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BS: Right to Workgate

Old Guy 30 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM
DougR 30 Aug 06 - 11:52 PM
Big Mick 31 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM
Sorcha 31 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM
Old Guy 31 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM
dianavan 31 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM
Old Guy 31 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM
Richard Bridge 31 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM
John MacKenzie 31 Aug 06 - 06:30 AM
Big Mick 31 Aug 06 - 06:32 AM
Bobert 31 Aug 06 - 07:26 AM
Bobert 31 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM
Big Mick 31 Aug 06 - 08:16 AM
John MacKenzie 31 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,number 6 31 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,number 6 31 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM
Big Mick 31 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM
Bobert 31 Aug 06 - 10:32 AM
kendall 31 Aug 06 - 12:08 PM
Old Guy 31 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM
number 6 31 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM
Barry Finn 31 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM
kendall 31 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM
dianavan 31 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM
DougR 31 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM
Old Guy 31 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM
Big Mick 31 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM
Old Guy 31 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 06 - 07:35 AM
Old Guy 01 Sep 06 - 08:38 AM
catspaw49 01 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM
Greg F. 01 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM
kendall 01 Sep 06 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,number 6 01 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,number 6 01 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM
catspaw49 01 Sep 06 - 10:46 AM
Big Mick 01 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM
Bobert 01 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM
Barry Finn 01 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM
catspaw49 01 Sep 06 - 08:37 PM
number 6 01 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM
dianavan 02 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM
Old Guy 02 Sep 06 - 12:48 AM
dianavan 02 Sep 06 - 12:58 AM
number 6 02 Sep 06 - 01:22 AM
kendall 02 Sep 06 - 06:58 AM
Bobert 02 Sep 06 - 08:21 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM
Big Mick 02 Sep 06 - 10:50 AM
kendall 02 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Marty 04 Sep 06 - 04:52 AM
kendall 04 Sep 06 - 07:43 AM
Big Mick 04 Sep 06 - 10:55 AM
Old Guy 04 Sep 06 - 07:08 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM
Old Guy 05 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM
Old Guy 06 Sep 06 - 12:36 AM
Barry Finn 06 Sep 06 - 12:57 AM
kendall 06 Sep 06 - 06:58 AM
Greg F. 06 Sep 06 - 09:23 AM
kendall 06 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM
Old Guy 06 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM
Old Guy 06 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM
curmudgeon 06 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM
kendall 06 Sep 06 - 07:32 PM
kendall 06 Sep 06 - 07:35 PM
kendall 06 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 06 - 08:02 PM
Old Guy 06 Sep 06 - 10:07 PM
Old Guy 06 Sep 06 - 11:40 PM
Old Guy 07 Sep 06 - 12:38 AM
Bobert 07 Sep 06 - 07:44 AM
kendall 07 Sep 06 - 08:24 AM
Old Guy 08 Sep 06 - 01:39 AM
kendall 08 Sep 06 - 07:21 AM
Old Guy 08 Sep 06 - 03:38 PM
Greg F. 08 Sep 06 - 07:11 PM
Bobert 08 Sep 06 - 08:04 PM
kendall 08 Sep 06 - 09:32 PM
Bobert 09 Sep 06 - 08:08 AM
Old Guy 10 Sep 06 - 12:31 AM
Bobert 10 Sep 06 - 09:25 AM
Old Guy 11 Sep 06 - 01:41 PM
Barry Finn 11 Sep 06 - 01:53 PM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 12:32 AM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM
kendall 12 Sep 06 - 08:23 AM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM
kendall 12 Sep 06 - 03:45 PM
Greg F. 12 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM
kendall 12 Sep 06 - 07:25 PM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 12:51 AM
dianavan 13 Sep 06 - 02:05 AM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM
Greg F. 13 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM
Leadfingers 13 Sep 06 - 01:55 PM
Leadfingers 13 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM
toadfrog 13 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM
Susu's Hubby 13 Sep 06 - 10:53 PM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 11:31 PM
kendall 14 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM
Old Guy 14 Sep 06 - 01:43 PM

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Subject: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

It has come to my attention that some people are attacking the Right to work law and trying to portray it as a bad thing.

What the law does is it gives the worker the right to decide if they want to pay wages to a trade union or not.

It seems like a civil right to me and if a trade union forces one to pay for something they don't want, it is a violation of civil rights.

...Between 1970 and 2000 non-right-to-work states lost 2.3 million manufacturing jobs. Michigan alone shedded 100,000 jobs. But right-to-work states over the same period gained 1.4 million manufacturing jobs.

Part of the reason for this is the fact that right-to-work states have http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=5937lower labor costs — the average right-to-work state has nearly 5 percent lower per-unit labor costs than the average state without a right-to-work law. But this doesn't mean such laws penalize workers in order to benefit employers.

In fact, workers themselves benefit from right-to-work laws. New jobs mean more demand for labor, which nudges wages higher. And when the cost of living in right-to-work states vs. non-right-to-work states is taken into account, workers in right-to-work states are the winners.

In fact, George Mason University economist James Bennett found in 1994 that after adjusting for the cost of living and taxes, workers in right-to-work states took home over $2,800 more each year than workers in non-right-to-work states. In 2001 David Kendrick of the National Institute for Labor Relations Research did similar calculations for nine Midwestern states and found that take-home pay was higher under right-to-work laws....


More here

What do you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:52 PM

Unions have been fighting "Right to Work" laws since ...forever. They will continue to do so because union dues pay the salaries of Union executives. 'sa fact of life.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

Once again you both show your prejudices and your ignorance of these laws.

Unions don't oppose right to work laws, they oppose unfair right to work laws. These laws are not about workers rights, they are about undermining democracy. You see, in this form of government, there are many things one must do that they don't want to. I would prefer not to pay taxes to support a war I don't believe in. I would prefer not to pay taxes to pay the wages of right wing legislators who consistently vote against my best wishes. But in our form of government, I must go along with the majority. That is the way it is. You don't get to pick which laws you follow.

The law of this land, in order to provide for commerce to flow freely, (that's right folks, labor law is based on free flow of commerce)says that if a majority of the workers vote to have a union, then the union is the official collective bargaining representative. The employer must deal with that rep. That is done in a democratic, government supervised, secret ballot vote. All employees must follow the wishes of the majority and join the union, or if they choose not to join, then pay a service fee. Why? Because the union is obligated to represent them, and they get the benefits, such as health insurance, pension, and representation, just like everyone. There are costs associated with this.

So right to work laws, on their face are unfair. Why? Because these laws are always passed with a provision that says the union must still represent these folks even if they are not members. That's right, even if they choose not to belong or pay dues, we must still represent them. There in lies the answer to what these laws are really about. I would prefer not to have these laws, but if they said that one could choose not to be a member and they are on their own, then fine. But in right to work states, let's say someone decides they don't want to join the union. Then the boss fires them, or decides not to give them a pay raise, or screws with their schedule. Do I, as the union rep, have to respresent them and fight for them? You would think not. That would be fair. But the right to work laws say I must still represent them, even though they haven't paid cent one in dues. That means the folks that are members have to subsidize those who choose not to contribute their fair share.

These laws are not about fairness or democracy. They are about breaking unions and denying workers democracy in the workplace. Why does the right fund this big organization know as Right To Work? Because it means more in their pockets and less for the people who make the product.

Once more, Old Guy and DougR show their true colors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM

Thank you Mick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

You can't excape death, taxes and union dues. Right?

So how many times have union pensions been robbed?
How many "representatives" have taken bribes and kickbacks?
How many times has the union extorted money from companies for "protection"?
How many unions are controlled by organized crime?

And last but not least, where is Jimmy Hoffa?

