BS: Draws/Ties in US

Subject: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

Why, in the US professional sporting arena, are draws between two teams such an anathama? Obviously, in knock out competitions (World Series, Superbowl, FA cup) you need a winner but in normal league competitions based over a large number of games what's wrong with a draw?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:23 AM

If a draw is acceptable, why keep score at all?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:27 AM

Ahhh Spaw, but if you don't keep score how do you know it's a draw?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:30 AM

LOL....And if a draw is okay anyway, why bother?

Your turn.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:40 AM

Because being equal to someone is a result in itself, Spaw. And snatching a draw the last minute to avoid losing can be as exciting as winning.

Is it a mindset thing, you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:47 AM

Mindset? Yes. Take no prisoners, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:01 AM

I agree with George. To my way of thinking sometimes neither team deserves to lose. Forcing a plucky underdog who has managed to hold an overbearing champion team at bay being forced into overtime and probably ending up losing.

So, thinking aloud so to speak, is the forcing a win in each game a way of trying to ensure that the big money club wins?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM

I suspect it may have something to do with the habit of betting. A draw cancels most bets.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

Why is this even an issue? What is wrong with playing an event out to a definitive conclusion? Why settle for a draw?   Complacency should not have a place in sports. Sport is meant for winners and losers and not something in between.

Betting surely plays a part in it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

More important, games like baseball and basketball deserve a outcome that is more than a draw.

These competitions lend themselves to reaching a decision instead of settling for something inconclusive.

Do tennis matches and golf end in draws?   I'm not a big fan of those sports so I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:36 AM

Tennis matches are played to a conclusion where one side wins.

Golf tournaments have one winner. There may be ties back in the pack. The tied parties split the monies for all the places involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

And if I am not mistaken, both tennis and golf have origins in the UK, and the games are much older than our baseball and basketball.

So what is the story with you Brits and your infatuation with tiebreakers??

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:55 AM

0-0 is a draw.

In some cases, why bother to "play" at all? I'm serious. What's the point in grown men trying to move an oblate spheroid from one end of a field to another against the wishes of other grown men? Or to figure the point of contact of a wooden or aluminum club with a sphere thrown well in excess of 150 kilometers per hour in such a way that a muscle-driven arc of the club will propel the sphere away from the hitter, and all this in a one-g field? -- the math alone is mind boggling!

And the people who do these things are paid far in excess of, say, a good teacher....

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:02 PM

Surely, the point of sport is to put one's best effort into it, and to keep improving, attempt after attempt. The result, whatever that is, should then reflect that effort and ability. At least, that was the way with the original Olympics - it was the effort that was applauded more than anything; even the prizes were of very low monetary value.

If winning was all there was to sport, what are the silver and bronze medals for? And why should the ones who have no realistic chance of winning even take part?

But they do take part, don't they? QED

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:06 PM

Rapaire:

It keeps them from killing each other, you see.

That's worth a lot right there. If the Sunnis and Shiites could be persuaded to learn American football, Iraq would be a smashing success. Give them shoulderpads and let them go at it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:27 PM

Naw, the Sunnis and the Shiites really need to learn Roller Derby.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:59 PM

Roller Derby? They already HAVE demolition derby! Seems to be working.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:05 AM

Ron,

The only motive behind this thread was curiosity. Most team sports that are played in Britain in leagues allow for draws. To me this is a valid result for the reasons mentioned above. Tennis does not allow draws as it is a knock out competition (generally speaking), golf consists of individual competitions that require a winner. Most team sports are generally played in leagues with only 'minor' amounts of knock out competitions.

Is it fair on the teams, fans, broadcasters and the TV viewers to watch, for example, a baseball game that goes into extra innings and finish in the middle of the night just to get a win, especially when the teams may be playing in a different part of the US the following day?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:45 AM

It's national characteristics. Remember that over 144% of all cricket matches end in a draw, whereas a baseball game invariably ends with the dismemberment and consumption of the losing side by the winners, and the total destruction of the city from whence they came, not a stone upon a stone, the earth salted. Dammit, it's UNGENTLEMANLY to even look at the scoreboard. The Corinthians wouldn't even take penalties, but deliberately shot wide.

In the true Spirit of Sport, the true worth of a game is not in who won, but in who took part, and of course whose part they took.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM

Paul, who wins the other 56% of the games then?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:54 AM

Dazbo, I would think it unfair to invest my time in a baseball game for nine innings and not have a clear cut winner.   I love a good extra inning ball game that goes into the wee hours. (Of course, the real problem is that television has forced the games to start way too late.)

I am not sure what team sports you are referring to - other than soccer, rugby and I guess cricket.    Here in the U.S., our soccer league has games that end in ties (although it wasn't always that way). Football also ends in ties.

I know that hockey has overtime, but I thought that was also the way it is played internationally?

It is a cultural thing, and aside from Paul Burke's snide insinuations, there is nothing inherently wrong with wishing to have an outcome in sports like baseball and basketball. Perhaps it is because of the individual performances that are so important to these games, but there is a great thrill to seeing an overtime or extra inning game go to completion.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:52 PM

Sports are (sport is) not my strong point, but I have long been interested in cultural differences between Britain and the US, and this is one of them.

