Normandy cemeteries

Subject: Normandy cemetaries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:12 AM

We just spent a very moving few days in Normandy. My wifes mother visited her first husbands grave some years back. He died in the Normandy landings of June 1944. Having seen the grave she always expressed a wish to have her ashes places with him in the British cemetary at Bayeux. Last wednesday we honoured that wish.

For my wifes sister it was even more of an experience because it was her fathers grave as well - She was 8 months old when he died and had never seen the grave. There was no ceremony, just a simple farewell and rememberence but all went very well. We left the graveside with a feelings of peace and closure that were left a little unfinished after her cremation here in the UK back in January.

The commonwealth war graves commision do a wonderful job of maintaining those cemetaries and when we saw it we realised it was no wonder that she wanted her final resting place to be there. It was moving in the extreme as well to see those four and half thousand graves in one place. Very few of those buried had reached the age of thirty. Most seemed to be in their teens.

We also visited the American cemetary above Omaha beach where over nine thousand young men are buried. That was very different, but no less moving, than the British graves. None of the headstones in the American graveyard gave the age of the interred or any details of the surviving relatives . It also found it significant that all the graves at Omaha were marked with either a cross or a star of David, whereas at Bayeux the shape of the memorial stone indicated the nationality and religious symbols were left to the discresion of the relatives, if any.

The unknown fallen were perhaps the most tragic to see in both places but one memorial at Bayeux realy had the hairs on the back of my neck standing. A tripe stome to the whole of a flight crew. Buried as they died - together. Presumably because they could not identify which part belonged to whom.

I have posted some photoes on my web space Here If anyone wants more information on them feel free to ask.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:34 AM

It's an amazing experience Dave. I was there a few years ago, just when they were getting ready to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the landings.

Standing on those beaches and looking at what those young men had to do to get off the landing craft and up the beach just sent shivers down my spine. I talked to some old guys there, only to find that they were survivors of the landings. Some of their recollections can make you feel very humble. These were old men that you would pass in the street without a thought and, all those years ago, they were in a situation that must have taken every bit of courage they had.

The cemeteries were very moving but left me with an anger at the futility of a conflict that took the lives of so many young people.

Nothing really changes, does it?

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:59 AM

Thanks for telling us about it Dave. I remember seeing the "reward", which hundreds of young men got for their victory in the Battle of Kleve and Wesel. I can be very grateful that I have never experienced anything like that, but I do not feel smug about it, not in the slightest. I am glad for you that you were able to make what was obviously a very moving trip.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM

Dave - Hovering Bob has been organising a weekend to the First War stuff in Flanders - Talbot House in Poperinge is the centre , witha Folk session on the Saturday evening as well as trips out to the various Cemeteries . I managed to get along a few years back - Well worth the visit !

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: GUEST,Dinky
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:35 PM

Your postings are much appreciated, but, just for the record, the spelling is 'cemetery'.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:47 PM

Thanks Dinky - I knew someone would spot it! How many different ways did I achieve? Hopefuly I never spelled it right and every pedant on the 'cat will refresh the thread by pointing it out.

Keep up the good work:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemateries
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:08 PM

Thank you, very much Dave, for sharing with us. (I couldn't get the photos to work. It just said "loading" but nothing came up.) My cousin sent me photos of another beach-type invasion site from WWII, I think in Egypt or near, it's on my old harddrive so I can't check it. The graves, the cannons still aimed, etc. ran chills up and down my spine. It's so true..they still walk among us and one would never know without asking and the futility of it all still remains as jacqui noted. It is good you were able to fulfill your wife's mother's wishes.

kat

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

If anyone experiences the same with photos loading but wants some shots of either the beaches or the cemeteries feel free to get in touch.

I have a shot of an unknown American soldiers grave. Ditto with a Polish soldier. The oddest shot I took was three comrades in death. A Canadian, a Seikh and a Pole buried next to each other. I suspect the only thing they had in common was falling in Normandy but there they are, a memorial to mans fight against oppression. I get a lump in my throat just thinking about it.

