BS: Right to Workgate

Subject: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

It has come to my attention that some people are attacking the Right to work law and trying to portray it as a bad thing.

What the law does is it gives the worker the right to decide if they want to pay wages to a trade union or not.

It seems like a civil right to me and if a trade union forces one to pay for something they don't want, it is a violation of civil rights.

...Between 1970 and 2000 non-right-to-work states lost 2.3 million manufacturing jobs. Michigan alone shedded 100,000 jobs. But right-to-work states over the same period gained 1.4 million manufacturing jobs.

Part of the reason for this is the fact that right-to-work states have http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=5937lower labor costs — the average right-to-work state has nearly 5 percent lower per-unit labor costs than the average state without a right-to-work law. But this doesn't mean such laws penalize workers in order to benefit employers.

In fact, workers themselves benefit from right-to-work laws. New jobs mean more demand for labor, which nudges wages higher. And when the cost of living in right-to-work states vs. non-right-to-work states is taken into account, workers in right-to-work states are the winners.

In fact, George Mason University economist James Bennett found in 1994 that after adjusting for the cost of living and taxes, workers in right-to-work states took home over $2,800 more each year than workers in non-right-to-work states. In 2001 David Kendrick of the National Institute for Labor Relations Research did similar calculations for nine Midwestern states and found that take-home pay was higher under right-to-work laws....

More here

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:52 PM

Unions have been fighting "Right to Work" laws since ...forever. They will continue to do so because union dues pay the salaries of Union executives. 'sa fact of life.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

Once again you both show your prejudices and your ignorance of these laws.

Unions don't oppose right to work laws, they oppose unfair right to work laws. These laws are not about workers rights, they are about undermining democracy. You see, in this form of government, there are many things one must do that they don't want to. I would prefer not to pay taxes to support a war I don't believe in. I would prefer not to pay taxes to pay the wages of right wing legislators who consistently vote against my best wishes. But in our form of government, I must go along with the majority. That is the way it is. You don't get to pick which laws you follow.

The law of this land, in order to provide for commerce to flow freely, (that's right folks, labor law is based on free flow of commerce)says that if a majority of the workers vote to have a union, then the union is the official collective bargaining representative. The employer must deal with that rep. That is done in a democratic, government supervised, secret ballot vote. All employees must follow the wishes of the majority and join the union, or if they choose not to join, then pay a service fee. Why? Because the union is obligated to represent them, and they get the benefits, such as health insurance, pension, and representation, just like everyone. There are costs associated with this.

So right to work laws, on their face are unfair. Why? Because these laws are always passed with a provision that says the union must still represent these folks even if they are not members. That's right, even if they choose not to belong or pay dues, we must still represent them. There in lies the answer to what these laws are really about. I would prefer not to have these laws, but if they said that one could choose not to be a member and they are on their own, then fine. But in right to work states, let's say someone decides they don't want to join the union. Then the boss fires them, or decides not to give them a pay raise, or screws with their schedule. Do I, as the union rep, have to respresent them and fight for them? You would think not. That would be fair. But the right to work laws say I must still represent them, even though they haven't paid cent one in dues. That means the folks that are members have to subsidize those who choose not to contribute their fair share.

These laws are not about fairness or democracy. They are about breaking unions and denying workers democracy in the workplace. Why does the right fund this big organization know as Right To Work? Because it means more in their pockets and less for the people who make the product.

Once more, Old Guy and DougR show their true colors.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM

Thank you Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

You can't excape death, taxes and union dues. Right?

So how many times have union pensions been robbed?
How many "representatives" have taken bribes and kickbacks?
How many times has the union extorted money from companies for "protection"?
How many unions are controlled by organized crime?

And last but not least, where is Jimmy Hoffa?

This scratches the surface of how unions rip off the workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:47 AM

Old Guy -

Unions provide more than fair take-home pay.

They recognize seniority and fair hiring practices.

They pay pensions and health insurance.

They provide sick leave and maternity leave.

They also provide legal support if you are being harassed.

They provide an opportunity to actually bargain for wages and benefits.

They provide protection for employees who would otherwise be exploited by their employers.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM

And they have driven manufacturing offshore. Murdered people, extorted money, taken kickbacks, bribes and raided pension funds.

"more than fair take-home pay" Yes more than fair, too much, which runs manufacturing to other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

We had this in the UK, under that evil woman Thatcher. We have still not yet properly got rid of it.

