Learning bass guitar

Subject: Learning bass guitar
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:01 PM

Has anybody come across publications or general advice on learning or playing bass guitar for traditional dance tunes?

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:56 PM

I haven't seen any publications, but I may be able to offer some advice.

For a start with traditional dance music you'll only need a limited number of keys (mainly G and D). Of course this depends on the band - with brass it might be Bb and F. So make sure you know where the notes in those keys are on the bass. Bass work in this kind of music tends to underpin the chord structure, and you can use little runs to link the chord root notes together.

I would also advise playing down the low end of the fretboard. Playing halfway up loses some of the notes among the other instruments. And sometimes what you don't play is as important as what you do play. You don't have to play a note on every beat. To do this you have to stop the last note you played from sounding, otherwise there no space!

I never use a plectrum or a thumb on the bass as I can get a much better sound from fingers, varying the sound with different actions. And you you can get more interesting effects using two or even three fingers.

You have to know the tunes pretty well. Good bass work isn't just joining up the chord structure. You can play snatches of a bass harmony at appropriate places in the tune. This adds a bit of variety and it also keeps you interested and makes the tune more interesting.

It's very important to have a good steady sense of timing. Dancers dance to the beat rather than to the tune. So watch the dancers!

Possibly the best advice is to listen to what others are doing. Major influences for me were Ashley Hutchings on the 'Morris On' albums, Dave Pegg and Rick Kemp. But eventually you'll develop your own style. I used to play quite a bit in sessions, and it can be a bit scary carting a bass guitar in, especially if the other players don't know you. In those days I had a solid bass and a battery amp. But the more you play, the better you get. Playing along with CDs is also very useful.

Finally, ask advice from the other band members, session players or wherever you're playing. But the final decision on how you play is your own.

Most of all, enjoy it!
Les

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:09 PM

Have you checked homespuntapes.com ?

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:29 PM

Bass is not really a "traditional" instrument, so the parts tend to be played the same as they would for popular and classical music--oddly enough, bluegrass style bass, at least the basics, would be as useful as anything else. And, especially in your case, the basics are more important than any of te advanced stuff. "Mel Bay's Learn to Play Bluegrass Bass"--is a good, and cheap place to start.

My advice, having played extensively for both social/traditional dancing, and for performing groups, is that, no matter what else is going on, the dancers follow the bass--never mind that the parts are simple, the bass player must know the material exactly, and play precisely--fudged notes and dropped beats which would go unnoticed in other circumstances will confound dancers--

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:30 PM

General advice: Learn to play the guitar first! (I'm serious)

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 05:41 PM

Incidentally, bass is a very different instrument from guitar, even though it seems to be set up in much the same way, and the bass player must develop a different sort of world view--that said, knowing guitar helps a lot--

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:26 AM

Thanks a lot, much good advice, as ever.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: oggie
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:29 AM

Following on from the above - always practice with a metronome or drum track. It is also worth recording yourself sometimes so you can hear exactly what you played!

All the best

oggie

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Grab
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:32 PM

Unless you want to sound *incredibly* cheesy, avoid the old I,V,I,V sequence (eg. if playing in A, picking "A - E - A - E" - or even worse, "A - E - A E F# G#"). The Postman Pat theme is the only tune for which this sequence is acceptable and you can get away with it by saying you're doing it for irony value.

You won't go too far wrong by starting just playing the tonic note for each chord on the beat (or every other beat, or every bar, depending on tune and speed). Don't bother with anything else until you can do that reliably.

Halfway up the fretboard on the E and A strings is actually a good place to be. But halfway up on the G and D strings starts to fight with the guitar for space, and in fact the D string generally can start getting into the guitar's space, so know what you're doing if you're up there. Those higher notes are *much* more prominent too, so if you're unsure then stick to plunking away on lower notes and turn any glitches into "passing notes". ;-)

Playing chords and other multi-note playing (thumb and fingers, etc.) *is* practical on basses, but whether it sounds good or not is 100% down to the instrument. If your instrument can't do it and sound good, forget about it.

Graham.