In the words of the immortal Keith Marsden

Those Normandy orchards are waiting to welcome
New partners for death in the mad dance of war.

I hope I never have to face that situation.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:33 PM

We visited the area in May this year and agree with all Dave says. Last year we were near Paris and visited the war memorial at Vimy (Canadien) and were very moved by what we saw there. My grandfather is buried at Arras and one day I will visit. He dies in 1916 at the Somme.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

As well as the big Cemetery at Bayeux there are several small British Cemeteries dotted about Normandy as well as a host of other sites related to the Normandy landings.

One year we took my Father on Holiday with us in Normandy and while we were visiting one of the small cemeteries, he came across what was obviously the grave of a Lancaster crew. This upset my Father very much and we had to leave. He was in the RAF during WWII and lost many friends during that time, including one in the great escape from Stalag Luft III and seeing that grave clearly brought back memories he would rather have forgotten.

My Father was an airframe fitter in Coastal Command which was the cinderella command of the RAF. The aircrew patrolled over the sea searching for German Warships and submarines. Those who were shot down would have gone down over the ocean so those companions he lost will mostly be without graves at all - except for Davy Jones Locker.

Just after I was born, my Father's squadron was sent to India and they became involved in flying supplies into Burma after the defeat of Japan. They would overhaul the aircraft then the ground crew would climb aboard and when they were over the drop zone the bomb doors were opened and they heaved out the rice bags which had been stacked in the bomb bays of the aircraft. My Father was qualified to receive the Burma Star campaign medal but he never collected it because he said that others were in much greater danger than he ever was.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:25 PM

I had a great great uncle who fell in Arras. He was one of those who didn't get a grave, but his name is on the memorial at Vis en Artois, Pas de Calais. We visited a few years ago, but I'd like to go back... it was one of those lasting memories that bear repeating.

The other year, I was in France, just after the 60th D-Day anniversary. We visited Caen and the incredible museum there. Funny how a load of hairy bikers can be turned into solemn, sniffling humans by the sight of so much unnecessary death.

LTS

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 12:58 AM

Holy Bat Enclaves Greenlantern!!!!

WHY - would any living person hover over cemeteries?

Go inland thirty minutes and ravish the ravines of "Swiss Normany." Life is for living - not grieving.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:12 AM

I thought it was obvious why a living person would be in a cemetery. To bury someones remains. I thought I made that clear in my opening post.

And it may be BS to you, unamed guest, but not to a lot of others.

Ah well, it takes all sorts...

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 05:55 AM

Just last week a Halifax bomber crew were buried properly, their remains in a single small coffin.
Their bodies were excavated by the local people from the crash site in Holland.
I have visited the battlefields of Flanders, The Somme, and Arnhem.
As the father of twins I found the side by side graves of twin lads at Arnhem desperately poignant, and also the family epitaphs on many stones.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM

I have also walked on the beaches there. It was many years ago. I had to acknoweledge the sense of memories was thick.

Desperate poignancy, if you are short of it, is one reason to hover in cemeteries.

I think a more important one, which Gargoyle is desperately overlooking, is to gain an understanding of the consequences of human stupidity and renew a commitment to overcome it it wherever possible.

A

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:50 PM

Gargoyle, you should go to the Menin Gate at Ypres and take a look. A very large monument with every surface covered with names. Names of people whose lives were cut short and were not able to get on with living. Names of people whose remains were never found, or at least were unidentifiable.

I found it a most upsetting experience. It brought home to me just how futile war is.

Yes life is for living, but that monument and others like it and the war cemeteries in Northern France and Flanders are monuments those who were not able to get on with their lives.

All because of some bloody stupid politicians playing "Chicken" with each other.

Nothing much has changed, has it?