The purpose of these laws is to reduce union funding, so that capital may the more readily exploit labour. They are a war on workers and the rights of workers.

What Old Guy and Doug R will achieve by their apparent aims is to reduce the American worker to the slave wages and miserable status of the workers in Africa, India, and the far East, to force each American worker to cut his co-worker's throat to survive.

The "trickle down" economics aka Reaganomics the two little hitlers above espouse are a myth. The rich get richer, and the poor are ground further into the dirt.

By all means rid the world (unions and capital alike) of corruption, if you can. But don't make it an excuse to disenfranchise the worker. Remember the murders by the bosses in the American mining strikes. Go, even, and read the words of "The Miners' Lifeguard".

In England we remember the Tolpuddle Martyrs - executed and transported for starting collective action for the commoner, while the collective action by the bosses went unpunished.

Someone make me a Molotov cocktail please. I am starting to feel the need to take the war to the oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:30 AM

If you want to stop jobs being driven offshore, work to ensure that the workers in India, China, and Malaysia receive a decent working wage. Only by making retailers pay realistic prices for the goods they sell, will you bring work back to your own shores.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:32 AM

Old Guy,

Is your answer to stopping employers offshore to import the conditions facing workers in the Third World?

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, but then again you aren't acting above board. You have an agenda which has you use cute little cliche's to make your point. We often refer to folks like you as "a mile wide and a half inch deep.

Manufacturing goes offshore for a couple of reasons. The first is to escape regulation. You remember regulations, those nasty little things that say workers shouldn't be exposed to dangerous chemicals and dangerous working conditions? Those nasty little regulations that say kids should be in school and not working 6 twelve hour days? Or that governments shouldn't use prisoners to make products and take away jobs from decent folk.

Unions didn't drive business offshore. Manufacturers went offshore for one reason. Increased profit. Remember the days when northern businesses moved to the southern US to escape unions? Remember what happened? They were there for a while, then decided to go to Mexico. Then later they decided to head for the Pacific Rim. It wasn't about unions, that was just the red herring they tossed out. It was about corporate greed.

Remember the old days when an employer, so long as they could pay themselves a decent salary, maybe show a profit, they would stay in business out of loyalty to the people that made their product? Today they will close the doors and move offshore, not because they are unprofitable. Often they are making record profits, but can make more offshore, but gosh we are sorry we have to take you and your families livelihood away.

And all the while your buddies in the Republican party continue to pass laws that don't protect US workers, but make it easier for industrialists to ship our jobs away.

pdq doesn't like it when I attack your views. Tough shit. It is long past the time to drop the gloves. Your views are dangerous to working families.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:26 AM

14(b), i.e. "right to work states" represent a large majority of the poorest states...

Just check out these so called right-to-work states in terms of greatest percentage of folks living in poverty:

Lousiana 1st

Mississippi 2nd

Alababma 6th

Texas 7th

Oklahoma 8th

Arkansas 9th

Arizona 10th

South Carolina 12th

North Carolina 13th

Idaho 15th

Tenessee 16th

Georgia 19th

Florida 20th

So, bottom line, if yer lookin' to be poor, find yourself a good ol' right-towork state... That are loopsidedly loaded with pooor folks...

(Source: US Census Departemnt)...

Yeah, lotta folks complain about unions but if uit hadn't been for the labor movement alot of these folks would now now be sittin' in front of their computers but still workin' in Boss Hog's widget factory...

Bottom line: right-to-work = poverty...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

Plus, Old Guy, why the "gate"???

Bush has messed up a lot of stuff but he doesn't get the blame for 14(b)...

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:16 AM

Just watched a Today Show segment. Topic? American workers making much less money, with more work being done, and Employers making record profits and the economy booming. Tell you anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:36 AM

If it's the same as the UK it tells me that the increasing number of migrant workers legeal and illegal are so desparate that they are working for less than the minimum wage, so the employers make more profit.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM

Some unions are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

Some corporations are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

.
.

some humans are good and fair ... then some are corrupt and greedy bullies.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM

One of the issues that results in 'corporate greed' is the return of value for the share holders ... in the U.S. and Canada many baby boomers are scrambling to make gains in their upcoming retirement ... notably in pension funds .... it is these pension funds that demand a high yeild of return, i.e. high high corporate profits are required .... it should be noted that many of these funds directly related to private investment, coporate pension plans and union pension plans .... all are out for their own intersts, with out little thought given to the consequences.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

