/Neighbourhood centre committee can't afford potential insurance claims.

Raffles are rare in the clubs I know - the only time I've ever seen one was when I took over the club & needed money for insurance, Bond for the key, purchase of the newly created banner, front of house & supper floats, etc.

My club runs from month to month & performers only get door deals. We don't have a bank account, tho I do keep extra change separately from the floats! I try to cover my phone calls, but don't keep an exact list. When I retire next year I'll really miss my Xerox bonus when I have to pay for my own photocopying! I don't make many posters as most punters use the website or email lists to get info about concerts.

sandra

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

It's funny you know but I remember another thread not too long ago where clubs were castigated for not charging enough. Just goes to show, you can't pease everyone, so you've got to please yourself. With apologies to Rick Nelson:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:09 AM

Hi, Folkiedave, trust me as a festival organised I & my wife are lucky to see any of the performances during our festival, we rarely even have time to enter a session or workshop.
There have been times when an artist has arrived, played, been paid & gone without us even meeting them ( that sounds like piss poor plannig or even "rude" but it's not it is just a fact of life ). That used to happen in the times of Stanford in the vale as we where spread accross the village.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

The truth is, as a performer - when I look at a possible venue for booking, if the venue is NOT focused on making moeny I know it is a sign of likely failure. I know that if the venue is not capable of drawing enough of an audience to pay its expenses (as listed above by others) and to pay me - it doesn't matter their intentions or interest in music, the gig will NOT be worthwhile for me financially - and making a living as I do at music, I cannot afford too many financial failures in a year.

I love the venues where the focus of the folks running the place is on the music - but I know if they don;t have enough business savey to keep their venue afloat there's no reason for me to be playing there.

I've never seen anyone get filthy rich from running a folk club. Making a profit for an evening's music event is almost always the way a club generates income to meet its operating costs ... and again, as a performer for these sort of places, I know that if the club's been operating for a while, or if they are willing to offer a reasonable minimum, they probably have enough savey to produce a good concert and gather a good crowd.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Abbot
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM

I was just curious, as the club I referred to earlier only have about 3 or 4 paid guests a year. They only pay them £50 or so. They don't pay for the room. They charge £2 + £1 for a raffle. There are usually about 30 people sometimes a lot more. Though I can't name names for legal reasons, I am sure the committee of that club are on a jolly every week. As a member can I ask to see audited accounts?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM

Though I can't name names for legal reasons

Of course you can, Abbot. Unless of course your statements are libelous (or is it slanderous on the internet?). Are you not sure whether what you posted is true or not? In which case why post it as a fact?

Just curious.

DtG

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM

Internet defamation is libel.

Tell you what, Abbot, start a rival club and then you'll see.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Ian
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:43 AM

There should also a royalty paid to the performing rights.
For the sonngs / music covered by copyright.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM

I assume that Ian is referring to non traditional songs being sung in a folk club.
Do remember that if you have written a song and somebody else performs it you won't collect from PRS unless you are a member and the premises/club has a PRS licence, which in my experience is very unlikely.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:02 PM

Pubs almost always have PRS licences, but sometimes only the blanket licence for the Juke box.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM

To anybody who doubts the cost of running a club, and the costs that never get charged, then all I can say, is get off your arse and do it yourself and then you will know. To say that somebody might bbe having a jolly on the money taken at a club, you must have a very suspicious mind and obviously have no idea what it costs.
If I didn't bear the costs of te;lephone calls, printing/publicity and website costs, the club would have a deficit. If the support Artists didn't play for nowt, ther wouldn't be the money to bring a guest in.
As for the performer Jed Arrum who belittles the efforts of club organisers who don't earn anything and do things for the love of it implies that we are not able to run a club, you are a lucky git to get any work. Its the club organisers that give you your bread and butter and never forget that.

>>I love the venues where the focus of the folks running the place is on the music - but I know if they don;t have enough business savey to keep their venue afloat there's no reason for me to be playing there.<<
You pompous ass. Clubs make money on non full gig nights and that money generally goes towards funding your salary when you get a gig. Remind me not to invite you to my club.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:18 PM

"Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?"