PS. Tried a *beautiful* Dean bass at the weekend. £750 unfortunately, so had to put it back on the rack! :-(

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:39 PM

Thanks Oggie and thanks Graham, just need to find some sympathetic tune players now

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:47 PM

With due respect, Graham is off on the 1-V business--it was good enough for Mozart--you can move to the fifth above the tonic for a less rolypoly sound, though. Also, with bass, learn to play using open notes where possible--it really sounds much better.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:58 PM

Are you talking dynamics or harmony, Graham?

People overdoing it on the playing as they venture up the neck?

Too much playing or too much noise?

If I have a folk bass player I love (if there really is such a beast) it would be Dave Pegg because he plays bass as an instrument that is part of the group of players rather than plunking notes at the bottom.

If we ever come across each other in a session - give me the nod and I'll stop playing music and start playing root notes for you and the rest of the players can make the music move. :)

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:17 PM

early 80's..

I used to know the ex-wife of the bass player on "Postman Pat"

I had a go on his basses..

a nice pair of top expensive Kramer aluminium neck instruments..

he also toured in Sir Cliff's band..



Postman Pat bassline might be easy and cheasey..

but it took tears of practice & experience and a few grands worth of bass gear
to get it down on tape !

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:28 PM

Hi,

I play bass and guitar in various bands.

For most dance/traditional music I'd play the root on the beat and the fifth on the third beat (in 4/4 common time). You can play the same pattern in 3/4 time if it's a slow song.

Playing the root and fith is easy (maybe cheesy). Most bluegrass bass players do this as it is the style. It helps keep the rhythm. Just nail (accent) the first beat on the root. Playing just the root is acceptible for a beginner.

The bass player and mandolin player are the rhythm section in many acoustic groups.

To get started you need a chart of the notes on the bass and the chords for the song. You need to know the time signature 4/4 or 3/4 are the main ones.

Since I'm a teacher I'd recommend a teacher to prevent any bad habits esp if you play with your fingers (rt. hand).

Good luck,

Richie

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:56 AM

Thanks again, again, I think I have an idea of what to do.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: GUEST,Hitchin John
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 05:37 AM

Hi

Just wanted to make the point that, unless you are playing double bass or have an unusally effective acoustic bass, amplification is the most important part.

A really good quality solid electric bass through a guitar practice amp will sound worse than a squier precision through a proper bass amp.

Indeed if you have the right amp it is easier to get the right sound and then you clash much less with the rest of the band even half way up the neck.

Bear in mind that a solid electric bass is almost inaudible next to any acoustic instruments. However also bear in mind that if you over amplify and play loudly you will clash with everything and stand out greatly(especially any mistakes). Bass can be put through a PA but the owner must be aware of the additional stress that bass can add and also remember you need to hear yourself clearly (more clearly than the audience/dancers) to play.

I like to have the amp fairly loud and then play softly with the ball of my thumb (too long a guitarist). This gives me a good deal of control of dynamics and to me a nice rich round tone.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:00 AM

Old Wolfie I'm-a-diety never got his hands on an electric bass though, did he...? ;-)

OK, it's not a hard-and-fast rule. But because it's so cheesy, you need a reason for doing it, or something that makes it different.

Nick, as you say, it's overdoing it which is the killer. A good bass riff is a damn sight more important than a good guitar riff in making a song work. But I know when I started playing bass (from a basis in guitar), I had to learn to *anchor* myself to the beat with the tonic note before I got back out playing riffs. Basically I had to unlearn the standard guitar thing of adding fills and variation whenever you feel like, and until I'd forced myself to *stop* playing fills everywhere, I was pretty bloody hopeless. I guess the bass is closer to percussion in that sense - fills for emphasis (ends of bars/phrases) is good, but not having a solid base under those fills just turns into a random mess. And for venturing up the neck, you need to know what everyone else is doing so you're not treading on other people's toes, because you're then getting into "harmony" territory instead of just "rhythm".

Graham.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: oggie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:30 PM

This thread encouraged me to get my bass out again - BIG mistake, it's the only amplified instrument I play and I enjoyed rediscovering the bass line to 'All Right Now' but I don't know if the neighbours did!.

For me there are three modes of bass playing, the steady anchor role well covered here, melody (but you need a responsive bass and amp or it sounds a mess) and lastly.........