Fair enough, number 6. But your statement is too general. One way to look at whether an organization is corrupt and vulnerable to being ripped off, or overly vulnerable to criminal conspiracy, is to look at a couple of factors. One would be the rate charged to bond its officers. Examination of this data, calculated and tabulated by scientist called actuaries and whose job it is to calculate risk of loss, will show that union officials have the lowest rates available. Much lower than CEO's, business owners, and even members of the clergy. Another would be to contrast the number of indictments for these crimes against the total number of Unions in this country. It is another way of looking at the same data. Again you will find that unions are run very efficiently and in the interests of their members. A third way, oddly enough spawned by Right to Work, is to look at the amount of the monthly dues that unions are allowed to charge non members who are covered by a union contract but choose not to join. This figure is arrived at annually by independent audit. The unions must justify all "chargeable" expenses, and the final figures are subject to review by the Department of Labor. Non chargeable expenses would be money spent on political activities, community service activities, and anything that isn't directly related to the bargaining of contracts and implementation and compliance with the contract. In almost every case the number comes out above 88% and in many cases comes out 95%. So much for the arguments about corruption and wasting money, as well as wasting money on politics.

A sign of intellectual dishonesty is when a person pulls out spectacular examples of something that demonstrates their point, even in the face of empiric evidence to the contrary. They use it to pander to perceptions when the facts fail them. The term for this is demagogery. Either by intent or ignorance, it is what you see when you read Old Guy and DougR's views on this matter. Using the Hoffa story in one example of what I am talking about.

Are unions perfect? Nope. Are they free of corruption? Nope. In both cases there are very few examples of any institutions or leaders in a free society that are. But they are the only real advocates out there for the American middle class. Their special interest is the living and working conditions of the American family in this country, and all over the world. We feel that an injury to a worker anywhere is an injury to all. We feel that someone must stand up against the perceptual onslaught by monied interests on worker representation, which spawns the uninformed or dishonest opinions such as those of Old Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:32 AM

High rates of return and unreasonably high rates on returns are two different beasts...

Most baby boomers who have worked hard and played by the rules can live with a %5 rate quite nicely, unless of course they aren't finished trying to consume as much as they possibly can... But I'd take 5% and with alittle Social Security and Medicaid, I'd be okay... And I'm probably a lot like a lot of boomers...

Double digit rates only screw the younger workers... We are allready doing that by asking them to produce more for less money... That, unfortunately is the flip side of "high" rates of returns...

Also, returns can get mixed up with debt sometimes so folks think they are doing fine but don't realize it that the levels of returns are artificially being propped up with layers of unseen corporate debt... Yeah, Enron hasn't put an end to cookin' of books and artifical profits...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:08 PM

So, who pardoned Hoffa? Nixon, pandering to the unions.

"Right to work" another silly phrase. It should be, right to enjoy all the benefits of a union shop without kicking in a dime. Parasites.
Raids on the pension funds? How often does that happen, and what if there were no pension funds? Who wants to go back to the dark ages when a man could be worked to death for peanuts while the bosses got filthy rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:19 PM

Were are the rest of the right to work states and how do they rank?

Also how the non right to work states rank?

I never said I had a way to keep manufacturing from moving off shore.

It's up to the American people to boycott foreign goods like Hondas and Kubotas.

It is the same way with the high price of gas. We have to drill and refine here in the US and we have to quit driving gas hogs. Because of whiney babies like the Bob Graham in Florida, Directly related to the WAPO, China is drilling off shore of the US where we are not allowed to drill>

Graham said: "The debate over whether to expand domestic exploration obscures the imperative that drilling off our coasts must be regarded as the last resort, not the first resort.

"To [ become energy self-sufficient ], we would have to reduce domestic production, not increase it," Graham said. "Such a reduction would serve as a powerful engine that accelerates conservation and the development of alternative energy sources.

Where is Hoffa? Why would anybody want to harm such a great man?

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM

"Who wants to go back to the dark ages when a man could be worked to death for peanuts while the bosses got filthy rich."

Well, we could go back to the days when we all farmed the land ... reaping the rewards of tilling the crops and practising good husbandry ... where the whole family sticked together to help out from the youngest to the oldest .... but f%$k, then we would have the greedy landlords on our backs, taking hte best of the best and charging us top $$ for our rent.