Because only worthless things are free

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:28 PM

Jed Marum is American, Villain, perhaps things work differently over there?

Whatever, he is clearly clueless about the ways (the ones I was once involved with managed on just raffles, etc. btw) many UK clubs operate and can operate succesfully for many years.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:34 PM

Ah that maybe explains his comments then. Thanks for that Jon.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM

Regarding Jed Marum's comments, I am in the US. We run our concert series not to make money, but because we love the music and want to provide a venue. Nevertheless, we have always managed to pay our performers the agreed upon fees, and we have had a few better known performers whose fees were not small. I know of several other coffehouse type situation where the same applies, and some have been in business a number of years. There have been occasions when they have dipped into their own pockets to make sure the artist got what they were entitled to. Of course no one has to take a gig and it's entirely up to the performer if their criteria is that they only want to perform at a place if the organizer is in it for the money.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM

I've seen Jed perform twice at house concerts set up by a very small group of folkies in the Portland area of Maine.

Jed lives in Texas, almost diametrically at the other end of the USA from Maine. I know, from the trip that Kendall and I took to California that it costs to travel across that very big country - around $500 a head simply for the air fares. Add to that the cost of accomodation, which isn't always provided, agent's fees, hire of a vehicle (gigs, even in the same state can be quite a distance between) and a professional performer cannot afford to do a gig for the chance that they might make, say $100 because the organisers did not advertise properly or that local interest in folk was not sufficient to pull in a larger audience.

Luckily for us Jed is a Mudcatter and a friend, in particular, of Kendall's and so it is almost more of a social visit when he comes to us. He also has family, I believe in Massachusets so isn't too far from us when making family visits. The money he makes from our house concerts - all the admission money collected, may defray his expenses but he ain't going to get rich on it.

There is definitely a marked difference between the UK and the USA on this one.

By the way - if Jed ever does come to the UK book him - you will have a great evening. He is a consumatte performer, terrific songwriter and accomplished musician. Not to be missed.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:07 PM

Skipy is right of course festival organisers rarely see the artists they have booked.

I once booked Vin Garbutt and never saw him. Great disappointment.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

Pompous ass? clearly clueless?

Surely my comments have been misunderstood. I'll try again.

I have been asked to perform at many festival and concert venues; large and small - long standing and brand new. It is rare that I meet people, in the Folk Roots music world who do not do this work for the love of the music. But I have played a few where if I'd paid closer attention I might not have committed a Saturday night to an event never had a chance of success. I know even the best venues have poorly attended shows sometimes, - but some venues never get off the ground, because they can't draw, can't maintain and can't meet their committments.

I have had very very few occasions when I was treated badly by event producers, in this business. I certainly made no insult to organizers who don;t make money. I said that the clearest sign a venue is running well is that they make enough to keep afloat and meet their obligations. Why is that insulting? pompous? clueless?

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:04 PM

Hi Jed, as far as I can make out with 35 years behind me, you are correct.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

thanks skipy - thanks jacui

marrryf - that is what I have seen most often; good will from the organizers. When things go bad (an ice stormm instead of the festival or a water main break on he acces road to the concert room) I have almost always been treated fairly by the folks running the event. Most places normally pay your fee, or the cancellation fee (if there is such a clause). Most event organizers are good folks and will do their best under these situations.

But these aren't the things I'm talking about. It may seem counter intuitive, but you must have enough business savey to stay afloat if you want to run a successful folk club. I thouroughly enjoyed sitting in the small study in South Portland Maine last week, playing for a dozen or two friends - but even there the good folks who organized the event made sure that I earned enough to make it to the next gig (and maybe a little extra). I won't get rich doing this, but I have been making the mortgage!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

Jed has asked whether his comments are insulting, pompous or clueless. Apart from the fact that his statements clearly aren't any of these accusations, let us examine his credentials. He is a professional musician of amny decades standing, commanding great respect from a much wider community than Mudcat. The Villan is a self-confessed non-perfomer who has creditably set up a successful folk club in an era of decline for that culture. As the performer is the life-blood of the promoter, it seems churlish for Villan to decry Jed's economically-justifiable comments.


