BS: The Curse of Cromwell

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:36 PM

Mornington Crescent....!

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:56 AM

Are personal attacks OK now?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:29 PM

Sadly Freda, thats just the way he is, it seems.

It might have been moderately funny if he hadnt meant it nastily.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

ard mhacha "You do slobber on/ have you a problem or did a dog piss in your eye, careful where they set you down in the garden."

why speak like that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:43 PM

No sensible answer then Ard? Typical. No wonder my Dad said never argue with an Irishman.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM

Are you still rattling on DTG, have you a problem or did a dog piss in your eye, careful where they set you down in the garden.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

the Poles I speak to are either lying or those figures are rather haphazard, I know who I believe.

I wonder where I have heard that before? In another thread did I not suggest that people who are actualy there know more than reported figures? And did you not dismiss that idea? What it boils down to is that anything I say is a lie? Is that because I am half English or because I am half Polish? Which half of me is the most trustworthy do you think?

Incidentaly figures of anything between 55% and 86% are still a far cry from "religion in his native country would not exist except for the elderly`s attendance at Mass." And the 55% - 86% attendance includes only those of the Roman Catholic faith. When you add Orthodox, Moslem and all the other faiths the figures increase significantly. All you have to decide is if I am speaking as a Bastard Brit or a trustworthy Pole.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:29 AM

It's decidedly worrying, Paul. Maybe it's why lots of the young are leaving? To understand the Polish people and culture would take a lifetime of study to an outsider. Historicaly the country has seen more flux than any other European country I think. It has in it's history been changed, re-shaped and occupied by more outsiders than anywhere else. There has been times in it's history where little has existed at all apart from a small area around Warsaw. Where else in the last 60 years has been an independant nation, occupied and ruled by Nazi Germany, all but ruled by Soviet Russia, been goverened by a Trade Union and produced a Catholic pope?

I suspect that the nationalism there is direct backlash to those years of being governed by extreme factions. Much the same as the nationalist reactions in both East Germany and Cossack Ukraine. The religious side of it is, in my opinion, part of that nationalism due to the countries undoubted religious ties. As Ard Mhacha is now saying it is the young people leaving Poland that want to have little to do with that religion. Understandably so in my view. With reference to this argument the country will be undergoing a political and religious freedom they have not seen for many years. Possibly much akin to England (and Ireland of course) emerging out of the 'Curse of Cromwell'.

Little aside - My Grandparents, as I said, left Byelostok (or Bialystok to give it the more suitable Polish spelling) at the tail end of WW11. They lived near the Jewish Ghetto which all but wiped out the Jewish population of that town. They both literaly risked life and limb to smuggle books and possesions out of the Ghetto for safekeeping and to pass to the surviving relatives. I never found out what became of the stuff! Interestingly enough Bialystok now has a very high proportion of Moslems in place of the Jews. Remember Cheetham Hill from your days round here? It is pretty much the same there but for much different reasons of course!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:28 AM

SORRY TYPING SLIP, todays figures would be under 50*, I see in Google one figure for Poland`s attendances as 86%, while another gives 55*, less than a third attend church in Poland, the Poles I speak to are either lying or those figures are rather haphazard, I know who I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

DTG, You do slobber on, if you care to read my posts further up this Thread you will see that I stated that the attendances in Ireland had declined, given as 60^ in 1998

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:32 AM

Maybe the Polish experts would llike to comment on this interview given recently by a Polish deputy education minister? Or this survey of Polish racist groups, some of which are included in the governing coalition at national or local level?