Ok ... then all let's go back to the days when we could reap the bounty from the sea, and all become fishermen .. but then .................

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

Only two right-to-work states are in the top 10 states with the lowest poverty rates: Virginia and Wyoming.... But keep askin', Old Guy... Each qustion yolu asks make the right-to-work states look worse off...

And, yeah, Kendall is 100% on the money when he observes there are plenty of folks out there who have benefited from the labor unions who are too selfish tio throw a few peas in the pot... That, my friends, is what I call a welfare mentality... Yeah, let otrher folks fight for my standard of livin'... I'm too buay to be bothered...

BTW, what kind of work did you do, Old Guy???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM

Will some one clear up this "Right to Work" term. Does this refere to the Bacon-Davis Act because if it does then there's a bit being left out?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM

The neo cons won't rest until we are all back begging for a living wage and being thrown on the dump when we are used up or injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM

I remember my dad working very hard to improve the air quality at the pulp and paper mill. He had to do this through the Union because the owners of the mill didn't give a damn. Thanks to him and many other unionized workers, there are now vastly improved working conditions.

He died of emphysema.

You'll never convince me that unions are unecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:24 PM

No, Barry... Davis-Bacon is about having companies that hire minorities...

"Right-to-work" come from a not-so-little provision in the Taft-Hartley Act known as 14(b) which allows states to to make closed shops (100% unionized) illegeal... In essence, it's anti-labor since anyone can go to work for a company and not have to participate with the union or pay dues...

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

Big Mick: My true color? I just confirmed by looking in the mirror that I am white.

I delt with union leaders most of my professional life. I can't say that all of the decisions they made (in the cases of which I am aware) were made in the best interest of the membership.

If union leaders are so democratic, why don't they let the membership decide wwhich political party will receive that union's financial backing and support? Not all union members are registered Democrats.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

what kind of work did you do, Old Guy???

Sheet metal. We had air conditioning in our shop back in the 60's. When it got too hot to work, some buys from a union shop we knew would knock off and come over to our shop to cool off. There is where the former union business agent worked on the layout bench. He got kicked out for taking bribes or embezzeling money.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

The primary provision of Davis Bacon is the prevailing wage provision. It is used in the construction trades in order to prevent contractors from importing workers from low wage areas and bringing them to an area of the country to undercut wages and benefits. In essence it provides a guideline, based on local area scale, that must be paid. It is based on all wages in the given trade in the local area.

Again DougR and Old Guy fall to demagogery. They tell isolated stories that may or may not be true, in an effort to disprove through innuendo that which cannot be backed up by empirical fact. That is why I tell them their true colors shine through. They both know it to be true which is why they keep using it. Example: Old Guy continues to refer to Hoffa in a discussion of right to work laws. He knows his arguments don't hold water, so he attempts to shift the premise. Weak intellect equals weak argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

What you intelectuals fail to realize it that unions once served a purpose. Now laws take over those purposes and unions are outdated. They do more harm than good.

Unions do things, or did things like requiring a person be paid an exorbitant wage to shovel coal on a diesel powered train. Then they bitch about inefficiency in the government.

Of course an intellectual could see the logic in that, like the emperors new cloths.

Beginning in the late 1930's, but really gaining momentum in the late 1940's, railroads began to replace steam locomotives with diesel engines. Diesel locomotives were more reliable, easier to maintain, easier to operate (no coal to shovel) and could go much longer distances without service (steam engines stopped frequently for more water). As this transition occurred, railroad companies very reasonably sought to eliminate the position of "fireman" on diesel trains. After all, without a boiler and coal to shovel, the fireman role was totally redundant on a diesel engine. Railroad unions were nothing if not gutsy, and in response they argued that not only would they not accept elimination of the fireman position, but they campaigned for an addition of a second fireman on diesel engines. Railroads found themselves in the position of actually having to fight a nearly successful effort to increase the number of firemen on crews. As a result, they ended up accepting the fireman role, and generations of railroad men cruised about the country on engines for the next 40 years, doing virtually nothing for their pay. Railroads were still fighting to eliminate the fireman in the 1990's. In some cases, railroads were actually forced to pay "lonesome pay" to some engineers when the firemen were removed from their crew.

More here

How many people are sitting on their asses in Detriot, reading magazines while getting paid a full wage? The Unions are running the US auto makers out of business.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:35 AM

Well, OPld Guy, the only reason that you now have the time to sit in fronmt of your computer rather than still be in some sweat shop is because of the labor movement... Yeah, all tradesmen have the labor movement to thank...