This scratches the surface of how unions rip off the workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM

Old Guy -

Unions provide more than fair take-home pay.

They recognize seniority and fair hiring practices.

They pay pensions and health insurance.

They provide sick leave and maternity leave.

They also provide legal support if you are being harassed.

They provide an opportunity to actually bargain for wages and benefits.

They provide protection for employees who would otherwise be exploited by their employers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM

And they have driven manufacturing offshore. Murdered people, extorted money, taken kickbacks, bribes and raided pension funds.

"more than fair take-home pay" Yes more than fair, too much, which runs manufacturing to other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

We had this in the UK, under that evil woman Thatcher. We have still not yet properly got rid of it.

The purpose of these laws is to reduce union funding, so that capital may the more readily exploit labour. They are a war on workers and the rights of workers.

What Old Guy and Doug R will achieve by their apparent aims is to reduce the American worker to the slave wages and miserable status of the workers in Africa, India, and the far East, to force each American worker to cut his co-worker's throat to survive.

The "trickle down" economics aka Reaganomics the two little hitlers above espouse are a myth. The rich get richer, and the poor are ground further into the dirt.

By all means rid the world (unions and capital alike) of corruption, if you can. But don't make it an excuse to disenfranchise the worker. Remember the murders by the bosses in the American mining strikes. Go, even, and read the words of "The Miners' Lifeguard".

In England we remember the Tolpuddle Martyrs - executed and transported for starting collective action for the commoner, while the collective action by the bosses went unpunished.

Someone make me a Molotov cocktail please. I am starting to feel the need to take the war to the oppressors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:30 AM

If you want to stop jobs being driven offshore, work to ensure that the workers in India, China, and Malaysia receive a decent working wage. Only by making retailers pay realistic prices for the goods they sell, will you bring work back to your own shores.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:32 AM

Old Guy,

Is your answer to stopping employers offshore to import the conditions facing workers in the Third World?

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, but then again you aren't acting above board. You have an agenda which has you use cute little cliche's to make your point. We often refer to folks like you as "a mile wide and a half inch deep.

Manufacturing goes offshore for a couple of reasons. The first is to escape regulation. You remember regulations, those nasty little things that say workers shouldn't be exposed to dangerous chemicals and dangerous working conditions? Those nasty little regulations that say kids should be in school and not working 6 twelve hour days? Or that governments shouldn't use prisoners to make products and take away jobs from decent folk.

Unions didn't drive business offshore. Manufacturers went offshore for one reason. Increased profit. Remember the days when northern businesses moved to the southern US to escape unions? Remember what happened? They were there for a while, then decided to go to Mexico. Then later they decided to head for the Pacific Rim. It wasn't about unions, that was just the red herring they tossed out. It was about corporate greed.

Remember the old days when an employer, so long as they could pay themselves a decent salary, maybe show a profit, they would stay in business out of loyalty to the people that made their product? Today they will close the doors and move offshore, not because they are unprofitable. Often they are making record profits, but can make more offshore, but gosh we are sorry we have to take you and your families livelihood away.

And all the while your buddies in the Republican party continue to pass laws that don't protect US workers, but make it easier for industrialists to ship our jobs away.

pdq doesn't like it when I attack your views. Tough shit. It is long past the time to drop the gloves. Your views are dangerous to working families.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:26 AM

14(b), i.e. "right to work states" represent a large majority of the poorest states...

Just check out these so called right-to-work states in terms of greatest percentage of folks living in poverty:

Lousiana 1st

Mississippi 2nd

Alababma 6th

Texas 7th

Oklahoma 8th

Arkansas 9th

Arizona 10th

South Carolina 12th

North Carolina 13th

Idaho 15th

Tenessee 16th

Georgia 19th

Florida 20th

So, bottom line, if yer lookin' to be poor, find yourself a good ol' right-towork state... That are loopsidedly loaded with pooor folks...

(Source: US Census Departemnt)...

Yeah, lotta folks complain about unions but if uit hadn't been for the labor movement alot of these folks would now now be sittin' in front of their computers but still workin' in Boss Hog's widget factory...

Bottom line: right-to-work = poverty...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

Plus, Old Guy, why the "gate"???

Bush has messed up a lot of stuff but he doesn't get the blame for 14(b)...


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:16 AM

Just watched a Today Show segment. Topic? American workers making much less money, with more work being done, and Employers making record profits and the economy booming. Tell you anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM

If it's the same as the UK it tells me that the increasing number of migrant workers legeal and illegal are so desparate that they are working for less than the minimum wage, so the employers make more profit.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM

Some unions are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

Some corporations are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

.
.

some humans are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM

One of the issues that results in 'corporate greed' is the return of value for the share holders ... in the U.S. and Canada many baby boomers are scrambling to make gains in their upcoming retirement ... notably in pension funds .... it is these pension funds that demand a high yeild of return, i.e. high high corporate profits are required .... it should be noted that many of these funds directly related to private investment, coporate pension plans and union pension plans .... all are out for their own intersts, with out little thought given to the consequences.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

Fair enough, number 6. But your statement is too general. One way to look at whether an organization is corrupt and vulnerable to being ripped off, or overly vulnerable to criminal conspiracy, is to look at a couple of factors. One would be the rate charged to bond its officers. Examination of this data, calculated and tabulated by scientist called actuaries and whose job it is to calculate risk of loss, will show that union officials have the lowest rates available. Much lower than CEO's, business owners, and even members of the clergy. Another would be to contrast the number of indictments for these crimes against the total number of Unions in this country. It is another way of looking at the same data. Again you will find that unions are run very efficiently and in the interests of their members. A third way, oddly enough spawned by Right to Work, is to look at the amount of the monthly dues that unions are allowed to charge non members who are covered by a union contract but choose not to join. This figure is arrived at annually by independent audit. The unions must justify all "chargeable" expenses, and the final figures are subject to review by the Department of Labor. Non chargeable expenses would be money spent on political activities, community service activities, and anything that isn't directly related to the bargaining of contracts and implementation and compliance with the contract. In almost every case the number comes out above 88% and in many cases comes out 95%. So much for the arguments about corruption and wasting money, as well as wasting money on politics.

A sign of intellectual dishonesty is when a person pulls out spectacular examples of something that demonstrates their point, even in the face of empiric evidence to the contrary. They use it to pander to perceptions when the facts fail them. The term for this is demagogery. Either by intent or ignorance, it is what you see when you read Old Guy and DougR's views on this matter. Using the Hoffa story in one example of what I am talking about.

Are unions perfect? Nope. Are they free of corruption? Nope. In both cases there are very few examples of any institutions or leaders in a free society that are. But they are the only real advocates out there for the American middle class. Their special interest is the living and working conditions of the American family in this country, and all over the world. We feel that an injury to a worker anywhere is an injury to all. We feel that someone must stand up against the perceptual onslaught by monied interests on worker representation, which spawns the uninformed or dishonest opinions such as those of Old Guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:32 AM

High rates of return and unreasonably high rates on returns are two different beasts...

Most baby boomers who have worked hard and played by the rules can live with a %5 rate quite nicely, unless of course they aren't finished trying to consume as much as they possibly can... But I'd take 5% and with alittle Social Security and Medicaid, I'd be okay... And I'm probably a lot like a lot of boomers...

Double digit rates only screw the younger workers... We are allready doing that by asking them to produce more for less money... That, unfortunately is the flip side of "high" rates of returns...

Also, returns can get mixed up with debt sometimes so folks think they are doing fine but don't realize it that the levels of returns are artificially being propped up with layers of unseen corporate debt... Yeah, Enron hasn't put an end to cookin' of books and artifical profits...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:08 PM

So, who pardoned Hoffa? Nixon, pandering to the unions.

