BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

See the BNP call them hero's for removing catholics from Ulster soil on their White Loyalist site. Think this says it all. Poor timing this week to hand them a medal considering what they did and did so often.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 12:11 PM

You can see why the conflict went on and on and on and on. And some still need the gap filled in their life it seems.

Not every IRA member was a cold blooded child murderer.But some were. Should we judge them as a whole on the actions of a few that had lead instead of hearts?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 10:43 AM

Agreed Les. Just hard to watch it on tv and recall the murder, yes they had losses and the CGC won't bring back their dead, but to watch them receiving the honour was a hell of a slap in the mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 10:38 AM

I'm sorry for your loss, Divis, but the main effort in healing the wounds caused by various conflicts around the world, particularily those with ethnic roots, should be directed towards forgiving and forgetting. An inability to forgive and forget tends to extend this type of conflict.It we want peace we have to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 10:25 AM

I agree Keith that it's good that things are changing for the better.

To honour the regiment and say there was the "odd bad apple" as they did in not good enough. Not every member of the PIRA killed people, yet many would say, well as part of this group you have blood on your hands. Yesterdays honour was a clear slap on the face to nationalists. There is a big push going on here at the moment to get nationalists to support policing.It seems to be taking shape until it was annouced that they were appointing a former UDR Commander David Strudley, sadly remembered by nationalists for all the wrong reasons, to the head up training within the PSNI.

The Human Rights Commission have criticised the current PSNI training regime. The appointment of former UDR commander David Strudley will hardly inspire confidence within the broad nationalist community in particular that these inadequacies are going to be dealt with.

The UDR/RIR was little more than a unionist militia with a long history of involvement in collusion with unionist paramilitaries and indeed directly in the deaths of nationalists and republicans, including public representatives.

I myself would like to see an acceptable policing service which can enjoy the support of the community it serves. Involving an individual with a UDR past in such a senior position sends out entirely the wrong signal.

I lost family to a UDR gun attack. Serving members were found guilty and jailed. The judge at the trial said this mans only crime was being a catholic who stood waiting on a lift to his work at the same time every morning, police said he had no interest in politics. As the killers left the court laughing, they shouted "Up the UDR and UVF".

Sit and watch that and tell me they reserved a CMC. I repeat they were a paid LEGAL force and this was not an isolated case.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:51 AM

Here we go, It's always those that know least about a subject that engages their mouth first.IRA murdered thousands ?

Hello, the topic of this thread is about the Queen presenting an award to the UDR/RIR who were a LEGAL security force who murdered people on and off duty.

Sorry no medals were awarded to the volunteers during the campaign. The last time medals wee awarded to volunteers was by the Irish government to those that fought in the War of Independence in the twenties, this happened in 1941. One would have thought an academic such as yourself would have known that.

Still waiting on your answer, was it good enough for the paddies ?

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:50 AM

And the IRA who murdered thousands is blameless? I'm sure the guy who planted the bomb on Mountbattens boat got the IRA equivalent of the VC for his brave effort.

Saying "they were as bad" or whatever in no way justifies us honouring this regiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:46 AM

They were being disbanded because they are no longer needed.
That is good.
For many years they were essential to sustain the rule of law.
Civil police could not.
No doubt some of them sometimes did bad things.
No doubt, most did not.
They all knowingly placed themselves in danger of violent death.
274 UDR men died a violent death, mostly off duty and in their own homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM

I would direct you to a Guests comment: Guess someone thought the 85-95% not guilty of collusion deserved recognition.

And the IRA who murdered thousands is blameless? I'm sure the guy who planted the bomb on Mountbattens boat got the IRA equivalent of the VC for his brave effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:26 AM

Sorry Jon, my reply was not aimed you, it was for the remark made by that thing, about disbandment.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:19 AM

Me Divis, for quoting what the queen said? That was in response to Dave Tam's comments. I wouldn't be saying what you are suggesting. I think it is a disgrace "we" are honouring the regiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM

Dave

When I was college student, aeons ago, the student body got very worked up about a visit to Ireland of a South African sporting team. Pickets were organised, motions proposed at debating societies etc. etc. Then some one stood up and laconically remarked - "But it's a BOXING team, for God's sake! I thought the whole point was to beat the shite out of them!".

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 09:09 AM

Hi Dave the gnome all well I hope. It is an organisation marred by controversy and the clear evidence that members of the UDR/RIR were involved in the killing of many Catholics.