Now Boss Hog has propagated this mis-guided opinion that labor unions are evil and no longer needed... Wrong... They are needed more today than any time in the last 25 years as workers real wage have been in a slide for the last 25 years...

Even the minimum wage has lost 42% of it's buying power over that period... Ans just as we saw during the labor movement of the last century, Boss Hog is living like a king...

As for labor unions running the American auto manufacurer out of business, you couldn't be more wrong... What is driving the American auto companies to ruins is bad product *plus* it's bad management of it's own resources in not setting aside the money it promised it's workers in benefits and retirement packages... That's the long and skinny...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:38 AM

"money it promised" When pressed by labor unions.

Henry Ford raised all of his workers to an unheard of level with out any assistance from a union but they had to work for it. No dead asses could slack off and have the union defend him.

And how may people are sitting on their asses in Detroit reading magazines and getting paid full scale because of a slowdown in auto sales?

All of my cars and trucks are American.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

So what do you drive Old Guy? Honda? Nissan? Toyota? Volkswagen?

We own one of those nasty Japanese cars. The company is part of Chrysler now which is of course Daimler....but our car was built completely in Australia and never saw any of Japan, Germany, or Detroit for that matter. While Unions are a part of the automotive story, they are far from the whole story and NOT the downfall of Detroit as you suggest. And that crappola about the railroads is totally laughable. I'd argue the point but any discussion with you goes nowhere fast. Suffice it to say that the big railroads "engineered" their own demise by fighting with the BLF&E and not the US government who was the real enemy.

On a happy thought, your posts have become a consistent source of amusement! When you decided to simplify your life I think you should have put more thought into not becoming simple-minded as well. Keep those chuckles coming....along with a few guffaws and belly laughs as well!   

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

Unions are running the US auto makers out of business.

No, turning out expensive, gas-guzzling shit is what's driving the U.S. automakers out of business.

In addition, half the parts of "U.S. made" autos are no longer made in the U.S.

What's driving jobs offshore is unbridled corporate greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:15 AM

It's true that Henry Ford raised his employees pay, but was it for their benefit? Hell no! He figured that if his workers had the money they would buy his cars. Totally self centered. He also demanded that they not smoke,not drink, and go to church on Sunday. And you complain about a guy reading?
When the auto workers went on strike for a living wage, they were set upon by thugs hired by Boss Hogg, and were killed! And that happened in other industries as well. Even the governor of a certain south western state sent in the Militia to break the strike. They mowed the men women and children down with machine guns!
Of course there is corruption in the labor movement. There is feather bedding and all, but at least the union bosses don't shoot people down!

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM

I own a Subaru Outback ... great quality Japanese car with a sticker on the back window proudly stating ... "Union Made in Illinois".

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

CORRECTION .... the sticker says "Union Made in Indiana"

regardless ... it's a Japanese vehicle made in the u.s.a. ... whose quality is reflected by the union workers who made it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:46 AM

Sorry Six...Forgot Subaru (and a few others as well like Mazda)! How could I omit Subaru? "The Official Car of the US Ski Team"

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM

Old Guy continues to mouth the classic lines used to bust unions. It's understandable. He is obviously a mouthpiece for management, if not management himself. I expect he will deny it but he uses the same tired old responses that I hear in every organizing campaign. Why does management use this stuff? What do they care if their employees have a contract? Simple, more money for them. I could almost understand this, if times were hard for them. But they aren't. They make record profits, and want more and they want to achieve it by taking it out of the workers pockets.

Here is an example of Old Dog's (whom I suspect is a union buster disguising himself as a nice old fella) statements:What you intelectuals fail to realize it that unions once served a purpose. Now laws take over those purposes and unions are outdated. They do more harm than good. Really? The past 20 years or so have seen a steady weakening of the laws that protect workers and their families. We have seen the passage of the horrific NAFTA and CAFTA laws which give preference to countries with horrible labor standards to the detriment of US families. Our workers are still the most productive in the world, but they can't compete against low wage, no labor standards, no benefits, no overtime conditions.

Unions are outdated? Anyone been watching the attempts by the US Chamber of Commerce, and the Manufacturing associations to drop employer paid health care? And they want to do it with no replacement system in place. Won't hurt them, but will kill average families. Who is fighting against this but unions?