But the real point was my comparison of Poland today with Ireland of the 50s/60s. The Catholic church entrenched as a conservative political power-behind-the-scenes; the widespread support, and also widespread resentment; the restrictive social legislation; the appeals to nationalism. And, to fetch us back to the topic, the comparison between the sufferings of Ireland due to British imperialism comares with the Polish nationalism engendered by Russian and German states grasping at the country. In both cases, a repressive religious view and a n often kneejerk nationalism are the result.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:26 AM

Agreed Ard - Why did you not just say that in the first place? Most young people will say that they are devoid of religion. It is of no interest to them. This still does not detract from the fact that 90% of Poles class themselves as Catholic and 75% are practicing. Don't believe me? Check out -

Encyclopedia Brittanica

If that is too British try

The CIA world fact book

And if all else fails try

The Polish government site

Now I am sure you must agree that your original statement religion in his native country would not exist except for the elderly`s attendance at Mass is a far cry from the more recent Along with the majority of our youth they are completely devoid of any religion. I do know a lot about Poland, it's history and it's culture and the former statement is, quite simply, wrong. I am more than happy to accept the latter as agreement that your original may not be completely true.

I do apologise unreservedly for my previous uncalled for sarcastic comments. Maybe if there were more people like yourself, willing to talk to recent immigrants and understand them, we would not see the awful incidence of race hate in both our countries.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:35 AM

You can be sure I had more than one opinion from the many Poles living in my district, I am very interested to try and learn as much as possible from my migrant friends, apart from religion I am interested in all aspects of life in their country Sport, Customs etc, the younger Poles have a good knowledge of English and I enjoy talking to them.
Along with the majority of our youth they are completely devoid of any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:26 AM

Oh - BTW - I am at my PC a lot because it is how I make my living. A very good one at that. Leaves me lots of time and money spare to do pleasant things. Which is probably why I will never be as bitter, twisted and firmly rooted in past hatreds as some on this site.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:22 AM

Typical Ard Mhacha response. Lets review it shall we...

Would rather rely on the word of a neighbour who has left his own country than that of people still living there. Would rather believe the word of an individual than that of countless reliable sources who insist that the religion of Poland is 90% Catholic with 75% being practicing. When faced with irrefutable proof that he is talking though his arse he would rather make comments about people getting a life. Prefers to make any points that are anti-British rather than face up to the fact that he may just be wrong about something.

OK - If it's that important to you then so be it. You are right. The rest of the world is wrong. Arguing with you is completely pointless. I will leave it to other people to decide who is more need of living in the real world.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

My Polish neighbor is a foreman in a local factory which has a large Polish work force, he frequently returns to Poland to recruit workers.
I can surely rely on his word regarding Catholicism in his own country, or the lack of it.
Unlike Gnomes I do have a life besides being constantly tied to my PC, try it sometimes but be careful on your streets.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM

DtG do you have a recipe for Bagels?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

2 months late with a response, Ard Mhacha? Not like you! I guess that living in the racist centre of Europe, with more race hate, particularly against east Europeans, than anywhere else does qualify you to comment on affairs in Poland doesn't it.

I on the other hand can say nothing. After all my Father is only Polish. I have cousins in Byelostock, Gdansk and Gdynia. My grangparents fled from Poland during WW11, not wanting to be oppressed by either the Germans or Russians. Oh - my Grandfather was ordained a Russian Orthodox priest when he came to England so he was not at all religious.

My Great Aunt Olga, who stayed in Poland and died this year at nearly 100 years old, was a regular attender of the local Catholic Church where she met and spoke at leangth to a certain Pope John Paul 11. Now, let me think, where did he come from?

Of course you are right, these are all old people. Just like my cousin Jarek in Gdynia who, in his 20s during the mid 1980s, attended the Catholic Church for his trade union meetings. Solidarity or some such. Nothing ever came of them of course becasue the Church supported them. In such a secular country, which the CIA fact book believes to be nearly 90% Roman Catholic with over 75% practicing, the church does of course mean nothing.

Now, having established that I have no idea what is going on in Poland, apart from regular mail, email and phone calls from relatives who live there - Oh and discusions with the young people who are not related but who I work with and go to the same shops as I go and live in one of the most densely Polish areas of the UK - Let us discuss how you came about your information.

