BS: Only One Sex Needed...

Subject: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:35 PM

Sometimes I wonder what kind of corner we are boxing ourselves into.

Abnormalities Noted

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM

This is not unusual in nature. Many species are bi sexual.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: MMario
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:46 PM

and a lot of fish species naturaly switch back and forth between genders. Which is not to say that pollutants couldn't upset the balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:51 PM

Like I said in another thread....

We only have the one child.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 12:58 PM

Banana slugs have both male and female sex organs. When they can't find another slug with whom to make whoopie, they mate with themselves. They are also a University mascot, and the name of the school's sports team.

Go Banana Slugs!

Elmer

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 01:08 PM

From the "Everything you need to know about Life you learned from Star Trek" Dept;

"As near as I can figure, these things are BORN pregnant!"

             Dr. (Bones) McCoy, speaking of the bisexual Tribbles producing offspring faster than anyone, save Vulcans, could count.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 02:51 PM

Hey. You guys are missing the message. This development (no pun intended) in these particular animals is new. Unless your observations are of greater validity than those of scientists who are studying and reporting on the phenomenon?

"Although scientists have not identified the source or sources of the problem, the results appear to suggest that the Potomac River and its tributaries have a problem with so-called "endocrine disrupters," which can tamper with natural chemical signals.

"In the past 10 years, pollutants mimicking hormones have raised alarms around the world as alligators, frogs, polar bears and other animals have developed abnormalities.

"Scientists have identified a large number of pollutants that could be to blame — including human estrogen from processed sewage, animal estrogen from farm manure, certain pesticides and soap additives."

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Dead Horse
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

All we have to do is flush a few contraceptive pills down the loo and all will be well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:19 PM

It's not that new.. it's been around for more than 15 years, and probably for as long as the contraceptive pill has been around. As long as people keep taking these pills, peeing, flushing and having it enter the water table again, it'll happen.

It's not good, but short of stopping all medication or artificial hormone use, it's going to continue happening.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:35 PM

From the article linked by Ebbie:

"The discovery in Minnesota over a decade ago of frogs with extra legs, ovaries in males and other deformities was considered an early warning sign of environmental distress linked to farm chemicals.

Congress in 1996 required the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to study how the pollutants may affect human health. A decade later, however, officials said the agency hasn't tested any chemical, the Post reported.

"I would have hoped it would have been faster, but this is a very difficult program," said Clifford Gabriel, director of the EPA's Office of Science Coordination and Policy."



R I G H T

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 05:52 PM

So what you have is a U.S. Governmental Protection Agency, a Congress with no balls, and a buggered ecosystem.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Grab
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 06:00 PM

One problem is that deformities actually occur fairly often in nature. From what I've read, reptiles are particularly prone, possibly because of the unpredictability of an embryo developing with lots of random variations in temperature.

There's a classic case around Chernobyl. Folks doing testing downwind of the reactor found a fair number of animals born with deformities. Disaster! Radiation! Mutants! And then they checked *upwind*, and found just as many...

Bottom line is that unless you know 100% what the standard rate of deformities is for a species, you can't say. It's quite possible that these fish may naturally do this fairly often, and the only difference is that humans have started paying attention. It's even possible that other groups like fishermen may already know about this, or individuals may have noticed it but not commented on it, so it never got as far as the boffins. This isn't to discount the effect of pollutants in the environment, which sadly is all too real (mercury, dioxins, etc), but until you know what's "normal" then you're not in a position to even take a educated guess.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 06:52 PM

That is true; however, that is no reason not to devise a study that will answer the whys. Notice that so far (10 years later) no testing has been done. Ya'd figure by now that at least the baseline stuff would have been determined (measured). That ain't happened.

Canada (in Lake Athabasca) has a problem that is quite similar, but the subjects are not frogs or fish, they are human.My nephew lived in northern Saskatchewan for many years. His wife and he ran a trapline from the Reserve. He noticed that the death rate of newborns was and is substantially higher than the federal averages (even the First Nations federal averages which are twice that of the non-Aboriginal population). The places where that occurs are located on rivers that flow from Lake Athabasca. The obvious place to look is Uranium City which is on the north shore of the Lake. However, no one wants to look there. Friggin' ugly is what it is. Many people (mostly Native) have been and continue to ask for the Feds to get off their collective arses and find out what is going on. IMO, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. The difficulty with finding a problem is that ya have to address it. Can't have that now, can we?

If you need a lesson (don't mean to imply you do) in that crap, read about Grassy Narrows and mercury poisoning. In Ontario, Canada. It is disgusting. Like no one knew--my ass. Hell, it was even named Minamata Disease. It had already happened in Japan.

We are leaving the children of this planet a sewer to live in, on and with. Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:27 PM

As I see it, the danger to the fish population is that if too many fish undergo some type of sexual transformation, normal reproduction patterns and processes will be altered.

As other posters have pointed out, male/female sexual characteristics aren't as "hard-wired" in fish as they are in mammals. For example, all groupers are born female but some undergo transformation into males at a certain point in their development. How many undergo this transformation depends upon the ratio of males to females within the adult population. Both males and females excrete hormones into the water and a "female heavy" mix promotes more female-to-male transformation. But once enough fish have been transformed into males the hormonal soup becomes "male heavy" and transformations cease.

Smallmouth bass and other sunfish don't ordinarily exhibit this sexual transformation capability but it's probably not buried too deeply within their genetic makeup. The observed transformations within their populations is due to chemical pollutants mimicking hormones. The problem is that such transformations stimulated by natural hormones cease when the proper male/female balance has been achieved. Artificially introduced hormones, on the other hand, have the capability of stimulating sexual transformation within the entire population of an affected area, thus rendering reproduction impossible. If all the female fish turn male, who's going to lay the eggs?

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 07:37 PM

"In the past 10 years, pollutants mimicking hormones have raised alarms around the world as alligators, frogs, polar bears and other animals have developed abnormalities."

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 09:59 PM

Environmental pollutants in the form of endocrine disruptors and estogen mimics are also implicated in the rising incidence of precocious puberty in humans.

There are many sites dealing with this issue, this is one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 02:01 AM

with a mouth action like that, they were always going to try it sometime....

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 03:48 AM

True... but isn't it more fun with two?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Only One Sex Needed...
From: Grab
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:54 AM

I thoroughly agree, Peace. But the reflex reaction of the reporter to say "it's chemicals", and Ebbie's unqualified support on that, are not supported by evidence here. Even the scientist involved says that it's a very small sample so you can't tell one way or the other - it needs more information. (An alien's "sample" of human life would be a bit different if they abducted ten uni lecturers than if they abducted ten people from an autism clinic. ;-)

Re Guest's comment, what causes these effects in other animals might be different from what's doing it here. We just don't know yet.

And as you say, Peace, the main culprit in the lack of information is lack of funding of the EPA. Lack of funding stemming from lack of political commitment.

Graham.