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:11 AM

One thing has changed.
Now the politicians have never been soldiers themselves, and their own sons are never on the front line.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:31 AM

It's not just the big memorials, look at any town or village war memorial. Our small village has over 30 names from WW1, a much smaller number thankfully from the second.

A while ago, local children were climbing on the memorial (it's surrounded by an iron railing 'cage' and great fun), and an elderly lady told them off roundly. She had lost a brother in WWII, so perhaps she had good cause. But I couldn't help thinking that if I had died far from home and loved ones, the thought of children happily playing round my memorial might have eased the last moments.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Trevor
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:35 AM

I'd echo the postings above about the smaller cemeteries. When I lived in Normandy a few years ago I came across one, just a little place at a crossroads. It was a beautiful day, I had a bit of time to kill so went in for a wander. It was so beautifully kept and the entries in the visitors book were very, very moving - I'm glad I took the time.

I also found a war cemetery for German dead and that was even more moving - it really brought home to me the human side of the war. Having been born in the post-war period I grew up shooting imaginary Germans in the playground because they were evil baddies. The gravestones told me that Hans and Klaus and Dieter were young men shoved into battle, probably scared shitless and ending up just as dead as their 'opponents', with families who missed them just as much as the ones who write the comments in visitors books at any of the war grave sites.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 05:09 AM

Trevor - With you all the way on that - When Ii went to Flanders , I visited the German War Graves site , as well as some of the British ones ! Just as moving !
And Harvey Andrews' song 'Hans' looks at the same view point !

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM

Ypres is a very sobering site indeed. Then the realisation that Waterloo is just down the road, and Crecy, and a hundred other battles. That little corner of Europe has been the battleground of Europe for far too long.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:47 PM

Lest We Forget.

Nicely done Dave; my sincere condolences to your family. May God grant them eternal peace, and keep them with the memory and gratitude of the living.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:42 AM

The saddest story of those village memorials is the death of a generation, and in some villages, the death of half the village.

The millions of names at Ypres, Menin, Porstmouth, Tyne Cot, Chatham, Auckland NZ, El Amien and others mean very little other than sheer overwhelming numbers when seen in bulk. Break that down into the towns and villages where these men and women lived and it becomes heartbreaking.

The village of Abbotsbury in Dorset is a 'Grateful Parish' - no-one from the village was killed in WWII. The WWI memorial tells a different story. There are 13 names on it; 2 brothers and a father in law killed on the same day; a relative to the Earl of Ilchester; 9 who have no known grave; 1 who came home to die; 1, of whom there is no record other than his name.

These dozen men represented the greater bulk of young manpower in the village. Their ages range from 18-41 ~ a whole generation. Had fishing not been a main industry, it would have been more.

I'm not one for mass public grieving (it having reached hysterical proportions in recent years) but a War Memorial or cemetery will always warrant a moment of reflection, a salutation or a silent prayer.

LTS

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 08:31 AM

US readers may not be aware that every tiny hamlet and village here has its war memorial, paid for with great sacrifice by the people in very hard times.
Always worth a look and a moment's reflection.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:05 AM

British War Memorial Project

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission

United Kingdom National Inventory of War Memorials

Roll of Honour

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM

In the cemeteries, all are equal in death.
Rank has no privilage. All lie side by side.
There are huge cemeteries where the dead were brought in from surrounding areas and reburied, and many small ones. Often a shell hole or a trench that served as a mass grave. The stones on these may not mark the exact resting place of the individual.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: 3refs
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM

Just a little story!
November 1916 somewhere at The Battle of The Somme. My Grand Father, Richard H Pearsall, while in his trench, recieved a telegram announcing the birth of his daughter on October 20, 1916. The dispatcher and his fellow comrades wanted to know if she had been named. I'm sure that they were quite suprised that she had been christened Richie Alexandria. Perhaps not as suprised as the dispatcher. He told my Grand Father that he had just delivered another telegram to a Thomas Alexander Chislom, who's sister had just given birth to a baby girl with the same name! My Grand Father and my Great Uncle met for the first time in those muddy trenches as my Great Uncle had been a Northwest Mounted Policeman prior to the start of the war and they had never laid eyes on each other befor. They both came home!
My Mother will be 90 in a few days and she will celebrate her birthday with her first grandson Richard who will be 19.