It would seem a positive outcome of this uncharacteristic spat if apologies were agreed, both gentlemen shook virtual hands and Jed were to tour the UK, and headline at Villan's folk club.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

We run our festival at a loss ( not giving figures here ) but the way we see it, there are 2 of us, so divide the loss by 2, there are 52 weeks in a year redivide by that, take off the fees we would have to pay if we where not in AFO, ignore petrol/diesel, phone calls & loads of other things & take into account that it is our "hobby", however we do it because we believe in the music & the people, but mostly the need to provide a venue to keep this going.
If we where into other "hobbies" such as motorbike racing, photography, etc. etc. it would cost us a lot more, so we do it & we do it because we want too!
Hells teeth it is not easy, but when we read the comments on Mudcat from people who have been to stay with us for a weekend it is worth it.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM

Jed,

The truth is, as a performer - when I look at a possible venue for booking, if the venue is NOT focused on making moeny I know it is a sign of likely failure

What do you mean by foucsed on making money then? Making a profit? Money being the primary concern, or what?

A way I've known several clubs run very successfully and pay the artists is not one I would describe as any of those.

I'll give you an example of one club I was involved with from about 1981-89 when we packed in (not for financial reasons). Let's say at one point, we were averaging about £20 a night with the raffle and passing the pot round (no admission charges). We'd try to work around 1 in 4 for a guest, dropping off in the winter. We know a few highly reliable performers who were not that expensive, say £60. So on average we have £20 per month built up more than the cost of a guest so we build up a bit of a reserve. If the reserve gets a bit high, we can throw in an extra guest night or maybe pay a bit more for a guest, etc. as our primary concern is not making money.

Obviously running that way (and I prefer that type of club to concert style clubs) can not get many big names but still we managed Martin Carthy for example over those years.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:38 PM

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Coffee houses, singing sessions & house concerts are quite different from the folk clubs on the other side. I've only been to 1, what I'd call folk club in the sense of Brittish Isles or Irish clubs. That was one I used to help with in Boston, the Boston Traditional Singers Club. It was held on the 3rd floor of a 3 story bar. That room cost us nothing. We all pitched in $2 per head a night & met on every Wed nite. To join it cost $10 once a life, I nearly had to pay twice. The agreement was we would try to bring in enough heads to make it worthwhile for the owner to keep it opened (after 3 or so yrs he finnaly threw us out). We'd put the cash away along with the membership fee & when some heard of a traveler worth hiring we'd use the money from that (it was done by vote of the membership). We'd try to come to a finiancial argreement & cover that no matter what & then offer them the door & then start from the beginning again. It worked fabulous. Frank Harte was breezing through we caught him on an off nite, he made a few bucks on the fly & we had him as our guest. The same happened with a number of others that were priceless, passing though or just by chance on a visit & they were all happy with the pickup & all were great. This afforded us maybe one great guest every 2 months of the average or 2 lesser know but still great guests. The guest nites ran with the members (the same $2, I think) or non members (anywere from $5-$10 which would also go towards membership, I believe) singing for maybe the 1st 45 minutes then the guest for maybe an hour, then a break with chatter with friends or the guest the start in with a shorter round of club mebers singing then the guest with about another hour, ending of the rest of the nite singing until very one was gone or until the bar closed (2pm). The guest nite would include a barman (no cost to us, it was worth it to the bar man just in tips) on the 3rd floor (other nites you'd go down to the street level & bring your drinks back up yourself) We always had at least 6 or 7 on regular nites but I don't thik ever more than 15 or 16. We never did figure out how to draw enough singers & on lookers to have the owner want to really keep us there. I must say that it was good of him to keep us as long as he did. I also don't think that this a very popular type of gathering here in the US, at least I've never heard of another one. Now there is a difference between what I've discribed here as a club & a US singing session.
What Jed is refering to is not what I'd call a singers club like you've got across the pond, if it were he'd be begging for work seeing as there ain't any clubs like that here(again that I know of), & that's our shame, for it was far better than any other type of weekly gathering of this type I've ever been to here in the US.
It was also one of the most singer & non singer friendly spots I've ever attended. With all non-regulars being treated & greated very warmly. Like they have just been invited to sing or listen in your kithen for the nite, WOW, do I miss that.   