Unions are outdated and unneeded? Seen what's been happening to pensions and retirement plans? Does Ken Lay ring a bell? How many more folks have to work their whole lives, think they have retirement income, and end up broke. Not because they made bad choices, but because they were lied to. Their employers manipulate the value of the company, inflate the value of the stock, folks put it in their 401K, then find out it was all a scam to fool stockholders, but after the top folks ran off with the money. Who will fight for this but Unions. The law didn't even protect these people. And only the unions are fighting to strengthen these laws.

We see a steady weakening of the laws that make a workplace safe, and a corresponding increase in workplace injury and death. Our environmental laws are steadily being decimated and there is a corresponding rise in the pollution that will kill us all.

But perhaps the most ominous sign is the steady migration of money from the poorest to the richest. The steady centralizing of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. The middle class slipping steadily down the slope of working more hours, several jobs, and all for less money. And at the vanguard of those fighting to reverse this are the unions. We are bloodied, the law no longer provides a level playing field. We are under constant attack. The time may come where we must take it to the streets again. But despite the half truths, misconceptions, and outright lies of folks like Old Guy we will continue the struggle. We aren't perfect, but we are committed. You are a dupe, Old Guy, either unwittingly or by intent, for the monied interests in this world who believe in themselves as the over class, and the rest of us as a mere commodity.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

And from the Census report: Table A-2 on Page 38 shows that men's earnings are lower now, adjusted for inflation, than they they were in 1973...

But, I think I know why Old Guy has taken to spout off Boss Hog's fight song and Big Mick hit upon it also... Yeah, I don't think Old Guy was on the labor end of the sheet meatl industry... He speaks very much like management... BTW, the Census Report has some very good news for management... the top 1/5th of income earners earn 50.4 percent of all the money and thgis is the highest percentage since 1967... And even better news for management... The biggest gains have been enjoyed by the upper 5%...

Like I said... We need more unions, not less... The laws that are supposed to be helping the working class are really helping Boss Hog...

BTW, why is it okey for a major corporation to reorganize under the bnakruptcy laws and break promises made to their empoyeees but not okay for some poor 19 year old college kid who has been enticed by a credit card company no given the same protection under the bankruptcy laws in regards to the presditory lenders who all but held the poor kid to the ground to get him to take ther card in the first place???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:13 PM

Beware a long post but an intersting & true enough story

As one who has worked in & out of constructions unions from the east coast to the west coast (US) to the Pacific Islands I think I've
earned a right o speak my mind on ths topic.

First to Mick, cause he knows personally how I feel about Unions, Mick well said & good for you for the above posts.

I 1st joined the Boston Roofers, Waterproofers & Allied Workers Local 33 in 1971. It soon became a very corrupted union (not cause I joined). The new officers soon were soon taking home the till, though it took a while for it to be noticed. Let me say now that my uncles had been charter members & I & my cousin were all union men & members. My cousin eventually caught on to what was going on & started a personnal campain against it. I was too busy to notice or bother, I was quite a wild young'n & was busy sowing wild oats when not working. Well my cousin took a terrible beating for his troubles & I was sought out as a way to convince my cousin to shut his mouth. I was also took a beating from the then president who had in the past served time for murder, not a pleasant bunch. I in turn took the President, Business Agent & the union into federal court. In the meantime I had to hide out in Austin, Texas because they (union officials) were debating to to put a mob contract out to hit me & my cousin. Eventually both the Business Agent & the President were sent to federal prisons for a few years (& I wasn't dead). By that time both my cousin & I went to work in non-union shops. The e-board found both my cousin & I to still be members in good standing & welcomed us back in. My cousin went to work for the MBTA & stayed there & is still there. I on the other hand continued in my trade but never went back to the union, there were to many people that owed favors to these two plus they had far more relations working there than I did & working on the edge of a 30 story building with some one I didn't know was to much of a risk. Anyway, as a union roofer learning other trades was out of the question (a fault that they corrected many yrs latter). As a non union worker I also became a fair hand at being (as long as it was assocated with the roof) a carpenter (parapit walls, decks & etc) a sheet metal fabricator (metal edges, flashings, etc), plumber (drains, scuppers, gutters, drain lines & leaders, etc), Masonary (chimneys, parapit & penthouse walls, etc), Iron work (repairing & installing metal decks & welding), Caulker, Painter & Rigger (for stagging). After leaving the field I went into business for myself & wore all the hats
involved, sold the buiness & went to work for the folks that bought it. From there I became management. I was the saftey officer, lead estimator, Job Super, negotiator with owners of the projects both private, government & public up to 5 million. Dealt with the unions,
(we became a union shop after my 1st few years), the architects & engineers, construction managers & supers. so I think my opinions here are valueable.