Lest We Forget!

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:38 PM

What a lovely story, 3refs:-)

Firstly - what a coincidence. Sat with my feet up on Sunday still resting after the drive when what should come on telly but "The Longest Day". A very good film. I don't know how accurate it was but I realy enjoyed seeing and hearing about the places I had just been to. Crowning it all was the use of the 'crickets' - I had just bought one. You know what they say about small things and small minds;-)

Onto WW1 - One thing I did notice and I don't know the explanation, was the very small roll of honour in Bayeux cathedral. In my local cathedrals of Salford and Manchester there is almost a full wall remembering the dead. In Bayeux there were very few. Are the French fallen not remembered in the same way or were there fewer dead from Normandy than from round here? If it is the latter it seems very odd. Anyone know?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:43 PM

The cathedrals of British cities usually give the names of all from the local Regiment who fell. I suspect that Bayeux cathedral lists only those of the town.

It's very strange to see the name of someone you know was born in a tiny village in Dorset, way up north on the wall of Durham Cathedral - but if you do go there, spare a thought for J E Christopher, Durham Light Infantry.

LTS

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Slag
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:57 AM

Dave, thank you for your elegant posting. There is so much to take from Normandy. Hard lessons. Warning. Promise. Hope. Bravery and Sacrifice. All who live in freedom today owe an extreem debt of gratitude to those who gave us their tomorrows, their families, their all.

Tootles you are both right and wrong. Wrong because it's not so much the greiving but rather remembering and honoring. And you are right that life is for the living and you are living it in no small part due to the sacrifice of those brave men and others on other beaches and in other cemetaries. You can't let these be forgotten: what they did and why they did it. If you do, it will have to be done again.

And finally we ALL have an appointment with Death. "It is appointed unto Man once to die..." Can you lay your ALL on the alter of Freedom? Can you help to keep the memory? Can you help make the world a better place? To not do so would be to dishonor these men and women who gave their best to you.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: The Walrus
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

All this talk of cemeteries reminds me of Reg.

Reg was a nice old bloke, one of the last survivors of one of the Pals battalions who went over the bags on the First Day of the Somme.
I'd met him a couple of times and he mentioned that he'd often expressed the wish to his family, that, when he died, he wanted his ashes scattered at Serre Military Cemetery, because that's where he nearly ended up and that's where all his mates were.
About six months after I last saw him, I heard from another contact that Reg had died and that his wishes had been ignored and he'd been buried in a cemetery local to his home.

While I can understand the family wanting to keep together, but I feel sad that Reg never got his wish.

Such is life.

W

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:58 AM

Dave, go to any small village in Brittany. You'll see a huge war memorial, with hundreds of names on it, almost all from WWI. The British suffered badly in World War One- but the French suffered far worse. I don't know the figures for Germany, perhaps Wolfgang?

But the French losses in WWI and the resulting trauma explain to a great extent their unwillingness and indeed inability to put up much of a defence in WWII.

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:28 PM

Thanks Paul. I was a little puzzled but that clears it up. It is just a diffent type of memorial in Bayeux cathedral I guess. Must brush up on my French so I can read more when I go again!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Normandy cemeteries
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:38 PM

Go to St Lo. It is interesting and they have taken a slightly different approach there. The Germans put up very stiff resistance at St Lo and the city took a tremendous battering. Most of the city centre was destroyed but the cathederal survived except for the west end. When they rebuilt, some of the ruins were left as a memorial and the west end of the cathederal was rebuilt and they put a very large inscription on the wall separating the old part from the new. I cannot remember what it says now, unfortunately though it clearly related to the war, but in an indirect way. I do not remember lists of names carved on the walls though.