dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Al
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 05:18 PM

Me too, Steve. But I'm trying, because I also sing best in the flat keys (usually, depending on the tune).

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: oggie
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

I find the problem is not just playing in the key but the fact that even though I can, my brain is so acclimatised to C/D/G/A/E that it seems to disconnect itself from my fingers! I play mandolin rather than fiddle but when I've tried retuning down a semitone I still cannot play an Eb song in D fingering. Same thing happens when I switch whistles, Harvest Home on an E whistle is a no-no even though the fingering is identical to a D whistle playing in D.

I have now learnt all the major and minor scales in closed positions on the mandolin (no open strings) but even this doesn't seem to help, I can only conclude that I have hard-wired my brain to 'folk' keys I am now doomed never to play in Eb.

All the best

oggie (aka Steve)

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:22 PM

If it's Baroque tuning (A=415), don't fix it!

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:18 PM

Jack, as a singer who plays, I would say you should not assume ego is involved other than the normal ego any performer has. I don't play in these keys to show off. I do it because it is where I can interpret the song the best. And I believe it is all about the song. In a session/song circle, that is one thing. In a band performance setting, or when I am in a concert setting with accompaniment, I expect the musicians I play with to come to the song, wherever that is. The purpose of the thread, as I originated it, was to find out if my demands are unreasonable. In a professional setting, I don't think so. In a song circle/session, it seems I should be a bit more accomodating, if possible.

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM

You can't retune all four strings of a fiddle and expect it to stay in tune immediately - there is a substantial settling-in time, which will be far longer than a typical song or medley. Fiddlers who routinely switch between A=440 and A=415 keep two instruments handy.

No matter how competent the fiddler, B flat will sound different from A. There will be different open strings.

I carry enough recorders and clarinets in different keys that I can welly into a piece in any key. This is a good way to keep ego-tripping singers in line (I am thinking of a guy who habitually tries to turn participatory sessions into a series of solo spots for himself and his guitar, capoed up to play in 4 or 5 sharps).

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:35 PM

I appreciate the compliments, certainly. But I'd say the most important thing by far in accompanying is to listen first--to know exactly how the singer is going to do it.   Don't assume you know. And if you guess wrong on an accompaniment, be ready to move--immediately-- to something better. (You can always claim it was a leading tone--leading to your second, better idea.)

Most important thing in accompanying is to not trample either the melody or the words. I find often a low harmony works well--or a countermelody that weaves around the melody--not too loud--but helping the song at end of phrases, for instance.

A famous accompanist--pianist, I believe, (Gerald Moore?), titled his autobiography "Am I Too Loud?"

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM

Mick, his training helps him, but fundamentally, it's his 'ear'. And yeah, I agree that Ron's very tasteful and skilled at accompanying songs. I'm a harmony freak myself, and I've never had any training.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:03 PM

Having had Ron accompany me on more than a few occasions, I would tell you that he absolutely has a handle on how to accompany a singer. He sits and looks for the key, listens to the meter and how the singer enunciates, and then hops in. I am usually elated when he jumps in. I love what he does, the color and vibrancy he brings to a song. And it doesn't seem to matter the key, he just gets it. Based on his comments, it seems that the training on viola, given its role, is why he adapts to such an excellent degree.

You can join in with me any time you want, Ron. One of the best in my opinion.

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Al
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:46 AM

In that case, yes, I agree.
Al

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM

But the question,, as I understand it, is about accompanying a singer--just doubling the melody is often not desirable--and a harmony--that pleases the singer--often is.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Al
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:34 AM

As a non-linear fiddler, it makes me nuts when another fiddle chimes in with nothing but harmony. I hate it. Except maybe for slow tunes like waltzes, where it can sound great. Often times I think others do the harmonies because they don't know how the tune really goes, or what the tune is trying to say, or how to second properly.
Al

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:26 AM

As another violist, I'd say that working out a harmony or countermelody is just a question of listening to the original tune. (Admittedly, violists may well be more used to harmonies than fiddlers are--after all, aside from Harold in Italy, the second movement of Beethoven's 7th and a few more--that's basically what we get.)

But after 2 or 3 hearings it shouldn't be that difficult for anybody with a good ear--regardless of key.

One hint is that if the key doesn't use open strings, it's often easier to make up a harmony in 3rd position --(or something similar)---which by definition doesn't use any open strings.

Naturally, slower songs--which sound like what Mick is talking about--would be easier than faster tunes.

Of course it happens that I love harmonies--and love making them up.