"Right to work" another silly phrase. It should be, right to enjoy all the benefits of a union shop without kicking in a dime. Parasites.
Raids on the pension funds? How often does that happen, and what if there were no pension funds? Who wants to go back to the dark ages when a man could be worked to death for peanuts while the bosses got filthy rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM

Were are the rest of the right to work states and how do they rank?

Also how the non right to work states rank?

I never said I had a way to keep manufacturing from moving off shore.

It's up to the American people to boycott foreign goods like Hondas and Kubotas.

It is the same way with the high price of gas. We have to drill and refine here in the US and we have to quit driving gas hogs. Because of whiney babies like the Bob Graham in Florida, Directly related to the WAPO, China is drilling off shore of the US where we are not allowed to drill>

Graham said: "The debate over whether to expand domestic exploration obscures the imperative that drilling off our coasts must be regarded as the last resort, not the first resort.

"To [ become energy self-sufficient ], we would have to reduce domestic production, not increase it," Graham said. "Such a reduction would serve as a powerful engine that accelerates conservation and the development of alternative energy sources.


Where is Hoffa? Why would anybody want to harm such a great man?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM

"Who wants to go back to the dark ages when a man could be worked to death for peanuts while the bosses got filthy rich."

Well, we could go back to the days when we all farmed the land ... reaping the rewards of tilling the crops and practising good husbandry ... where the whole family sticked together to help out from the youngest to the oldest .... but f%$k, then we would have the greedy landlords on our backs, taking hte best of the best and charging us top $$ for our rent.

Ok ... then all let's go back to the days when we could reap the bounty from the sea, and all become fishermen .. but then .................

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

Only two right-to-work states are in the top 10 states with the lowest poverty rates: Virginia and Wyoming.... But keep askin', Old Guy... Each qustion yolu asks make the right-to-work states look worse off...

And, yeah, Kendall is 100% on the money when he observes there are plenty of folks out there who have benefited from the labor unions who are too selfish tio throw a few peas in the pot... That, my friends, is what I call a welfare mentality... Yeah, let otrher folks fight for my standard of livin'... I'm too buay to be bothered...

BTW, what kind of work did you do, Old Guy???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM

Will some one clear up this "Right to Work" term. Does this refere to the Bacon-Davis Act because if it does then there's a bit being left out?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM

The neo cons won't rest until we are all back begging for a living wage and being thrown on the dump when we are used up or injured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM

I remember my dad working very hard to improve the air quality at the pulp and paper mill. He had to do this through the Union because the owners of the mill didn't give a damn. Thanks to him and many other unionized workers, there are now vastly improved working conditions.

He died of emphysema.

You'll never convince me that unions are unecessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

No, Barry... Davis-Bacon is about having companies that hire minorities...

"Right-to-work" come from a not-so-little provision in the Taft-Hartley Act known as 14(b) which allows states to to make closed shops (100% unionized) illegeal... In essence, it's anti-labor since anyone can go to work for a company and not have to participate with the union or pay dues...


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

Big Mick: My true color? I just confirmed by looking in the mirror that I am white.

I delt with union leaders most of my professional life. I can't say that all of the decisions they made (in the cases of which I am aware) were made in the best interest of the membership.

If union leaders are so democratic, why don't they let the membership decide wwhich political party will receive that union's financial backing and support? Not all union members are registered Democrats.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

what kind of work did you do, Old Guy???

Sheet metal. We had air conditioning in our shop back in the 60's. When it got too hot to work, some buys from a union shop we knew would knock off and come over to our shop to cool off. There is where the former union business agent worked on the layout bench. He got kicked out for taking bribes or embezzeling money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

The primary provision of Davis Bacon is the prevailing wage provision. It is used in the construction trades in order to prevent contractors from importing workers from low wage areas and bringing them to an area of the country to undercut wages and benefits. In essence it provides a guideline, based on local area scale, that must be paid. It is based on all wages in the given trade in the local area.

Again DougR and Old Guy fall to demagogery. They tell isolated stories that may or may not be true, in an effort to disprove through innuendo that which cannot be backed up by empirical fact. That is why I tell them their true colors shine through. They both know it to be true which is why they keep using it. Example: Old Guy continues to refer to Hoffa in a discussion of right to work laws. He knows his arguments don't hold water, so he attempts to shift the premise. Weak intellect equals weak argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

What you intelectuals fail to realize it that unions once served a purpose. Now laws take over those purposes and unions are outdated. They do more harm than good.

Unions do things, or did things like requiring a person be paid an exorbitant wage to shovel coal on a diesel powered train. Then they bitch about inefficiency in the government.

Of course an intellectual could see the logic in that, like the emperors new cloths.

Beginning in the late 1930's, but really gaining momentum in the late 1940's, railroads began to replace steam locomotives with diesel engines. Diesel locomotives were more reliable, easier to maintain, easier to operate (no coal to shovel) and could go much longer distances without service (steam engines stopped frequently for more water). As this transition occurred, railroad companies very reasonably sought to eliminate the position of "fireman" on diesel trains. After all, without a boiler and coal to shovel, the fireman role was totally redundant on a diesel engine. Railroad unions were nothing if not gutsy, and in response they argued that not only would they not accept elimination of the fireman position, but they campaigned for an addition of a second fireman on diesel engines. Railroads found themselves in the position of actually having to fight a nearly successful effort to increase the number of firemen on crews. As a result, they ended up accepting the fireman role, and generations of railroad men cruised about the country on engines for the next 40 years, doing virtually nothing for their pay. Railroads were still fighting to eliminate the fireman in the 1990's. In some cases, railroads were actually forced to pay "lonesome pay" to some engineers when the firemen were removed from their crew.

More here

How many people are sitting on their asses in Detriot, reading magazines while getting paid a full wage? The Unions are running the US auto makers out of business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:35 AM

Well, OPld Guy, the only reason that you now have the time to sit in fronmt of your computer rather than still be in some sweat shop is because of the labor movement... Yeah, all tradesmen have the labor movement to thank...

Now Boss Hog has propagated this mis-guided opinion that labor unions are evil and no longer needed... Wrong... They are needed more today than any time in the last 25 years as workers real wage have been in a slide for the last 25 years...

Even the minimum wage has lost 42% of it's buying power over that period... Ans just as we saw during the labor movement of the last century, Boss Hog is living like a king...

As for labor unions running the American auto manufacurer out of business, you couldn't be more wrong... What is driving the American auto companies to ruins is bad product *plus* it's bad management of it's own resources in not setting aside the money it promised it's workers in benefits and retirement packages... That's the long and skinny...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:38 AM

"money it promised" When pressed by labor unions.

Henry Ford raised all of his workers to an unheard of level with out any assistance from a union but they had to work for it. No dead asses could slack off and have the union defend him.

And how may people are sitting on their asses in Detroit reading magazines and getting paid full scale because of a slowdown in auto sales?

All of my cars and trucks are American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

So what do you drive Old Guy? Honda? Nissan? Toyota? Volkswagen?

We own one of those nasty Japanese cars. The company is part of Chrysler now which is of course Daimler....but our car was built completely in Australia and never saw any of Japan, Germany, or Detroit for that matter. While Unions are a part of the automotive story, they are far from the whole story and NOT the downfall of Detroit as you suggest. And that crappola about the railroads is totally laughable. I'd argue the point but any discussion with you goes nowhere fast. Suffice it to say that the big railroads "engineered" their own demise by fighting with the BLF&E and not the US government who was the real enemy.

On a happy thought, your posts have become a consistent source of amusement! When you decided to simplify your life I think you should have put more thought into not becoming simple-minded as well. Keep those chuckles coming....along with a few guffaws and belly laughs as well!   