I'd be interested in other countries too, but I happen to have relatives in Britain, and therefore I know a lot more about Britain than other countries I have visited.

Yes, ties (draws) are much more common in British sports than in American sports, and there seems to be a corresponding difference in attitude at least between British vs. American sports fans, and possibly between the societies as a whole.

Cricket is particularly interesting* because the possibility of a draw affects the strategy. There is a rule that, if they don't finish a certain number of innings within a certain time limit (sorry, I'm vague about the details), then the game is a draw even if one team has scored more runs.

(*Interesting—to me—to learn about, but boring to watch! I feel the same about baseball.)

In most cricket games, there comes a point where one team is so far behind, and the time left to play is so short, that they have practically no chance of winning, but they still have a chance to force a tie. At that point, their strategy changes. They begin playing defensively. They stop trying to score runs, and only try to avoid being put out.

Something similar happens—for different reasons—near the end of a US basketball game, when the team that is ahead tries to "run out the clock"—they stop trying to score baskets, and instead only try to avoid letting the other team get their hands on the ball.

It saddens me when I see people get defensive (or offensive, but defensiveness seems more common) when cultural differences are pointed out. I love noticing differences, for the same reason I loved studying cultural anthropology when I was a student many years ago. I find it endlessly entertaining, enlightening, and somehow encouraging, to learn that "human nature" is more flexible than we tend to assume, and that life could easily be much different from what we are used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:49 AM

Ron,

I think Jim here has posed my question much better than I did. I just find it curious that there's this different attitude between us about something so trivial. Perhaps it's just being brought up on football (soccer) and cricket that draws seem such a natural outcome for a game.

When you say football and soccer have ties is this at the end of normal time or after one or more periods of overtime?

Jim, it's true what you say about playing for a draw in cricket (and to a lesser extent other time) but the team that can salvage a draw from the jaws of defeat experiences it as a 'victory' of some kind and the other team as a defeat. Imagine in Baseball if a team comes from 0-12 to 12-12 and then loses in the 10th inning - they'd be heart broken to have come back and then loose whereas in the cricket they would have got some reward for getting into a tieing situation.

Perhaps it comes down to the UK favouring the underdog and the US favouring the victor?

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM

If this kind of thing interests you, see these threads:
BS: British/American cultural differences
BS: British/American cultural differences 2
BS: British/American cultural differences 3

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:10 AM

Ron, in UK soccer a draw, or tie as you call it ,IS an outcome. A team gets one point for a draw, three points for a win, so going to an opponents ground and getting a draw not only gives you a point, but takes two points away from them. Over a season in a league these points are crucial as to who wins the league. In cup games there is always a winning result after extra time or replays.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM

"Imagine in Baseball if a team comes from 0-12 to 12-12 and then loses in the 10th inning - they'd be heart broken to have come back and then loose"

That is exactly right, and that is one of the reasons why many people (myself included) love baseball.   The rules of the game are laid out so everyone knows the chances. Baseball is not a slave to a clock. Each team will have an opportunity to win or lose based on their own skills and perhaps luck.

Hearts break. That is life, and that is any sport.

"Perhaps it comes down to the UK favouring the underdog and the US favouring the victor? "

You are dead wrong there.   In fact, in the U.S. the great thrill comes when the underdog becomes the victor. Some of the most passionate supporters are for teams like the Cubs, Red Sox, and the Mets. These are teams that are known for not making it to the top. When they put it together and achieve victory, it is something special.

Perhaps it is about achieving excellence and not settling for second best.

"I just find it curious that there's this different attitude between us about something so trivial. "
I don't think we think twice about the difference. We love our games, we love to achieve wins, and we will always realize that there is another day to play again.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:17 AM

I think time is the biggest factor, then people's ability to keep going, a football match with everyone on thier knees would be no fun... The alternatives can be replays or rather contrived and never truely satisfactory endings such as penalty shoot outs.

For me, with something like our football league, a draw makes far more sense than trying to force a result. As does the points system (win 3, draw 1, loose 0).

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

Jon, I assume when you say "football" you are referring to soccer and not American football. (Yes, I understand the rest of the world calls it football, but we need to differentiate it because we have so many damn sports here!)

I agree that it makes no sense to carrying on a soccer game.   Shootouts can be fun, but it creates a whole different game. I actually like the NASL-style shootout where the player would have 5 seconds to get off a shot and could run with the ball. More excitement then a stationary shootout and it kept some of the elements of the game.

You can't compare apples and oranges and expect the juice to be the same.   The rules of baseball allow for more substitution, and the manager becomes more of a participant than a football coach.   The manager has to play more strategy - when does he pinch hit or bring in a reliever? How does he manipulate his lineup?   How does he use his bullpen?   This makes for such a complex game that most foreigners can not see to comprehend. It is like the strategy used in chess in many ways.