But, as I say, it should be possible for anybody--just don't expect perfection the first time.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:13 AM

Its definately having frets that make ALL the difference ! I 'busk along' with a number of singers and musicians at The Tap , in all sorts of keys , mostly on mandolin and find that WITH practice , the 'silly' keys are a lot easier , though if I didnt have frets it would be a HELL of a lot harder !
One Fiddler I Gig with (Five years at Guildhall School of Music) is QUITE happy playing tunes in ALL the keys , BUT he is a Smart Arse !!

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:45 PM

Although, in theory, you can play in any key at all on a fiddle (including scales that are impossible on fretted instruments), you do have to be familiar with the fingering. As a rule, keys that aren't commonly used in dance tunes will therefore be unfamiliar and, although they aren't difficult in themselves, the average fiddler may not be able to improvise in those keys off the top of his or her head.

My own feeling is that, if a singer-guitarist wants to sing and play in a little-used key, that's fine; so long as he or she understands that what for him or her is just a question of moving a capo and playing (for instance) standard C chords, may mean an accompanist struggling with unfamiliar fingering in something really quite peculiar.

If guitarists would take the trouble to learn to play their instruments in keys in which they are able to sing, or to sing in keys in which they are able to play, then life would be simpler for everybody. The invention of the capo has unfortunately given guitarists the impression that they don't need to bother to learn how to play their instrument properly, and that everybody else just ought to be able to play in any key imaginable in order to suit them.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM

Mick has working PMS?
No wonder he's been so cranky lately.

Seamus

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

Mick,

Have you asked Natalie why??

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:26 AM

Hi Mick. Here's some more to consider from a humble fiddler who stays away from Eb and Bnat (though I will do Bb sometimes when feeling ambitious).

You said, when Russ had said your request was like asking a guitarist to play any key without capo:

"Fair enough, Russ. And I understand that, but it isn't really the same. A fiddle is a single note instrument, and a guitar is a chorded instrument. When I am playing melody lines, it isn't that big a thing to move around the neck on the guitar, bouzouki, etc. It seems to me, and I say this with great respect for the fiddle, but it is a matter of working with other scales, as opposed to chord construction."

I don't think it's fair to equate moving a melody line around a fiddle keyboard with moving it around a guitar neck, because the guitar is fretted. You can see where your finger is supposed to go, and you have a little range of string you can use to hit the note cleanly. On the fiddle, you don't have the visual clue or the margin of error.

For fiddlers - well, for me, anyway - contrary to popular belief, the correct stopping points are not found by ear, but by feel. When you are first learning a note, then yes, you do trial and error by ear to learn where to stop the string. But when you are playing, muscle memory kicks in - your fingers just know where to land, because they've done it so many times before. If I pick up my fiddle and hold it in position, I can put my finger down on a D note without plucking or bowing the string - I don't need to hear it, because I've learned how far to reach.

But if the song calls for a Eb, my hands don't know where it is automatically, because I need Eb so seldom. To play the Eb would require trial and error by ear - which I don't want to do when playing socially. So I'd sit that tune out.

I'm sure that I could learn it by muscle memory with enough practice practice practice, as Stewart points out. So why don't I? Well, for what I do (fiddle is for fiddle tunes, guitar is for accompanying singing), the costs would outweigh the benefits. If I were in Natalie's position - in a band, and using fiddle to accompany a singer - then it would make sense for me to learn to play in any key. But for me, considering my time limitations and playing goals, it doesn't make sense.

Marion



PS to Mick: are your PMs working? I've sent you a couple over the last few months, and haven't heard back.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:32 AM

The advice above about fiddlers practising so that every key is the real key to the problem (sorry 'bout that) and it sounds like Mick's Natalie is a treasure.

The info about retuning the fiddle, however, can be helpful in some situations. A festival (now almost 45 years old) I go to at Christmas is located where the locals have traditionally played single row melodeons, in C, for most of the last hundred years. Concertinas fit in OK with the locals (some of whom play them and one of whom makes them) and guitarists are either equipped with capos or superior skills.

Fiddlers fit into a couple of categories. Those who've mastered their fingering use their onstruments as they are while others (some of whom could easily play in any key they want) 'take a holiday' and retune the fiddle so that their tunes in D fall out happily in C with no changes. Fine if the tunes in C are all 'originally' in D, but those 'originally' in G or A, or which modulate between keys, still require refingering.