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

Unions are running the US auto makers out of business.

No, turning out expensive, gas-guzzling shit is what's driving the U.S. automakers out of business.

In addition, half the parts of "U.S. made" autos are no longer made in the U.S.

What's driving jobs offshore is unbridled corporate greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:15 AM

It's true that Henry Ford raised his employees pay, but was it for their benefit? Hell no! He figured that if his workers had the money they would buy his cars. Totally self centered. He also demanded that they not smoke,not drink, and go to church on Sunday. And you complain about a guy reading?
When the auto workers went on strike for a living wage, they were set upon by thugs hired by Boss Hogg, and were killed! And that happened in other industries as well. Even the governor of a certain south western state sent in the Militia to break the strike. They mowed the men women and children down with machine guns!
Of course there is corruption in the labor movement. There is feather bedding and all, but at least the union bosses don't shoot people down!


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM

I own a Subaru Outback ... great quality Japanese car with a sticker on the back window proudly stating ... "Union Made in Illinois".

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

CORRECTION .... the sticker says "Union Made in Indiana"

regardless ... it's a Japanese vehicle made in the u.s.a. ... whose quality is reflected by the union workers who made it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:46 AM

Sorry Six...Forgot Subaru (and a few others as well like Mazda)! How could I omit Subaru? "The Official Car of the US Ski Team"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM

Old Guy continues to mouth the classic lines used to bust unions. It's understandable. He is obviously a mouthpiece for management, if not management himself. I expect he will deny it but he uses the same tired old responses that I hear in every organizing campaign. Why does management use this stuff? What do they care if their employees have a contract? Simple, more money for them. I could almost understand this, if times were hard for them. But they aren't. They make record profits, and want more and they want to achieve it by taking it out of the workers pockets.

Here is an example of Old Dog's (whom I suspect is a union buster disguising himself as a nice old fella) statements:What you intelectuals fail to realize it that unions once served a purpose. Now laws take over those purposes and unions are outdated. They do more harm than good. Really? The past 20 years or so have seen a steady weakening of the laws that protect workers and their families. We have seen the passage of the horrific NAFTA and CAFTA laws which give preference to countries with horrible labor standards to the detriment of US families. Our workers are still the most productive in the world, but they can't compete against low wage, no labor standards, no benefits, no overtime conditions.

Unions are outdated? Anyone been watching the attempts by the US Chamber of Commerce, and the Manufacturing associations to drop employer paid health care? And they want to do it with no replacement system in place. Won't hurt them, but will kill average families. Who is fighting against this but unions?

Unions are outdated and unneeded? Seen what's been happening to pensions and retirement plans? Does Ken Lay ring a bell? How many more folks have to work their whole lives, think they have retirement income, and end up broke. Not because they made bad choices, but because they were lied to. Their employers manipulate the value of the company, inflate the value of the stock, folks put it in their 401K, then find out it was all a scam to fool stockholders, but after the top folks ran off with the money. Who will fight for this but Unions. The law didn't even protect these people. And only the unions are fighting to strengthen these laws.

We see a steady weakening of the laws that make a workplace safe, and a corresponding increase in workplace injury and death. Our environmental laws are steadily being decimated and there is a corresponding rise in the pollution that will kill us all.

But perhaps the most ominous sign is the steady migration of money from the poorest to the richest. The steady centralizing of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. The middle class slipping steadily down the slope of working more hours, several jobs, and all for less money. And at the vanguard of those fighting to reverse this are the unions. We are bloodied, the law no longer provides a level playing field. We are under constant attack. The time may come where we must take it to the streets again. But despite the half truths, misconceptions, and outright lies of folks like Old Guy we will continue the struggle. We aren't perfect, but we are committed. You are a dupe, Old Guy, either unwittingly or by intent, for the monied interests in this world who believe in themselves as the over class, and the rest of us as a mere commodity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

And from the Census report: Table A-2 on Page 38 shows that men's earnings are lower now, adjusted for inflation, than they they were in 1973...

But, I think I know why Old Guy has taken to spout off Boss Hog's fight song and Big Mick hit upon it also... Yeah, I don't think Old Guy was on the labor end of the sheet meatl industry... He speaks very much like management... BTW, the Census Report has some very good news for management... the top 1/5th of income earners earn 50.4 percent of all the money and thgis is the highest percentage since 1967... And even better news for management... The biggest gains have been enjoyed by the upper 5%...

Like I said... We need more unions, not less... The laws that are supposed to be helping the working class are really helping Boss Hog...

BTW, why is it okey for a major corporation to reorganize under the bnakruptcy laws and break promises made to their empoyeees but not okay for some poor 19 year old college kid who has been enticed by a credit card company no given the same protection under the bankruptcy laws in regards to the presditory lenders who all but held the poor kid to the ground to get him to take ther card in the first place???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM

Beware a long post but an intersting & true enough story

As one who has worked in & out of constructions unions from the east coast to the west coast (US) to the Pacific Islands I think I've
earned a right o speak my mind on ths topic.

First to Mick, cause he knows personally how I feel about Unions, Mick well said & good for you for the above posts.

I 1st joined the Boston Roofers, Waterproofers & Allied Workers Local 33 in 1971. It soon became a very corrupted union (not cause I joined). The new officers soon were soon taking home the till, though it took a while for it to be noticed. Let me say now that my uncles had been charter members & I & my cousin were all union men & members. My cousin eventually caught on to what was going on & started a personnal campain against it. I was too busy to notice or bother, I was quite a wild young'n & was busy sowing wild oats when not working. Well my cousin took a terrible beating for his troubles & I was sought out as a way to convince my cousin to shut his mouth. I was also took a beating from the then president who had in the past served time for murder, not a pleasant bunch. I in turn took the President, Business Agent & the union into federal court. In the meantime I had to hide out in Austin, Texas because they (union officials) were debating to to put a mob contract out to hit me & my cousin. Eventually both the Business Agent & the President were sent to federal prisons for a few years (& I wasn't dead). By that time both my cousin & I went to work in non-union shops. The e-board found both my cousin & I to still be members in good standing & welcomed us back in. My cousin went to work for the MBTA & stayed there & is still there. I on the other hand continued in my trade but never went back to the union, there were to many people that owed favors to these two plus they had far more relations working there than I did & working on the edge of a 30 story building with some one I didn't know was to much of a risk. Anyway, as a union roofer learning other trades was out of the question (a fault that they corrected many yrs latter). As a non union worker I also became a fair hand at being (as long as it was assocated with the roof) a carpenter (parapit walls, decks & etc) a sheet metal fabricator (metal edges, flashings, etc), plumber (drains, scuppers, gutters, drain lines & leaders, etc), Masonary (chimneys, parapit & penthouse walls, etc), Iron work (repairing & installing metal decks & welding), Caulker, Painter & Rigger (for stagging). After leaving the field I went into business for myself & wore all the hats
involved, sold the buiness & went to work for the folks that bought it. From there I became management. I was the saftey officer, lead estimator, Job Super, negotiator with owners of the projects both private, government & public up to 5 million. Dealt with the unions,
(we became a union shop after my 1st few years), the architects & engineers, construction managers & supers. so I think my opinions here are valueable.