Soccer in this country has gone into changes. The NASL tried to Americanize it, and many of the European players who experienced the shootout have gone on record to say they prefer it to the penalty kicks.   The NASL tried a 35 yard offside, which changed the strategy but added more offense. But they tinkered way too much, and that contributed to the downfall of the league.

The MLS started with OT and shootouts, but soon dropped it and now the league follows the same draw/tie rules that every other league uses.

As for baseball, it would take away much of the passion and interest if the game were to end in a draw.   The strategy adds a whole new dimension to the game.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: eddie1
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:34 AM

I've never tried football pools in my life but I seem to remember from my father that winnings were based on draws. He always dreamt of having six draws up and winning £75,000! He never did but he did get a postal order for 7/6d once. I think he kept it.
What would happen to the pools industry if draws were done away with? There's enough unemployment already!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM

Yes Ron, soccer. And I do agree that you have to take each game and situation on its own merits. I don't watch baseball or American football (well have seen it but can't stand all the stops/starts, etc.) so don't know...

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

eddie, what you wanted most of all on the pools were score draws, ie. 1-1, 2-2, not 0-0.

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: Micca
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 03:54 PM

"For when the One Great Scorer comes
To write against your name,
He marks-not that you won or lost-
But how you played the game."
Grantland Rice, "Alumunus Football," (Thats American football!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

Dazbo asks, "Is it fair on the teams, fans, broadcasters and the TV viewers to watch, for example, a baseball game that goes into extra innings and finish in the middle of the night just to get a win, especially when the teams may be playing in a different part of the US the following day?"

Yes. Absolutely. As Ron Olesko said on 05 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM, "The rules of the game are laid out so everyone knows the chances. Baseball is not a slave to a clock." Instead, baseball is a "slave" to the rules about extra innings. In some cases, this can mean that the next day's game might have to be rescheduled (unlikely unless, as Dazbo suggests, there are problems with the visiting team's travel plans).

Part of the allure of finishing in the middle of the night is the opportunity for fans to brag the following day, preferably to their co-workers at the water cooler, about how they stayed at the stadium until the end of the game or stayed up to watch it on TV. Sure, it's hard on the players and broadcasters, but that's why they make the big bucks... and besides, I'm sure that those games are remembered and talked about among the players and broadcasters more than most. The extra-inning game becomes a test not only of endurance but of strategy and tactics to break (or hold) that tie.

Those of us who are dyed-in-the-wool fans were outraged in 2002 when the All-Star Game (National League vs. American League) was declared to be a tie in the 11th inning, when both teams ran out of all-star pitchers. In a "normal" game they would have had to keep playing anyway, but the team managers and the baseball commissioner didn't want to physically strain the players. Bah!

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 12:10 PM

A game that many people (myself included) feel was the greatest game ever played, the NY Mets defeated the Houston Astros in 16 innings in the 1986 NL playoffs.

That game nearly shut down NYC. I was working in Manhattan at the time, and people were glued to their TV sets while this game was going on.   When the game finally ended, the rush hour began - after 7pm! It was an amazing sight to see.1986 NLCS Game 6

The extra innings has the potential to add drama that can't be described. Sharon A nailed it - it becomes a test of endurance and stategy.

Let's Go Mets!

Subject: RE: BS: Draws/Ties in US
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

Ties (draws) are common enough in the North American sport of hockey; of course, the game is really native to Canada, but the top professional league has more teams in the US than in Canada (although the players include far more "foreigners" ~ Canucks as well as Europeans ~ than US citizens).

American football used to allow ties, but early on, the professional ranks introduced "sudden-death" overtime (first in championship-finals games only, then in all regular season games).

Much more recently, the college game has introduced a rather cumbersome tie-breaking overtime procedure, which I don't like at all, something not unlike the highly unsatisfying penalty-kick "shootout" seen in World Cup soccer. I'd be glad if tie games were still allowed; one of the most memorable college games ever played was a 10-10 between Notre Dame and Michigan State early in the 1966 season. Irish coach Ara Parseghian was widely criticized for playing to preserve the tie late in the game, rather than to take risks in trying to win; he was proven right when his team won the opinion poll that determines the mythical National Championship, even though both ND and MSU had gone on to finish the season undefeated.

Rules for high-school football vary from state to state; some states may still allow for tie games while others may not ~ I don't really know.

Baseball, by its very nature, seems to demand a definite outcome. What most casual observers don't understand about baseball is the manner in which it functions as drama. To appreciate the game, you have to understand that it's not so much about what happens on the field as it is about the anticipation of what might happen, on each and every pitch. Most of the time, nothing happens, but when it does, well, anything can happen. (Case in point: Mets catcher Paul LoDuca tagging out two Dodger runners at the plate on a single play in yesterday's playoff game.)

Part of what the true baseball fan appreciates is a game where neither team deserved to have lost but ~ just as in Greek tragedy ~ one of them winds up with the short end of the stick, no matter how undeservedly. I think that's part of the mystique of the "underdog," which is such a big part of baseball culture.