I have noticed, at this festival, that some fiddlers take up other instruments if they want to play along with the C boxes. Or they just put their instruments down and get stuck into the dancing instead.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:08 AM

Stewart, the late, great Sean Maguire, Irish fiddler nonpareil used to do that little trick too, in concert and in a session. Going up a half-step each time around.
It was a hoot in a session to see guitarists sliding capos up the neck trying to keep up with him.
Of course he had the best of both worlds - classically trained, yet an amazing ear.
To hear him throwing Grappelli-like jazz licks into an irish fiddle tune was a thing of beauty.Probably my favorite fiddler along with Stephane Grapelli, Joe Venuti, Alastair Fraser, Hugh Farr, John Taylor, Woody Paul, Buddy Spicher and a few others.

Seamus

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:52 PM

Not necessarily. Mick has a bodhran, and if I'm irritated enough... Then again, if I'm that miffed, I can just play along in D. As the big guy says: *SNERK*.

And yes, it does sound like you're lucky, Mick.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM

Accompaniment is a specialised skill, with many hidden secrets - you have just learnt one...

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:35 PM

For me, and what spawned this thread, it depends on the song. If I can deliver the song to a standard I can live with, pitching up or down a half step, then I will gladly do so for the accompaniment. But many songs I sing have a powerful message, and I am not willing to sacrifice my ability to deliver them for maximum effect. I am fortunate to have a woman in my band (the formidable Natalie) who might moan a bit, but is gifted and trained, and can deliver what I need. What this thread has really shown me is that I am fortunate, and she is very talented.

Thanks for all the input,

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

I think that the point is, some fiddlers are competent in all keys and some aren't. Some keys are easier to play in than others. If I'm polite, when you start singing in Eb, I'll just put the fiddle away.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Stewart
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:25 PM

As a singer I need to get the song in a suitable key for my vocal range. But I am also mindful of the instrumentalists who might like to join in, and I often play fiddle in between verses. Many fiddle tunes are pitched too high for my baritone voice, so I need to transpose them down when I sing. But I try to choose keys that are in instrumental-friendly keys depending on what other instruments are present.

Of course if I want to sing unaccompanied, I could sing a quarter tone below any particular key. Some guitarists/singers who don't want others joining in have been known to tune their instruments down a quarter tone.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:50 PM

BTW, in Oz here, apparently some Muslim children are being removed from music classes because their parents have been convinced that it is an evil thing against the teachings of the Koran to learn a musical instrument - teaching of basic music is an integral part of Aussie curriculum = something about helping with learning skills.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

My music teacher transposed all my singing pieces for the eisteddford - never got better than 2nd place though...

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Kaleea
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Yes, Stu, you are missing something. Just as there are differences in how easy or difficult it is to finger, say a stringed instrument, in one key or another because one has to constantly jump around from position to position & string to string, or, say, a trombone can't do a glissando upward beginning on a note which is played with the slide really close to the mouthpiece instead of way out there, so also, voices differ.
One's Tessitura is not just about the range of notes which are better for one's voice, but also about how sometimes one's voice literally works better & sounds better in particular keys. While my voice can be lousy in the key of D, the same exact song will sound magnificent in Db--or at least it did when I was younger.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

The idea that fiddlers traditionally play in certain keys may be true, but what keys those are depends entirely upon what tradition you're talking about. Bluegrass fiddlers routinely play in B natural. They may all prefer to play in G, but when Mr. Monroe decided he liked singing in B it was "learn it or leave the band". On the other hand, a country or blues fiddler may spend a lot if time playing in E major while a an old-time fiddler can live his entire life without playing an E major tune. And I've played with Cape Breton style fiddlers whose medleys have certainly included tunes in Bb and F. It's all in what you get used to.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Stewart
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:17 PM

Back to Eb and Bb - I have heard Vivian Williams, a talented old-time fiddler here in Seattle, start a tune in the key of C, and then proceed to play it in C# and then D and in keys, each a half tone higher up the chromatic scale until she got back to C, an octave higher. And her intonation was right on each time. It's obviously a musical parlor trick, but quite impressive.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

Seamus, sweetums, you're the songwriter, but I see an amusing ditty about an entertaining little disaster.

THE STICKY WICKET

I roved out one morning, I roved out one day
A-wearin me kilt the traditional way
I met with two ladies, and one asked stright away,
"Sir, would you fancy a game of croquet?"

Ring-a-ding, ring-a-dong
With me mallet and balls
I did play along

(Of course, there's a version of "Hang on the Bell, Nellie" to be written, but that's not Irish.)