Barry

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:41 PM

Thanks Barry.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:34 PM

When I was in Singapore with the RAF , there were several folk clubs ,
all of which charged a small admission . This was used to pay travelling expenses for visiting singers from 'off camp' to make sure that it wasnt JUST the locals every week . The excess was used to fund a 'Folk Song Jamborree' (All the clubs did this) with a first half of 'booked' artists doing twenty minutes or so , then a dance with one of the local Rock Groups every three months or so ! As you can appreciate , Singapore is a little too far out to bring any 'pro' singers from UK or USA or even Australia ! So the clubs were totally dependant on who was on the Island - Servicemen and their Families ,
and one School Teacher who was employed to educate the children of accompanied serveice personnell .

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Effsee
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM

And wasn't that a time Terry? I think there was more than one teacher though.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM

There aren't 'clubs' here, the same way there are in the UK. They're venues that hire enterainers, and sometimes those are folk musicians. If they always hire folk musicians, it's likely they'll be called a 'folk club'.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: alison
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM

hire of hall, public liability insurance (has been close to $600 on occasion), supper...... it all adds up

I keep admission fees low, but we supplement our income by having the club play a few local council jobs for a reasonable fee during the year.... we have to to cover the public liability costs!!

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Bugsy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM

What's wrong with running a folk club and making a profit?

If those attending have an enjoyable evening, the artists get paid the going rate, I can't see the problem.

CHeers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:51 AM

Firstly let me apologise to Jed. I realise now that he is talking about a totally different concept and one where a lot of money seems to be involved. In those circumstances, if the organsisers aren't set up properly, they are going to go down the pan. So yes I misunderstood as Barry said.

The majority of clubs, whether, singaround, session, concert style as I understand it in the UK, build up a reserve over time to allow them to buy in the odd guest (as Guest Jon indicated). Profit making is not necsssarily the object of the club. Obviously they need to break even over time otheerwise they would fold, but that doesn't mean that they break even or make a profit on the guest night. Basically I suppose the night is subsidised, and if you do make a profit thats nice. Most of theses clubs are run by folkies or the audience is folkie based. A totally different concept to the US.

I think Jeri hit it on the nail with his comments in relation to UK and US
>>There aren't 'clubs' here, the same way there are in the UK. They're venues that hire enterainers, and sometimes those are folk musicians. If they always hire folk musicians, it's likely they'll be called a 'folk club'. <<
In this concept it is a business and as a performer, you would expect the business to make sure that they promote the performers and try and maximise profits not only for the venue, but for the performer.

So once again apologies Jed - totally different ball game.

Les

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:54 AM

Oh and Bugsy, no problem in making money as a folk club, it really depends on what your motives are for doing it.

My club is a no profit making keep folk alive club and are teherfore not in the game for making profits in that way.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:36 AM

From my experience on non-profit boards: just because you're "non-profit" doesn't mean you're not allowed to be in the black! It means only that any positive net cash flow goes back in to serve the mission of the organization, rather than being paid out to shareholders, executives, or board members.

'Course if the publicity is "not-for-profit" but the reality is different, that's another kettle of fish, and not a rare enough one.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:06 AM

Abbot - if it's a properly-constituted folk club (I stress the word CLUB), then there should be elected officers (including a treasurer), bona-fide members and an AGM at which the financial statements for the year are presented to the members. If the numbers in those statements don't stack up, it's time for the members to grow their balls and ask the elected officers some difficult questions.

If, however, it's just one (or maybe more) individual(s) running a venue, and no formal club exists, (and I know of one or two of those) then they're running a business and are perfectly entitled to make a profit (if they can, and it's a big 'if'). However, in those circumstances, they should be submitting accounts and a tax return to HMRC.

S:0)

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:39 AM

I had a little difficulty in paying to go to a club where the organiser complained there was never enough money, booked guests every third month and then went on a holiday to some exotic location for 6 weeks.... Now I am aware that there may be other sources of income that pay for this holiday, but it does seem a little out of balance to me.....