First, the unions were responsible for the common wage earning labor's life to reach a middle class were there once wasn't a middle class. The union brought up those wages of the non union worker alike. It brought in the 40 hour work week, which today's work force is losing ground with it also brought the 8 hr day & the 5 day work week, again ground is being lost here too as well as the overtime pay that it fought so hard to get. It brought in health benifits & retirement & pension plans, which again we see here ground being lost. It brought about sick time, vacation time, holidays & family days, time off for pregant women with out the fear of the loss of jobs. Well, it is dying, they did do all this but they're getting old now some say. They're not getting old they're are just being beaten down, since Regean took office thy've been run into the ground. Sure there were some nasty unions & probably still are but it's up to their members & supporters to fight like I had to. It's up to the public to see that they stay healthy. To honor picket lines, boycotts & refuse to shop at the Wal-Marts of the world. When you know that companies like Nestles treat their over seas workers like cattle & that they're pushing their substandard baby formular on 3rd world mothers & killing both Mothers & children you shold as a collective public take action & do something. This is the behavior that brought the South African government to it's knees & this is what would bring our work home from their outsourced overseas homes. This is what would bring our worker's living wage back to where it should be & their health, retirements & pension plans back to the levels where they should be. If many of these national, international, multinational & mega companies were unionized their folks would've been far better off & recieved more than a false gold plated golden handshake when it was their time to sail off into the sunset. Unions are becoming redundent only because the public is letting it happen & they're letting it happen because both the big business & the government are in bed together reaping in their criminal rewards while driving the middle class down into the poor & driving the poor into the graves.

Lastly, the unions aren't responsible for the demise of the auto industry & the airlines, etc, big business & the government is. The 1 nite stands the public could stand but all these marriages, please. On there own & left to themselves in their own capital worlds they'd mamage fine or make way for others but they make lously bedfellows both too greedy & self serving, too manipulating & way too interested in themslves. So in the end they've devorced the public & the public is the one that's getting laid to waste.

There, sorry it's been such a long post but I've put my own life on the line as a worker & a fighter & I just hate to see us go back to the days when business ruled with an Iron Fist as it appears to ready to do again.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:37 PM

Well penned Barry as always.....and I want to say "well lived" too, but that's not the right wording.......

You have always seemed to be a man who truly has gained learning from life, often the hard way, but learning nonetheless. You use that experience well and have worked your personal beliefs from it all. I think you will readily challenge your own beliefs as hard and well as those of others. You, Mick, and many others here, are all too rare in this world of rigid idiots and milk toast fools.

It is the thing that makes this place special......You just don't meet Barry Finns in most places.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM

Good one Barry .... says it all. Thanks.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM

Laws take over the purpose of unions?

B.C. has a new child labour law that has lower standards than India.

"Besides legalizing child labour, Bill 37 also lowered the province's minimum wage to $6 an hour ($5.35 US) - the lowest in Canada - by establishing a two-tiered "minimum" rate.

The $6 "first job/entry level" wage applies to new employees in the work force. They are exempted from qualifying for the second-tier $8 minimum wage until they have worked at least 500 hours with more than one employer."

Read more:
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2006/n13au06a.htm

or

http://www.lcc.gc.ca/research_project/pr/gen/resources/irwin_2005-en.asp

That Guy doesn't have a clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:48 AM

I'm talking about a real country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:58 AM

Please list the 'real' countries you're talking about or better yet, name some of the laws that have taken the place of negotiated working conditions and wages that you claim are in place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:22 AM

Old Guy .. "I'm talking about a real country" ... do you mean my passport is a fraud ??

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:58 AM

A REAL COUNTRY? Folks, this is an excellent example of American arrogance, and one of the reasons we are iniversally hated.
Old Guy, you go too far.You just lost all credibility with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:21 AM

Yeah, Old Guy has really shown his true colors here...

Thanks, Barry... My exact sentiments... What we need are more unions 'cause everyone but Boss Hog is going backwards...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM

Old Guy, you go too far.You just lost all credibility with me.

Only now? It took this long? ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 10:50 AM

Thanks, Old Guy. You always make my point so much better than I ever could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM

Greg F, I don't like to jump too soon. Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves.

Nice knot you have there, Old Guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,Marty
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:52 AM

Economics 101 states that a company's number 1 objective is to "maximize shareholders' interests." Labor is just one ingredient in the mix of putting out a product or service and it's not their duty or problem if you aren't happy. You agreed to be paid an amount when you signed-on and they argreed to pay that. Nothing else. If you're not happy with your pay (or hours or benefits), you're free to find employment elsewhere. We moved from an agricultural economy into an industrial economy 130 or so years ago. Now we're moving to a service oriented economy. Those who don't reeducate themselves will be left behind. The global market is here to stay. Stop crying about and wishing for "the good 'ole days" because America isn't going back to making cars and TV's and steel and (insert almost anything.) You're only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. If I can make more profit manufacturing my product overseas, than you've priced yourselves out of the market. Learn something that will profit my company and I'll pay you handsomely. Almost all of those posters here have a sense of entitlement that makes me sick! You think, "well, I work hard all day; I should make decent money." Well what if I drove a team of mules all day to plow a field and my neighbor used a tractor? I've worked my ass off all day: much more work than my neighbor even, but I'm not going to get one tenth the amount of work done. Should I make as much money as my neighbor? Then answer is NO. My neighbor working smarter, not harder and is rewarded for adapting to his changing environment. There are grants and gov't loans for getting educated. It may take time and be difficult; that's why so many won't even entertain the idea of going to school - they're lazy. But the ones who do will reap the rewards while the rest of you here will still be bitching and moaning and looking for handouts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:43 AM

Since Bush took over, and I do mean "took", there have been thousands of jobs created. Minimum wage service positions.
We can only use so many hamburger flippers.
I don't see any way this country can survive without a manufacturing base.

"You want fries with that"?

"Welcome to Wal Mart".


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 10:55 AM

See Marty, Old Guy, et al, you use the same old "shift the premise, confuse the argument, win through obfuscation..." arguments. Marty quotes "Economics 101" about the company's duty. No shit, Sherlock. Now employ a little "Reading 101" would ya, smart ass? Go back and read slowly and for comprehension the title of this thread. This isn't about the company and its obligations. It is about Right to work Laws and their legitimacy. We know what the company's obligation is. Labor law is about protecting the free flow of commerce across interstate lines by providing democracy to the workers, and by providing a system of addressing the grievances of the working class. The by product is fewer work stoppages, a more dedicated workforce. Another is a more equitable distribution of the wealth of this country, hence a more prosperous economy for more people.

In other words, Econ 101 Boy, the labor laws were constructed to level the playing field so that the duty to shareholders doesn't get out of whack and result in the abuses of the Industrial Revolution.

Glad you paid attention in Econ 101, you should have paid a little more attention to US History and Social Studies.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:08 PM

I heard LBJ talking to Walter Reuther in a phone conversation in the LBJ tapes being played on CSpan.

I can't find a transcript on the net and I can't get Real Player to play the audio but I remember one part very vividly. It was LBJ saying "Now if you liberals would stop crying about 14b...."

Maybe you can get it to work. The URL:

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=reuther

LBJ White House Tapes

This week on C-SPAN Radio's LBJ Tapes, a special program of Pres. Lyndon Johnson?s 1966 calls with Labor Secretary Willard Wirtz, AFL-CIO President George Meany, and Walter Reuther, President of the United Auto Workers. Topics include minimum wage and right to work legislation, unemployment, vocational training, and political issues. You?ll also hear LBJ complain about labor officials criticizing the war in Vietnam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM

So what??? Walter Reuther ain't got much to do with the out-of-wackness that we see today with the corporations owning the government...

And Economics 101, at least when I took it was about free market supply and demand... When y6ou have a corrupt governemnt intent on redristributing income to the very small minority of folks who put the corrupt governemnt in place you can take Econ 101, tie a friggin' brick around it and throw it off the Talahatchee Bridge...