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: s&r
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM

I find it hard to understand how someone can be more comfortable in anyy particular key. What matters is the range of the tune - a tune can be in Eb and have a top note higher than another tune in (say) G. It might be nice if often repeated notes are where your voice is best. I can't see why baritones should favour flat keys or anything similar. Am I missing something?

Stu

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:13 AM

"Can't you just tune the fiddle up a semitone so the fiddler is using A fingering for Bflat and D fingering for Eflat?"

It seems a good idea, but only works for guitars because guitar players - who have fixed frets to guide them - are tone deaf anyway! Violinists get their pitch by listening, and they might have a brain implosion...

I'm not making this up you know...

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:34 AM

Can't you just tune the fiddle up a semitone so the fiddler is using A fingering for Bflat and D fingering for Eflat? Seen it done when playing with bagpipes and the fiddler had another fiddle in normal tuning when not playing with the pipes.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:21 AM

Stewart, you are right of course.
Non-classically trained fiddlers xan master the othere keys.
It all comes down to practice, practice, practice.
But again, I'm speaking from personal experience when I say that the three or four classically trained violinists I've performed with could not play without the dots until they'd memorized the pieces.

Seamus

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Al
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM

I think Bb exists on the fiddle. Eb, I don't know.

It's my observation that folks who can play in all keys on the violin can't fiddle very well. There are exceptions.

Al

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Stewart
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:00 AM

Em, no problem - same as Gmajor (just one sharp). Bmajor I can't even contemplate!

Back to Eflat and Bflat -
"Classically trained violinists would have no trouble with the fingering, but in my experience, they would have difficulty playing without the dots in front of them."
Not necessarily true. Most non-classically trained fiddle players play mostly in D and G and perhaps A and the related minors. All they have to do is start playing some "flat key" tunes and their fingers will soon know what to do. It's just a matter of doing until it becomes just as comfortable as D and G and A. Then there's no need for the dots, it's in your fingers.

As for singing, I'm also a singer and often prefer the flat keys for my vocal range (baritone). So I can easily transcribe many songs that I also play on the fiddle into those keys, without any reference to the dots.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:30 PM

On our last trio recording, we had two songs where we wanted a viola part. One of the songs was in Em, the other in B major (5 #'s). Our viola player was raised in the folk realm (her parents sang on a couple of the early golden ring recordings), but played with the Chicago Lyric Opera Orchestra. She did work out a great part for the Em tune, with no problem and could do some nice embellishments around it. The B major tune she said she could play but the part would not have the same flow. She did a great job on both of them, but you can tell that one is a more "formal" part.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

Mick, on the subject of scrota: we hear a lot of nasty, sexist jokes about older women and their boobs hanging down to their knees. How come we never hear any nasty, sexist jokes about older men with their scrota dangling down to their knees (or beyond)?

Give my best to the talented Miss Natalie.

Guinness - isn't that a female Italian?

Seamus

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:19 PM

Seamus ..... My evening Guinness (or two .... maybe three ... OK ... Guinni) is now all over the friggin screen.

Trouble with guys like us whose scrota descended early, is that as we age, they keep descending. Damned embarassing.

Seamus, you have just explained why Natalie, whom you have played with (Music, dammit, get your mind out of the .... naw, leave it there) can handle my keys (shit, I am getting in more trouble by the minute).... She is classically trained, but came over from the dark side to trad stuff.

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

"One solution - just use bagpipe accompaniment. *G*"

Brilliant! the no one can tell what key you are trying to sing in, cause no one can hear you!

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

Mick, you and I are both baritones, and Eb and Bb are the keys we're most comfortable in.
Unlike those sissy tenors, great big guys whose scrota have not yet descended, singing in their whingey, kitteny C & F.
Look at Pavarotti, for God's sake! The size of the man! He should be a bass.

Anyway, back to your question; Bb and Eb are awkward keys for traditional fiddlers, or mandolinists, or tenor-banjoists due to the fingering of most trad tunes.
Classically trained violinists would have no trouble with the fingering, but in my experience, they would have difficulty playing without the dots in front of them.

One solution - just use bagpipe accompaniment. *G*

Seamus

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:49 PM

"I'm self taught. Someone trained classically probably wouldn't have that much of a problem, but I do. I can play slowly (sort of like a cello accompaniment) in Eb or Bb, but don't ask me to play a break or play quickly."

"Classic Music" Violinists, and indeed any instrumentalists, are trained to play in any key (and 'sight read' from the music!) - that is one of the reasons for practising 'scales' (and all the other exercises like arpeggios, etc!) in all 36 Major and both types of Minor keys....

And the secret is:

Practice!
Practice!
Practice!