The club I was involved in running spent its income on a guest every other week, sometimes a big name, sometimes a local performer. They spent very little on publicity, because it was done by a volunteer with access to a photocopier who then trapsed around the town putting them up regularly. All artwork was original and unpaid (unless you count a free pint once a year as payment), or provided by the guest artist themselves. Their bed and board if necessary, was provided by the organisers (thus giving me the chance to say I've slept in the same bed as Martin Carthy, the Kipper family, Jim Couza, Les Barker and Mrs Ackroyd!). We were a successful club but only because the majority of the work was provided voluntarily and we put together a varied guest list. Any profit there was at the end of the year was put towards booking a 'dream guest' - that very expensive but totally watchable person that would draw audience like jam draws wasps. Raffle prizes were donated and I know that one LP of bagpipe music went in 4 times in one year!

The festivals I've helped with have been similarly run, although grants from the local arts council do help considerably with boosting income. One particular festival made a point of spending that grant money on showcasing local and new performers, which to my knowledge boosted the careers of at least 3 'names' who went on to higher things. Any profit from that festival went straight back into starting the ball rolling for the following year.

In summary:~ clubs charge admission fees to cover room hire, publicity, guest hire, insurance fees and hospitality. If you want to see high profile names in a cosy and personal setting, you're going to have to pay for it - and pay considerably less than a festival or concert ticket in a draughty or stuffy concert tent or impersonal Albert Hall!

LTS

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM

Liz the Squeak wrote:

I've slept in the same bed as Martin Carthy, the Kipper family, Jim Couza, Les Barker and Mrs Ackroyd!

Wow, that's a big bed! :-D

Hope MC didn't keep you awake with all that tuning... ;-)

...I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: alanabit
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM

Just about any business proposition you can think of is more likely to make money than running a folk club. Even performers who are not doing it full time need money for gigs.
This week, on Thursday, I and my best friend will finish long working days, drive through the night from Cologne to Calais, get the ferry, and then drive to Cornwall. There are two small gigs there and then it is time for the drive home. We will get back most of our expenses. Don't ask a plumber to do that for you - he might refashion your nose! I have yet to meet the plumber who can learn my job in three years.
Most folk musicians - even those who are considered established professionals - make a fraction of what they would earn in any other profession. Even in the sixties/seventies heydays of folk clubs, that was the case. Folk clubs do their best to support folk artists, but it is a constant struggle for even the most successful. I am glad they exist at all and I don't begrudge them a penny.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM

Fork Handles

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

I'm glad the difference of opinion (and in what constitutes a folk-club) has been resolved.

Like Jed, I perform in a lot of folk club/coffee-houses such as Godfrey Daniels in Bethlehem, PA, Caffé Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY, and Club Passim in Cambridge, MA.
I incur travel, lodging and meal expenses.

The building are owned or rented by the club; they all have very fine PA and lighting systems, usually with a soundman. These all cost money.

As do advertising, print or electronic.
They sell coffee, tea, juices and cookies/brownies, etc. Minimal if any profit on these.

I work for a guarantee versus a percentage of the door.
Usually the percentage is greater than the guarantee, so it's profitable for me.
The balance of the percentage goes to the club to help defray its expenses.

On more than one occasion, due to weather usually, there has been a tiny turnout for the show, and so I didn't make the percentage.
I also refused to accept the guarantee, and just asked for gas and food expenses.
And I did the same show for the four people who showed up that I would have done for a full house. (I'm a performer for God's sake, and they're an AUDIENCE!!)

I believe in becoming a member of each folk club I work in, so I pay my annual membership fee, generally in the $10- $20 range.

The club uses membership fees to pay their performers, and all the other concomitant expenses.

So if a folk club charges admission fees, it's because they have to to stay in business.
At least here in the U.S.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:33 PM

Well, I'LL react to it, Leadfingers....*G*

...a Folk Club with only ONE Schoolteacher??? Well, now I've head EVERYTHING...

*G*

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM

Thanks Paul ! In fact there probably were more than the one I definately knew was a teacher - He was the only one there with a beard !!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

I'm glad this got cleared up, cuz I was going to jump in on my Beef Brother's behalf. He is one of the most caring and giving performers out there today. His songwriting will long outlive him, and he has paid his road dues. Anyone that would construe his comments as pompous or arrogant, or his motives as being those of a mercenary are acting from a place of ignorance of the facts. Good man, Villan, for your apology. I am happy to see the misunderstanding cleared.