First, the unions were responsible for the common wage earning labor's life to reach a middle class were there once wasn't a middle class. The union brought up those wages of the non union worker alike. It brought in the 40 hour work week, which today's work force is losing ground with it also brought the 8 hr day & the 5 day work week, again ground is being lost here too as well as the overtime pay that it fought so hard to get. It brought in health benifits & retirement & pension plans, which again we see here ground being lost. It brought about sick time, vacation time, holidays & family days, time off for pregant women with out the fear of the loss of jobs. Well, it is dying, they did do all this but they're getting old now some say. They're not getting old they're are just being beaten down, since Regean took office thy've been run into the ground. Sure there were some nasty unions & probably still are but it's up to their members & supporters to fight like I had to. It's up to the public to see that they stay healthy. To honor picket lines, boycotts & refuse to shop at the Wal-Marts of the world. When you know that companies like Nestles treat their over seas workers like cattle & that they're pushing their substandard baby formular on 3rd world mothers & killing both Mothers & children you shold as a collective public take action & do something. This is the behavior that brought the South African government to it's knees & this is what would bring our work home from their outsourced overseas homes. This is what would bring our worker's living wage back to where it should be & their health, retirements & pension plans back to the levels where they should be. If many of these national, international, multinational & mega companies were unionized their folks would've been far better off & recieved more than a false gold plated golden handshake when it was their time to sail off into the sunset. Unions are becoming redundent only because the public is letting it happen & they're letting it happen because both the big business & the government are in bed together reaping in their criminal rewards while driving the middle class down into the poor & driving the poor into the graves.

Lastly, the unions aren't responsible for the demise of the auto industry & the airlines, etc, big business & the government is. The 1 nite stands the public could stand but all these marriages, please. On there own & left to themselves in their own capital worlds they'd mamage fine or make way for others but they make lously bedfellows both too greedy & self serving, too manipulating & way too interested in themslves. So in the end they've devorced the public & the public is the one that's getting laid to waste.

There, sorry it's been such a long post but I've put my own life on the line as a worker & a fighter & I just hate to see us go back to the days when business ruled with an Iron Fist as it appears to ready to do again.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:37 PM

Well penned Barry as always.....and I want to say "well lived" too, but that's not the right wording.......

You have always seemed to be a man who truly has gained learning from life, often the hard way, but learning nonetheless. You use that experience well and have worked your personal beliefs from it all. I think you will readily challenge your own beliefs as hard and well as those of others. You, Mick, and many others here, are all too rare in this world of rigid idiots and milk toast fools.

It is the thing that makes this place special......You just don't meet Barry Finns in most places.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM

Good one Barry .... says it all. Thanks.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM

Laws take over the purpose of unions?

B.C. has a new child labour law that has lower standards than India.

"Besides legalizing child labour, Bill 37 also lowered the province's minimum wage to $6 an hour ($5.35 US) - the lowest in Canada - by establishing a two-tiered "minimum" rate.

The $6 "first job/entry level" wage applies to new employees in the work force. They are exempted from qualifying for the second-tier $8 minimum wage until they have worked at least 500 hours with more than one employer."

Read more:
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2006/n13au06a.htm

or

http://www.lcc.gc.ca/research_project/pr/gen/resources/irwin_2005-en.asp

That Guy doesn't have a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:48 AM

I'm talking about a real country.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 12:58 AM

Please list the 'real' countries you're talking about or better yet, name some of the laws that have taken the place of negotiated working conditions and wages that you claim are in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:22 AM

Old Guy .. "I'm talking about a real country" ... do you mean my passport is a fraud ??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: kendall
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 06:58 AM

A REAL COUNTRY? Folks, this is an excellent example of American arrogance, and one of the reasons we are iniversally hated.
Old Guy, you go too far.You just lost all credibility with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:21 AM

Yeah, Old Guy has really shown his true colors here...

Thanks, Barry... My exact sentiments... What we need are more unions 'cause everyone but Boss Hog is going backwards...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right to Workgate
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM

Old Guy, you go too far.You just lost all credibility with me.

Only now? It took this long? ;>)