Not all bass players are staid conservatives, some of us are are extroverts to whom a Bass is even better than a lead guitar, be warned, this way lies madness, feedback and Bass Acquisition Syndrome. But it's fun and some of the techniques can be used in a folk/rock/dance setting.

To see what I mean try getting hold of some of the following:-

    Steve Bailey/Victor Wooten - Bass Extremes Live

    Stu Hamm - any of his instruction DVDs or 'Radio Free Albemuth'(CD)

    John Patitucci - A Dictionary of Grooves and Techniques (some really good left hand exercises)

    Jaco Pastorius - Modern Electric Bass (I know he's a jazz player and it's getting dated but it's still useful)

    Billy Sheehan - Lots of video around both instructional, rock and with his jazz combo, Niacin.

This little show what's possible on a bass but they still base it around a solid technique and a knowledge of music. Sheehan also suggests that bassists should be able to play another instrument to give a better insight into the music played.

Have fun

oggie

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:15 AM

Will you be playing with or without a drummer? If you are playing with a drummer it is almost certain that you can afford to play in a very economical style which gives the music a nice open feel. You will be able to play a mixture of mainly on the beat or sometimes off beat but resist the temptation to be jazzy by playing slightly in front or behind the beat.

If you are playing without a drummer, the dancers will rely on you to get the pulse for the dance, for all the counting to eight and sixteen that dancers need for their patterns, so keep it simple, resist any urge to go and play wifty wafty melodic stuff, just emphasise the beat and to add some occasional interest find the natural run up or down to the next chord change. The I V stuff can seem cheesy, but use it as part of an arpeggio going I V octave-I and then it seems less so. As has been mentioned, lots of the time will be spent playing in the keys of D and G so get cracking on those scales to find some alternatives to just playing I V. Persude some of the other musicians (especially on guitar, accordeon/melodeon) to put in some relative minor chords or some flattened sevenths to spice up the accompaniment. There are some tunes (eg Winster Gallop) where it is fun for the whole band to start playing in a minor key - instant Klezma!

I would suggest not playing open notes. The reason for this is that as you play a note, you can lift your finger slightly from the finger board thereby muting or damping the note. This gives a nice precise sound to replace the missing drumbeat and it is this kind of precise sound that dancers need for ceilidh dancing.

Fingers or plectrum? Although I use a plectrum for playing guitar and bouzouki but I've never felt comfortable using one for bass where I use my index and middle fingers, mainly alternating, but I suggest you use what feels comfortable. Tone will be important too. Avoid using a very deep or muddy sound, try to achieve a balanced sound, one that still has some warmth but still with a bit of edge, otherwise the definition for the beat will disappear and that means curtains for the dancers and also as others have said, don't stray into the octaves where you are competing with the other instruments.

Finally, get out and see some other ceilidh bands and try to analyse what the rhythm section is doing, what makes it good or bad and then apply that to your own playing. If you go to the Webfeet you can then check out some samples of other ceilidh bands, again to try and analyse what the bass player is doing.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:54 AM

Thanks,

I have copied all you advice into a word document and it makes quite a collection of coherent sense. Solid rhythm, start simple, listen to other people and as many of you rightly said enjoy!

I have an accoustic bass, not a great instrument but very sociable and easy to pick up and play. I have some tune books and CDs of English and Irish session tunes and I am playing along with them mostly plaing root and odd V, great fun.

I have been listening to variuos Ashley Hutchings Bands and he is a bit good. It is good to hear that uncomplicated bass as someone put it "anchoring the beat". Last night I played Rainbow Chasers and I guess the difference is they are clearly a ballad group and Ashley uses the bass in a more melodic way.

Or is it just a bit over done?

Thanks again
Les

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:53 PM

One last thought, get a bass player, or a string teacher, to show you the proper technique for plucking the strings.that will make all the difference in the way that you sound--

Subject: RE: Learning bass guitar
From: oggie
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:06 PM

Have a look at this site. I've just found it and I'm using it a lot to bring my bass playing back up to speed and to sort out my theory and scales etc.

http://activebass.com/

Lot of walking bass stuff inthe lessons which transfer easily to folk music.

All the best

Steve Ogden