Econ 101, my butt, Marty... Try Corrupt Gov 101... That's more like it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM

Bobert: Do you have a company?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:36 AM

Arthur A. Coia, the former president of a labor union who has raised millions of dollars for Bill Clinton, Al Gore and the Democratic Party, pleads guilty to defrauding taxpayers in Rhode Island of nearly $100,000 in taxes that were due on three Ferrari sports cars worth more than $1.7 million. Coia gets two years probation and a $10,000 fine.

http://prorev.com/connex2.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:57 AM

Who get them off, Bill & Al aren't in office, they aren't holding the cards?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 06:58 AM

Old Guy, if I were you, I'd be very careful about bringing up political corruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:23 AM

Naw, Kendall, its the standard braun-dead Bushite response to being confronted with unpleasant facts:

Bring Up Bill Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM

The irony of it is, Clinton was more republican than democrat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

The way you guys try to negate facts with sarcastic bullshit Liberal cliches is amusing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:14 PM

5 May 1995         During commencement at Michigan State University, President Clinton declares: "There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending that you can love your country but despise your government."


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: curmudgeon
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM

Here's   the speech that "Old Guy" lifted a non-sequitor from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:32 PM

What a pleasure it was to hear an intelligent man speak. One who can pronounce "Nuclear" and "particularly".


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:35 PM

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public
servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is
warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency
in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a
whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full
liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly
necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does
right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile.
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are
to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the
truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more
important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about
any one else."

"Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

I see he finally admitted that there ARE secret prisons around the world where we send suspects for "alternative interview methods"


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 08:02 PM

Old Guy,

Of course I have a company... Well, technically an LLC... What's it to ya'??? Seems every small businessmann has either a company or corporation... Who cares??? It's Business 101... Like what is your point, Old Guy???

Plus, statements like your 12:56 PM post only make you the bullsh*ter... Not all these so called "liberals" that you keep talkin' about... I'm not too sure who exactly you mean when you use this term but surely you haven't put any real thought into it... Yeah, this is just more Bush I politics... Oh, these liberals... Oh, these intellectuals... Horrors...

But keep it up, Old Guy, 'cause guess what??? The swing voters who have bought into that crap in the past ain't buyin' it no more... The Americanpeople have figured your side out and the more you make this assinine general statements to dumber you sound... That's exactly why Bush ain't got the approval nu7mbers anymore... Folks are tired of dumbass politics and policies and want more for their tax dollars...

And that's what I just heard from a heating and air conditioning contrator about 2 hours ago who still has a slightly worn out Bush/Cheney bumper sticker on the back of his SUV... Folks are seeing theu the lies and corruption and there aren't enought dumbass redneck Texas sayin's to bring these folks back... And I'm talkin' conservative Republican Virginians who have had more than enough of thecrap that apparently still entertains you, Oldster...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 10:07 PM

Bobert, howcome you keep knocking companies when you have your own? Is it one that maximizes profits and minimizes costs or is it one of those philanthropic ones?

October 10 2000         China-PNTR Enacted
This Act was a crucial step to complete a major trade goal of the Clinton-Gore Administration, opening China's markets to American manufactured goods, farm products and services by allowing China to become part of the WTO, forcing it to slash import barriers against American goods and services. The United States agreed to maintain market access policies we currently apply to China.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/china/trade.html

In the late 1990s, Washington was a sharply divided political city, but there was a growing consensus on one big issue. Most Republicans and Democrats agreed that trade with China would be a boon for America.

President Clinton summed up the mainstream consensus in Washington with a message to Congress in the spring of 2000. In a letter circulated to House members, he wrote, "China with more than a billion people is home to the largest potential market in the world… If Congress makes the right decision, our companies will be able to sell and distribute products in China made by American workers on American soil, without being forced to relocate manufacturing to China. …We will be able to export products without exporting jobs."

Clinton was pushing Congress to permanently normalize trade relations with Beijing, helping to ease China's entry into the World Trade Organization (WTO). Big business was furiously lobbying Capitol Hill in favor of the legislation. It saw China, with its 1.2 billion consumers, as a vast new emerging market and many parts of Corporate America wanted a piece of the action.

Just weeks before the legislation received the president's signature, Robert Burt, chairman of the Business Roundtable, an association of CEOs of leading American corporations, spoke boldly about the future. "This historic legislation will be remembered as the key that opened the door for America to sell its products and services to the world's largest emerging marketplace," he declared.

Other executives around the U.S. were equally strong in supporting U.S. trade with Beijing, and China's efforts to get into the WTO because they reasoned that China would then be required to play by the same trading rules as the WTO's other members. Moreover, as Europeans rushed to do business in China, American corporate captains did not want to be left behind. They worried that unless the U.S. backed the move, they would lose out to the Europeans, a worry Chinese officials played upon effectively from time to time during the 1990s.

On Capitol Hill, legislation to normalize trade with China got overwhelming bipartisan support in the Senate, where it passed, 83 votes to 15. Even in the House, where Democrats were split on the issue, the president received support from three-quarters of the Republicans, and the legislation passed by a wide margin, 237 to 197.

President Clinton signed the legislation at the White House in early October, and China joined the WTO 14 months later, on Dec. 11, 2001.

So How Did the U.S. Trade Opening with China Work Out?

For many, America's trade with China has not lived up to the enthusiastic advance billing from the Clinton administration, its Republican supporters on Capitol Hill and Corporate America.

Expanded trade with China has, in fact, been a blessing for large U.S. multinationals like Boeing, Caterpillar, and Cargill, which had trumpeted the prospect of a massive Chinese market for American products and services. China is the world's fastest growing market for commercial aviation, and needs billions of dollars worth of airplanes from Boeing. Its growing infrastructure has been a boon for companies like Caterpillar, which produces tractors and other heavy equipment. And it is importing billions of dollars worth of farm products, a boon to companies like Cargill. Last year, China bought $2.9 billion worth of soybeans -- the top U.S. export crop to China. China also has proven to be a growing market for U.S.-made fertilizer and chemicals.

But China has been a tougher market to crack for smaller and mid-sized American companies, like those selling bicycles, vacuum cleaners, and lawn mowers, who face stiff price competition from Chinese manufacturers of these products. And they also face discriminatory rules, burdensome red tape, language difficulties, and a population that earns only a fraction of what U.S. consumers make, and therefore lacks the purchasing power to buy consumer goods made in America.

Yvonne Smith, the communications director at the Port of Long Beach, literally sees the imbalance in U.S.-China trade. She reports that through Long Beach alone, the U.S. is importing $36 billion in goods yearly from China and exporting just $3 billion. By her account, the mix of products is very unfavorable to the U.S.

"We export cotton, we import clothing," Smith reports. "We export hides, we bring in shoes. We export scrap metal. We bring back machinery. We're exporting waste paper, we bring back cardboard boxes with products inside them."

Overall, the U.S. trade deficit with China reached a record $124 billion dollars in 2003 and the figure is headed even higher this year. Today, U.S. imports from China outpace U.S. exports to China by more than five to one, and the deficit shows no signs of abating.

These deficits are much larger than the trade deficits that the United States experienced in the 1980s and 1990s with Asian trading partners such as Japan. Put in historical perspective, America's current trade deficit with China is roughly double what it was at its height with Japan in the mid-1980s, when trade frictions between the U.S. and Japan led Sen. Lloyd Bentsen (D-Texas) to famously declare on the floor of the U.S. Senate: "We're in a trade war, and we're losing it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 11:40 PM

...From Wall Street's point of view, Clinton's eight years in office have to be viewed as a smashing success. When he took office, the New York Stock Exchange's Dow Jones Industrial Average stood at 3,300. At the time of writing, it stands at more than 10,000. Inflation dropped to imperceptible levels and, in May 2000, unemployment hit a 30-year low of 3.9 percent. Between 1992 and 1997, corporate profits grew by an average of 15 percent annually. The U.S. had clearly zoomed ahead as the world's leading economy.