I have a similar take as my other good buddy, Seamus Kennedy. (BTW, Ciara says tell Uncle Seamus "Hi", and Jed, too) I also join the clubs I play. I also tell them that my band, or I, will do a fundraiser free once a year. After that, if they are tight, I do the same percentage against the guarantee that Seamus does.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:32 PM

"Why do folk clubs charge an entrance fee?"

Maybe to pay the rent, publicity, electricity, heating, cleaning, etc. Perhaps some make donations to charities or even give some money to the occasional performer. Sometimes I'd guess the people who run the club would like to eat and stuff like that.

Hell, we have people in Canada who bitch about paying school tax because they have no kids in school or road tax because they don't drive. But, as a society we do benefit from education and roads. Seems like a foolish question to me.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM

Some pertinent facts regarding folk clubs in my local area, specifically those which book regular, or occasional, guest artists.

Audiences depend on the size of the room, and pubs with large rooms tend to want payment. I have been quoted from £10 to £50 per night. This means that the majority of clubs operate in rooms with a capacity of 20 to 30 people.

Admission charges range from about £2.00 to £5.00, depending largely on how often guests are booked. The cost of 1 to 2 pints of beer dosn't seem excessive, I'd say, for an period of entertainment generally as long as, or longer than, a local cinema or theatre charging much, much more.

The last club I helped organise raised about £20 to £25 pounds per week on singers nights, and almost always took a considerable loss on guest nights. Over time we averaged a small profit, which was ploughed back into financing extra guest nights, or more expensive guests, and providing an occasional free night with food (Christmas Party, or Club Birthday Party.

We did negotiate fees with artists, but only where their fee was outside of our budget by an amount that they were willing to discount.

Decent local acts would usually accept £70 to £80.
Well known acts charged between £120 and £200, which was our upper limit.
A very few artists, who could have charged £250+, have asked for fees at the lower end (e.g. Martin Carthy, Les Barker).
Clive Gregson asked what our setup was, and immediately cut £50 off his fee, as did Mundy-Turner.

Do the math, and you will see that this is a tricky balancing act, that would tax the talent of the Great Wallendas.

I have never, in 47 years, met an organiser who fully covered his phone or mail expenses, and I can remember nights when it snowed, or rained heavily, when I have had to empty my wallet, and raid my wife's handbag to cover the agreed fee.

I am very proud of the fact that no artist has left any club of mine with one penny less than was agreed.

As someone said above, if I went motor racing it would cost me thousands to operate for a year, so if I occasionally take a bath on a gig c'est la vie. The rewards come from the music.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:57 AM

That's the great and wonderful thing about people like Les and Martin, they know how they got to where they are and they will drop their fees according to the location.


I've even seen a well known name fill in a spot where a booked performer hadn't shown up (death in the family so we weren't angry), and refuse payment for it... unlike another incident where a performer turned up late, started late, upset her audience before they'd even got in their seats, consequently finished late and demanded overtime. She was never booked there again.

LTS

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:26 AM

I never made money running a folk club, and I charged a small door-fee and raffled records, too.

I was also present when an internationally known performer got quite nasty when the organiser (not me) hadn't the money to pay his fee, which was quite modest. The money was borrowed and the night went well, but it seems to me that even the best clubs (for audiences, anyway) tend to work hand-to-mouth.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:02 AM

Neither of the clubs I was involved with worked that hand to mouth, Gurney but I suppose we were cautious. The financial "problem" I remember was the one of once in a while wanting to spend money because we had an excess.

On the other hand, as one can see from Don's figures on artist fees, it wouldn't have been difficult to have broke ourselves if we always set our sights on bigger names.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:54 AM

That was always the trick, guest, to max out the entertainment value without overreaching.

Considering that you have to book guests at least six months ahead (the big names sometimes even more), it is surprising how infrequently we got it wrong.