"UDR involvement in the murder of many nationalists has been acknowledged by the British government as has its role as the source for much of the weapons used by loyalist death squads."

As to that remark from that person above, she also delivered a CGC for the good work they did. Come out and say it, "They were good enough for the Paddies" don't bite your lip on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:58 AM

War is war. Tit for tat.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM

The Queen said the regiment "had never flinched despite suffering extreme personal intimidation".

"Today you have cause to reflect on the fine achievements,

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:53 AM

The parade at the Balmoral Showgrounds was held to mark the DISBANDMENT of the regiment's three home service battalions.

Something wrong with this? Get a Life!

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:23 AM

Who advises Lizzy, surely not Blair,this bigoted outfit has been involved in secterian crime from its incepition, after all Blair is trying to broker a peace agreement between Paisley`s DUP and Adams Sinn Fein, this certainly dosen`t help matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 08:02 AM

Read the story here.

Absolutely ridiculous. To honour this regiment within days of the confirmation that the PIRA have stopped all violence is insensitive at best and blatantly confrontational at worse. Are the government, via the monarchy, trying to see if they can wind up the nationalist parties back into violence or what?

There is very little makes me ashamed to be English but acts like these make me realise what a set of pillocks are in the driving seat. At least I can take comfort from knowing I had nothing to do with putting that inbred set of spongers into Buck house and neither did I vote for the present meglomaniacs in Westminster.

Apologies to all my Irish friends from one Englishman at least.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:55 AM

Guess someone thought the 85-95% not guilty of collusion deserved recognition.

Subject: BS: Queen honours regiments of shame.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 07:34 AM

Yesterday Queen Elizabth honoured the Royal Irish Regiment and the Ulster Defence Regiment. Two regiments with a shameful record of murder and violence. The British government was aware of large-scale collusion between security forces and loyalist paramilitaries from as early as 1973, according documents released recently under the thirty year rule.

The files show Downing Street knew that significant numbers of soldiers in the UDR/RIR were linked to loyalist paramilitaries, but failed to act.

The collusion file contains a detailed report on Subversion in the UDR/RIR including estimates of the numbers of soldiers linked to loyalists - while intelligence documents show how more than 200 British army rifles and sub machine guns were passed to loyalists.

This is not the first time evidence has emerged to show UDR/RIR collusion, but also that government was aware of it from early in the Troubles.

The documents reveal that military intelligence estimated 5-15 per cent of UDR soldiers were linked to loyalist paramilitaries and also thet believed that the best single source of weapons, and the only significant source of modern weapons, for Protestant extremist groups was the UDR/RIR.

UDR/RIR troops were loyal to 쳌Ulster rather than Her Majesty's Government.The government knew that UDR weapons were being used in the murder and attempted murder of Catholics. Against this background it is significant that as the Troubles unfolded, the government went on to increase, rather than decrease, the regiment's role in areas of high tension in Northern Ireland.

Government files show that UDR/RIR members took part in the Miami showband massacre, and were linked to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings that killed 33 people and over one hundred murders and attempted murders of catholics.

The UDR - or Ulster Defence Regiment - was formed in 1970 to replace the disgraced B Specials police reserve, but nationalists came to see it as a carbon copy. They were disbanded in 1992, and replaced by name only as the RIR, a regimental title from a disbanded regiment from 1922.

The regiment, which was the largest in the British army, became almost 100 per cent Protestant.

The government documents concentrate on the UDR/RIR, they also include files that show senior political figures making disturbing references to wrong-doing within the ranks of the RUC.


Unionists blamed UDR wrongdoing on a few "bad apples" but that argument withered in the face of a catalogue of sectarian incidents including murder. Complete figures for criminal activity by UDR members were never disclosed but by 1991 it was admitted that 27 were convicted for murder.A lot of UDR/RIR soldiers who were members of loyalist paramilitaries simply left the regiment before appearing in court, while collusion with loyalists accounted for an unknown number of illegal acts.

John Stevens, who later headed the Metropolitan Police, launched three inquiries into security force collusion with loyalists, he was shocked at his findings.

As with the Stalker/Sampson inquiries investigating the RUC in the 1980s, his findings were not made public. Ten members of the UDR/RIR were charged as a result of the probe, while the regiments came in for serious criticism in his report.


The army said the RIR was 98 per cent Protestant but 30 per cent of the Royal Irish Rangers were Catholic, many drawn from the Republic. Four months later, however, it admitted that it had made an error, confirming that only four per cent of the Royal Irish Rangers were Catholic.