Yet all that glittered in the "miracle economy" wasn't gold. Of the 22.5 million jobs created since the American boom began, about half of them pay less than $7 an hour. And the number of part-time workers desiring full-time work, combined with the number of low-wage ($7/hour or less) workers, is three times the number of workers without jobs. Low unemployment has boosted wages, but only back to 1989 levels in real terms.

To achieve even that standard of living, Americans work six weeks longer per year than they did in the 1970s. Even with the tax increases in Clinton's 1993 budget plan, the wealthy pay a substantially lower percentage of their income in taxes than they did in 1977. Meanwhile, 38 million Americans remain poor by the government's own statistics, which underestimate the true level of poverty, according to many experts.

This growing gap between rich and poor was no accident. It followed directly from the Clinton-Gore economic program. Whenever Clinton faced a choice between economic policies favoring Wall Street or those that might help Main Street, "in almost every instance, [Clinton] took the route favored by Wall Street, business executives and conventional economists, not the ones that ordinary people might have favored and that almost certainly would have been easier to defend politically."...

More at http://www.isreview.org/issues/13/clinton-gore.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:38 AM

Weeeell Bobert, It depends on wether those swing voters consider someone who just bitches and whines about someone fighting terrorisim and tries to thwart them more appealing than someone who is actually doing something to fight terrorisim.

Liberal: 1. A person with liberal ideas or opinions. 2. Liberal A member of a Liberal political party.

Conservative: 1. One favoring traditional views and values. 2. A supporter of political conservatism.

That's me, One favoring traditional views and values.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 07:44 AM

Show me where I have knocked any companies that weren't either on the take or mired in greed...

Compabnies ain't the problem, Old Guy... Crooks are...

But see, there you go again makin' these generalized statements that are not based on fact... You think if you can pin some kinda anti-business label on me that you somehow can go from there and pin other kinds of labels on me... It's all about framin' and labelin' for you... Purdy sad thjat youi have to resort to tryinmg to pigeon hole everyone when most folks just ain't all that simple to pigeon hole...

As for yer liberal/conservate you again make a patent Old-Guy-generalization... Yer either against terrorism or yer a liberal is what come thru loud and clear... What a crock...

If you and yer hero, George Bush, are so concerned about terrorism then how come you all are gettin' such bad grades from the bi-partisan 9/11 Commission??? Hmmmmmmm????

There's more to fighting terrorism than Bush's my-way-or-the-highway attitude... He's chosen to go it alone because Karl Rove saw that he could consolidate power that way and for no other reason... Jus' onbe big ol' power grab... And look were it's gotten us???

$312,561,410,024.00 of increased debt and pushing 3000 American lives in Iraq alone...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 08:24 AM

Old Guy, where did you get that definition of liberal/conservative, off a tea bag tab?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 01:39 AM

American Heritage Dictionary.

Bobert is paranoid when he accuses Bush of a power grab.

If you have a company that is making money is it on the take?

You bitch about companies, businesses taking money from the middle class. But you are the middle class and you are not losing net worth.

Do you really know anything that dosen't conflict with something elses you claim? I bought a foreign car. I support unions.

Now are you going to claim that you have not benefited from the economy when you brag about how life is good and you bought and sold so many properties?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 07:21 AM

And that middle class was created by labor unions too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 03:38 PM

Kendall: You have a valid point there but why should unions who have outgrown their purpose and usefullnes continue to try to pump up wages and stifle the economy?

You can deny that rising wages are not what forces jobs overseas but it is what forces jobs offshore.

NAFTA and PNTR were Clinton's accomplishments.

And you claim people should not have the right to choose not to pay union dues? They should be forced to pay union dues but Walmart (according to you) unfairly and illegally forces people to use medicaid for health insurance? It is clear you think are the only judge in the world qualified to decide what is fair.

I think people can decide what is fair and should be allowed to decide what is fair without union brainwashing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 07:11 PM

Fat Old Woody must work for THIS OUTFIT which proudly states that its "Protecting American Workers and Employers from the Tyranny of Unions"

Oh, we're the John Birch Sociery

The John Birch Sociery

Here to save the country from a Communistic Plot!
Oh, we're the John Birch Sociery

Help us fill the ranks

To get this movement started

We need lots of tools and cranks.........


Jeez, I thought the NeoCons maintain that Unions are weak, ineffectual effeminite girlie-men organizations whose time is past.
How, then, have they the power to "Tyrrannize" anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 08:04 PM

Hey, Old Guy, have I ever said that there was anything wrong with a company making a profit???

Yes   ______

No    ______

See, you love to sling accusations but you can't back them up... Hey, you have some legitimate folks here with legitimate positions and questions so why no spend some more time rebuttin' and less time trying to tell other folks what you wished they had said??? Heck, if that's all you want to do you don't need Mudcat... All you need is Microsoft word processer and you can carry on this nice little debate between you and imagined people... And it will also save you from havin' to be called on the carpet for making false statements about other folks positions...

And for the record, one can be both pro-business and pro-labor... Yeah, I'm sure this may go against everything that that you think but think about it this way: a happy worker who doesn't have to take another job to make ends meet is a productive worker... If you were to look back at the productivity since the labor movement you'd find that productivity increased measurably with the increased influence of unions...

One might even argue that had the United States not benefited from the labor movement in the 20's and 30's that come WWII the country might not have had the porductivity to win the war...Now I'm not making a blanket statement to that effect but it is certainly somenthing for some college kid to research and write a danged fine PHD thesis about...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 09:32 PM

Americans are working longer hours , working two jobs,and their buying power is shrinking year by year. We have reached the point where we have to run like hell just to keep up! It's not hard to picture what will happen when the last union goes under.

Getr ready to learn how to say "Yowsah Boss."


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 08:08 AM

I'm more optomistic than that, Kendall...

I see a few lights comin' on in a few of the angry white NASCAR dads who are slowly figuring out that it ain't the "liberals' who have their hands in their pockets but Boss Hog's hands...

One thing about Southerners is that they are real slow to figurate stuff out but once they do it's almost impossibile to turn 'um back around... Right now, Boss Hog is too stupid to see that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 12:31 AM

Is that Boss Hogg a company?

What does Boss Hogg do with whatever he is stealing, if that is what you are claiming?

It's hard to tell what you are claiming because it is laced with sarcasam and filled with rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 09:25 AM

Halliburton getting caught trying to steal from me as a taxpayer ain't rhetoric, Old Guy... And did anyone in Halliburton go to jail??? Well, of course not... That ain't rhetoric... No bid contracts that go to large, well connected, campaign contributin' corporations is was Boss Hog is all about... If you want a list of the Boss Hog's in America just Google up "no bid contracts" and you'll have have alot of 'um... And behind nearly every one of them you'll find, if you look hare enough, kickbacks to the Bush regime...

And, BTW, these days you have to look beyond the pioneer/ranger protection money charade and look deep inside the Republican 501(c) money machine... But good luck 'cause unlike the 527's this money is almost untraceable... But that's the way the Bush folks like their politics... Untraceable...

And these realities can't be so easily dismissed as rhetoric because they are very mush real... This is a very corrupt governemnt... Legislators don't write legislation anymore... Lobbiests do... Hmmmmm? And who do these lobbiests work for??? Boss Hog, that's who...

And seeing this doesn't make me anti-business, just anti-corruption...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:41 PM

So who is Boss Hog? Have you got another name for him or it?

How did Clinton do with those no bid contracts he gave to Halliburton? Did he get any kickbacks?

Did Boss Hog rent the Lincoln Bedroom? Is he or it a Red Chinese?