I really can't claim a triumph of business acumen in that context. I'd say it was just dumb luck, mostly, but all the more pleasing for that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:59 AM

Interestingly, although Martin Carthy and Les Barker are well known for encouraging the grass-roots by in effect subsidising small non-profit clubs by lowering their fees, as far as I know Coope Boyes and Simpson, great though they are, would not drop, and on one occasion several years ago wanted no less than £300 to play even if they were passing on the way back from Germany on a wet Monday night with nothing else to do. It is of course quite a reasonable fee for them, but it was beyond the club in question.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:05 AM

When I had Les at my club, we did have to guarantee him a reasonable size minimum, plus 75% of what we took over that, which on the face of it sounds like a big risk for a small club like ours, but I felt quite confident that we would do well. We've had him in Australia before, and his popularity is so massive that at the National Folk Festival (which was the reason he was here), it is very hard to get close enough to see him. I knew I would get a good crowd, and we were pretty much booked to capacity before the day.

Everyone got a good deal. He was paid well over his guaranteed minimum, those who came were able to see him at close quarters, in comfort, with a coffee and a snack, and chat to him and look at his books in the break, and we finished the day by taking him out to dinner. Would that all our concerts went this well!

It is a balancing act most of the time, picking performers that you think will draw a crowd but at the same time, not overextending ourselves. Session nights do help us to stay on top.

One thing I have found is that a big name doesn't guarantee a big audience - you have to try and anticipate the sort of performer who will appeal to your audience. Sydney folk club audiences seem to be very conservative. No matter how good a performer is, and no matter how well known they are in other parts of the world, if they aren't well known here, it's very hard to get our audiences to come and see them. For instance, I couldn't invite Jed Marum, because with the exception of Mudcatters, not too many Australians know him. I couldn't promise him the kind of money he wants.

We have some very good local performers, but because the Sydney scene is quite small, a lot of them are a little too well known, and the boredom factor comes in.

On the other hand, an Australian performer, Paul Hemphill, always draws an excellent crowd for several reasons - he has a unique act with a lot of humour, he is a very polished performer, he doesn't perform all that frequently and we want to catch him when we can, and most of all, he has built up a following - he does a lot of advertising and promotion himself, which does seem to make a huge difference. I have actually had him at our club twice, because I know it is going to be a successful night, and, largely because of his own efforts, he has been paid extremely well, more than anyone else except for Les Barker.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:06 AM

I'd say it was a very reasonable fee for them and suggest that they had dropped from their usual - it's got to be divided by two remember. After a foreign tour, to delay getting back home by another night, putting your feet up and having some home-cooked grub must be worth something.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

Myself and DtG along with another person make an absolute fortune from Swinton Folk Club. That's why we all drive Beamers and Mercs and own holiday homes in Barbados. It's a doddle. All you have to do is make 40 people pay £100 each per night to watch an artist, pay said artist peanuts (say £70) and bingo. £200K p.a.split three ways (and we been running now for 25 years.)

s'easy peasy

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

ROFLMAO.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: the fence
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

You musta done sommat else with the money s the d, judging by the shorts I saw you in last, cos it didnt go on the 'armani' hahahaha

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM

it always amazed me when my lens frequented the folk clubs, the fees varied from a jug up to £10. A guest night (and depending on their fame)
can require a higher fee. Surely it is up to the audiance as to whether they wish to attend. A club will only grow and be well attended if the members recieve a good evenings entertainment. Entrance fees maybe a necessity in the 21st century, but it is still our choice as to pay or not.
I am associated with a club in SE london and yes we charge a fee £1 for a sing around and £2 for PA/guest night. That fee also allows a summer and autumn camp plus an xmas nights entertainment. With the exception of special guests when we may increase fee to £3.
Attendance and satisfaction is what makes a club.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Name witheld cos I need bookings!
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

£2 for a guest night? That's an insult to the guest and to the music. Compare the enjoyment to be had from an evening's entertainment by a good singer or player with a the enjoyment to be had from a night out at the cinema, or the theatre or even just eating a good meal - which will cost anything from £5-£25. By charging only £2 (even if you do in fact pay the guest a decent whack, which I bet you don't) you are merely endorsing the notion that folk music is a cheap, worthless art/activity - of even less value than a pint of beer.