:-)

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Stewart
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

The "flat keys" - F (1 flat), Bflat (2 flats), Eflat (3 flats) are great keys for the fiddle in my opinion. They are not hard if you just play in them for a while to get your fingers accustomed to them. By contrast E major (4 sharps)is difficult since you can't use the open D string but have to sharp it with the first finger, then use the same finger up a little further for the E. I think most fiddle player don't like to play in the key of Emajor. So I avoid any keys with more than 3 flats or 3 sharps.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:37 PM

Kaleaa, I think I love you!!! And Phil Cooper too!!! That half step does make a difference in the performance of the song. I can do it, but it isn't that spot that works best for me. Sometimes I accomodate, but I have often wondered how difficult it really is. When I insisted that Natalie do it in the key I was looking for, she was able to put it together in a fairly short time.

Jeri, you can whack me in the head with a banjo, but only if you wear that cute little chicken outfit and talk in Esperanto to me ........LOL.

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:09 PM

Mick,
As a Music Educator, choir/band/orchestra director, voice teacher, singer etc. of well over 30 years, Quite often, the best keys for singing are flat keys! I can assure you that you are completely normal, and a good instrumentalist should be able to play in a variety of keys.      
"Traditional" Musicians can sometimes complain about this as, and this is a common cause for difficulty between Musicians. When one plays in the key of F major or d minor, one uses Bb, and certainly if one can play in keys with all of those sharps, then one must be good enough to ascertain where the flats are. There are certainly plenty of tunes with accidentals.
Much of the time, we accommodate "them" by playing in the Trad/Bluegrass/whathaveyou keys. It is only fair that they stretch their Musicianship a little to accommodate you.

I have been playing Guitar since I was a teenager, I am still only 5 ft tall, with quite short arms & fingers. Much shorter than any Traditional Guitarist or Guitar student who has complained to me about Bar chords, I daresay. I can't even wrap my thumb around the neck for the 5th & 6th strings as many pickers do. Yet, I play bar chords! I play Bar chords in whatever key is called for! I even play Beatles songs in the John & Paul Keys! I also have a fiddle which I don't play that well. I can saw out a few tunes. Sometimes I saw along with a Bagpipe CD-in the keys of Bb, Eb, et al.
I know it is not always easy to embrace a new concept when it involves a little practicing, but I say to all those who stand in that rut to dare to break your mind out of the "Bluegrass Keys only" mentality & stop being intimidated by Flats! Don't be a weenie armed Musician. They're all right there next to the naturals. Some Flats in Bb & Eb are even the same exact notes as some of the Sharps you already play. Dare to be different! Become a better Musician, and don't let any key cause a panic attack again.
   What, I ask, is more traditional than a Piper playing in Bb?

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:07 PM

As Jeri said, Bb does have some open strings that can be used. Scott Skinner composed quite a few tunes in Bb. Sometimes the voice just sounds right in keys like Eb or Bb, however and that half step up or down might make a difference in delivery. Now B natural, that's a tough key for fiddles.

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

I'm self taught. Someone trained classically probably wouldn't have that much of a problem, but I do. I can play slowly (sort of like a cello accompiniment) in Eb or Bb, but don't ask me to play a break or play quickly. Most likely, I just won't play.

I don't understand why a half step is that difficult, but will take your word that it is. Perhaps re-tining the fiddle would help, but if I tune down so it feels like D but is really Eb, then the A string is a B. To play in Bb (which isn't that hard in standard tuning), I'd have to use the fingering for G#, which is a bugger-and-a-half, and would necessitate me whacking you upside the head with somebody else's banjo. If your fiddler had two fiddles, it might be the best. (If only because it's not always easy to get a banjo away from it's owner.)

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM

Now we are getting somewhere. I don't play fiddle, although I have a perfectly fine one here in the house. I wondered what it was that made it so difficult. Perhaps this scordiatura is what Natalie is doing already. I don't think so, because she isn't retuning.

Mick

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM

For Eb, try asking them to routinely tune down a half-step and then to play as if they are in E. I believe that doing that is called scordiatura.

What you do by going to keys they don't play routinely is screw up their fingering patterns. In brief-- way oversimplified-- fiddles are tuned to make certain fingerings (intervals) humanly possible. Anyhow, try asking them to do as I suggest and see what happens.

~Susan

Subject: RE: dat fiddle, can 'Eb out Bb, mate?
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

Those keys involve playing in the "closed position" where no open strings are usually played. Eb and Bb harder to play because you are using all 4 fingers on the strings.