Bobert has been brainwashed again:

Writing in the Washington Post, columnist Michael Kinsley called the Halliburton contract "nation-building, Republican-style, with huge contracts awarded in secret to politically connected companies." The New York Times editorialized that the contract "looks like naked favoritism" and "undermines the Bush administration's portrayal of the war as a campaign for disarmament and democracy, not lucre."

One element missing from all the criticism was a serious examination of what the Halliburton contract actually involved and how it came to be signed. For example, was it really reached without competition, as Waxman charged? As it turns out, the evidence that is publicly available (some of it remains classified) suggests that Waxman's accusations are misleading at best and flat wrong at worst. It appears not only that there was not "naked favoritism" at work in the Halliburton contract, but that the Corps of Engineers, and the Bush administration, acted reasonably and properly in awarding the contract — no matter what Waxman says...
...The first LOGCAP was awarded in 1992, as the first Bush administration (including then-Secretary of Defense Cheney) was leaving office. Four companies competed, and the winner was Brown & Root, as it was known at the time (Halliburton changed the name to Kellogg Brown & Root after an acquisition in 1998). The multi-year contract was in effect during much of the Clinton administration. During those years, Brown & Root did extensive work for the Army under the LOGCAP contract in Haiti, Somalia, and Bosnia; contract workers built base camps and provided troops with electrical power, food, and other necessities.

In 1997, when LOGCAP was again put up for bid, Halliburton/Brown & Root lost the competition to another contractor, Dyncorp. But the Clinton Defense Department, rather than switch from Halliburton to Dyncorp, elected to award a separate, sole-source contract to Halliburton/Brown & Root to continue its work in the Balkans. According to a later GAO study, the Army made the choice because 1) Brown & Root had already acquired extensive knowledge of how to work in the area; 2) the company "had demonstrated the ability to support the operation"; and 3) changing contractors would have been costly. The Army's sole-source Bosnia contract with Brown & Root lasted until 1999. At that time, the Clinton Defense Department conducted full-scale competitive bidding for a new contract. The winner was . . . Halliburton/Brown & Root. The company continued its work in Bosnia uninterrupted.

That work received favorable notices throughout the Clinton administration. For example, Vice President Al Gore's National Performance Review mentioned Halliburton's performance in its Report on Reinventing the Department of Defense, issued in September 1996. In a section titled "Outsourcing of Logistics Allows Combat Troops to Stick to Basics," Gore's reinventing-government team favorably mentioned LOGCAP, the cost-plus-award system, and Brown & Root, which the report said provided "basic life support services — food, water, sanitation, shelter, and laundry; and the full realm of logistics services — transportation, electrical, hazardous materials collection and disposal, fuel delivery, airfield and seaport operations, and road maintenance."
.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york070903.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:53 PM

Halliburton has been around for quite a while, it's not Clinton who was working for them it was Chaney who was on their payroll while they were getting no bid contracts.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:32 AM

In 1997, when LOGCAP was again put up for bid, Halliburton/Brown & Root lost the competition to another contractor, Dyncorp. But the Clinton Defense Department, rather than switch from Halliburton to Dyncorp, elected to award a separate, sole-source contract to Halliburton/Brown & Root to continue its work in the Balkans.

Contractor Campaign Contributions


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM

"Simply put, the leftist labor unions have the Democrats in their pockets. And we're all paying the price."

Linda Chavez, President George W. Bush's original choice for Secretary of Labor and a former union official, is one of the foremost authorities on America's labor unions. Now, in the explosive new book Betrayal, she and fellow union expert Daniel Gray expose the corrupt bargain between the labor movement and the Democratic Party.

Committed to a far-left political agenda—and to enhancing their own power—union bosses funnel at least half a billion dollars into Democratic coffers every year. And they do it, illegally, by using dues money that workers are forced to pay as a condition of their employment—dues money that each year brings the unions $17 billion, all of it tax-free.

What do labor bosses get in return? The power to call the shots in Democratic campaigns and on party policy, extraordinary influence at all levels of government, billions of dollars in taxpayer-funded federal grants, and special legal privileges that leave them free to act as they please, no matter the consequences for the American people. The cycle of corruption is seemingly endless.

Chavez and Gray name names, exposing the many politicians who are in Big Labor's pocket—including the leading lights of the Democratic Party. Betrayal also reveals:

• Big Labor's all-out efforts in the 2004 election, including how just one local union has launched a $35-million campaign to unseat President Bush

• How corrupt union officials use members' hard-earned money to fund lavish lifestyles—and how their Democratic supporters let them get away with it

• How unions flout the law by failing to report any of their political spending to the IRS

• How a government report uncovered the Democrats' sellout to Big Labor—but how the unions and the Democrats sued to keep the report from going public

• How the U.S. government lets unions practice legalized terrorism against American citizens

• How public-employee unions extort concessions from the government and put Americans at risk by refusing to provide vital services like policing and firefighting

• How Americans now live under a system of legal apartheid—one set of rules for labor bosses, another for the rest of us

All of us foot the bill for this corrupt system. Now it's up to us to do something about it.

http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Members-Corrupt/dp/product-description/1400052599


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:23 AM

Anyone who has been following the news these days must be able to see the crap that is going on in Washington under the Bush administration.It's a pretty good bet that the democrats will regain the house, and maybe even the senate.

BON FIRE !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM

What does that have to do with the right to work law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 03:45 PM

Not a damn thing. See what it's like when YOU avoid the issue?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM

He's not avoiding the issue- he's following the BuShite Game Plan.
Yet Again.

Get confronted by inconvenient facts? Bring Up Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

Get confronted by inconvenient facts? Bring Up Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:25 PM

The facts is what is going to sink the republicans in the next election. people are wising up. Finally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:51 AM

Funny thing is, I don't give a shit if Democrats win control. It will be entertaining if nothing else.

I am registered as independant and I am basing my voting on whio is against giving citizenship to illegal aliens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:05 AM

That figures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

It sure does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM

Burried in the current amnesty bill is the provision that the aliens must be paid more per hour than American citizens doing the same job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM

Ah, but then Bush IS an inconvenient fact to the BuShites trying increasingly desperately to defend him & his policies.

And Space Aliens SHOULD be paid more- their commute is a right bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:55 PM

The only time I have not been a card carrying Union Member was when i was in the Forces - Now I am retired but still a member of Equity ,
because the Union is there to help the working man !
And it still gives me Public Liability insurance for the odd gig that I do !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM

Ooops ! got a 100th and didnt claim it !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM

Query:

I'm an "old guy" too.

Golly, Old Guy, how come you hang out here, in a music forum? I just looked over your 645 or so postings on Mudcat. Not one had anything to do with music. Just out of curiosity, what are you doing here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:53 PM

Big Mick says....."But the right to work laws say I must still represent them, even though they haven't paid cent one in dues. That means the folks that are members have to subsidize those who choose not to contribute their fair share."


It's a bitch isn't it, Mick?

Being told to help those who don't lift a finger to help themselves.

It sucks having to carry those who practice no personal responsibility.

Whoda thunk it?


What is this country coming to?


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:31 PM

Toadfrog. This is the non music section.

Besides there is a bigger concentration of crybabies here. I like to see them whine, cry and suck snot when tHey are told they are wrong.

GF: I assume you read the topic of this thread. Other people bring up Bush when they can't face the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM

Hey Old Guy, I proved you wrong and all you could come up with was to call me arrogant. And, after the next election we will see who sucks snot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:43 PM

I asked you if you were arrogant. Are you?

I am sorry for all of the crying and whining I have caused you. Please accept my appology.

PS:

I don't give a shit about the next election. Que sera, sera.


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