Clubs that charge silly small amounts like this are always the worst to play at, because the audiences are always the least respectful. They tend to arrive late, leave early, pay less attention to the performer (no matter how good), and often sing and play badly too - putting off both newcomers and 'fans.'

It's dammed hard work making a living from folk music and artists deserve respect for their skills and knowledge. Charge what it's worth!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: woodsie
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:44 AM

Sounds about right to me.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

£2 for a guest night? That's an insult to the guest and to the music

Not at all. Different clubs have different ways of operating. The couple I was involved with (with about 2 exceptions over the years) charged nothing on a guest night.

I don't believe there is a single correct solution but every approach has it's problems. One you can get by upping or even charging instead of free is that the people who support you week in/week out get upset at being charged for entry, or you try a 2 pricing scheme and have a memberhip, etc. and find objections that way, etc.

The only thing I feel sure of with the clubs I was involved with is that our weekly support, ie. floor singers and listeners was worth rather more to us than a guest who decides how much others should be paying to hear him/her. Lose that and unless you want a concert style club (which I for one dislike), as far as I'm concerned, you have lost all.

The guest's value to me is precicely (again with a couple of exceptions - we have "all" known a bigger name charge an incredibly reasonable rate) what we have agreed to pay him or her. How we raise it and what we decided to charge on the night is our concern (at least provided the artist gets paid).

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:09 AM

Well if I charged amounts like that, I couldn't afford to have guests, and that's all there is to it. We have guests on most occasions, and we charge (Australian) $12 ($10 concession or for members of any folk organisation) on those nights. I think that translates into about 4 pounds and 3 pounds. On session nights it's a flat $5 (a bit less than 2 pounds). Some clubs in Sydney charge a bit more, and a couple who have mainly session nights charge less.

With overseas guests or guests who are especially sought after, the most I have charged is $15/$12. We take just enough to get by. I'm not in it for the money, but neither can I afford to subsidise it either. There was only one occasion when I really had to fork out to make up a deficit, for an overseas guest who demanded a minimum, and frankly, she wasn't wonderful enough to get the necessary bums on seats - good, but just not outstanding enough. It turned out to be only an average night. All a learning experience I guess.

I've thought about having more session nights, but we already have lots of opportunities for the regulars to do floor spots, and most seem to like the variety of guests and floorspots. We've been around for 9 years, so we must be doing something right!

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:19 AM

We've been around for 9 years, so we must be doing something right!

I suppose all in all between 2 places, my own experience was about 15 years, so I suppose we could make the same argument, Jenny...

Other things need to be taken into account with this sort of discussion btw. I'd imagane there is a vast difference between running a folk club in a big city like Sydney and in a small town in Wales.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

True Jon. Obviously what you are doing works where you are. It all makes the whole discussion a bit flawed really, because there are so many different situations being described here. Apparently the US idea of a folk club is very different from the UK idea. I suspect in Australia, a lot of our clubs are closer to the UK ones, but I don't think so many of ours are in pubs.

It's more likely that we will be operating from a space where we have to make everything happen, such as a hall. My club is in a unique space - not a pub, not a hall, but it is set up as a coffee shop. It operates as a coffee shop during the day, but it is not out in the street, so most people don't know about it. I could tell you more about it in a PM - it really is unique.

On the other hand, Sutherland Folk Club operates inside a licensed club which is different again. What I charge has to be somewhat on a par with what other clubs here are charging. Actually we are cheaper than most.

Am I right in thinking that your club has fewer guest nights and more session nights? That makes a difference. I suspect that yours being in a village makes a difference too. In Sydney there is a lot of entertainment out there. I think a higher proportion of city people expect to be entertained and pay for it. Another factor I think is that people have to travel further in Sydney to get to the folk clubs, and that has become more of an issue lately because of rising petrol prices. People are thinking long and hard before deciding to use up their expensive petrol to go out on a week night (Thursday in our case) and they won't do it unless they think it is worth their while.

So yes, there are lots of variables which all have to be balanced up and applied to each one's particular situation.

Subject: RE: Why do folk clubs charge admission fees?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

I could tell you more about it in a PM - it really is unique.

Please do.