Possibly in a bar where 'What is you religion' is still a very loaded question? Maybe on the streets where your neighbour is quite happy to admit to everyone that he is from eastern Europe? When he 'could have added that a visit from a Cromwell like ogre was not necessary' did he mention that lecturing from clergy was not needed because they have no need to preach to the converted?

I look forward to your comments.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

Paul Burke states that his ethnic Polish friend found a priest dominated society in Poland, mentioning this to my Polish neighbor [also fluent in English] he laughed, before telling me that religion in his native country would not exist except for the elderly`s attendance at Mass.
He was surprised to learn that his country was under the influence of the church, as a native of Posnan he said ne never experienced any such lecturing from the clergy, and he could have also added that a visit from a Cromwell like ogre was not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Shaneo
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

A curse upon you Oliver Cromwell
You who raped our Motherland
I hope you're rotting down in hell
For the horrors that you sent
To our misfortunate forefathers
Whom you robbed of their birthright
"To hell or Connaught" may you burn in hell tonight

[Extract Young Ned Of The Hill,,by Terry Woods of The Pogues]

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:42 PM

A couple years ago I visited the Saugus Iron Works in Massachusetts. It was the first successful such enterprise in North America. Part of the secret of its success was cheap labor in the use of Scot prisoners of war from Puritan England.

Enjoyed the movie Cromwell without being able to critique it. He seems to have had gifts of military organization, religious doctrine, and politics.

Much taken with the English Civil War period, which was far reaching in economics, foreign policy, religion, and politics, and enabled the development of the independent American colonies and probably made the American Revolution possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

Cromwell hated all tyrannies, but his own.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Just refreshing this thread reminds me that the US President Guest historian left out one important fact about the Irish Protestant diaspora in the US, all of them, every danged one of them were ANTI Loyalist Royalist.

All of them were at heart US-Republicans even if they were in the Democratic party.

Happy New Year

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:43 AM

great movie ....make more...*plez*

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM

I agree about the need for evidence to
back assertions.

Perhaps someone could say why historians,
who have to provide evidence, nevertheless
disagree.

We then have the spectacle of conservative
historians,liberal historians etc.etc.

Shurely shome mishtake.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

OLIVER CROMWELL LAY BURIED AND DEAD
(Trad)


Oliver Cromwell lay buried and dead,
Hee-haw, buried and dead,
There grew an old apple-tree over his head,
Hee-haw, over his head.

The apples were ripe and ready to fall,
Hee-haw, ready to fall,
There came an old woman to gather them all,
Hee-haw, gather them all.

Oliver rose and gave her a drop,
Hee-haw, gave her a drop,
Which made the old woman go hippety hop,
Hee-haw, hippety hop.

The saddle and bridle, they lie on the shelf,
Hee-haw, lie on the shelf,
If you want any more your can sing it yourself,
Hee-haw, sing it yourself.


CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: harpmaker
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM

Three cheers for Oliver!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 01:57 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST,UsAntiBritishSpies
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 01:56 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 10:18 PM

Dear Guest, not every American is that well versed in who they are related to, and most would rather not go there.

Relations like fish, after a few days begin to pong and all that good old fashioned common sense.

But I am certain that many of the descendents of early Republican America would find some connection, however slender, to the *I*r*i*s*h* province of Ulster.

Isn't it a pity that the Scottish people, in all the places where they eneded up as well as at home, don't make more of their ancient Irish roots too?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

100
Zounds !!

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:17 AM

Three more foreign nationals were burned out of their home in a petrol bomb attack in Ballymena in County Antrim.

Three devices were thrown through a window of a house at Moat Road at 11.00pm on Monday night. It was the 11th attack on the homes of migrant workers in Ballymena in the past two months.

All attacks took place in loyalist areas and are clearly racially motivated.

The DUP spokesman for the area said "I think they are fighting among themselves" he added, now that's hearsay, but I believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:45 AM

From my (ethnic Polish and fluent in the language) friend's recent visit to Poland, I gather that the atmosphere there is quite religiously oppressive, much like Ireland in the 50s/60s. I suspect that many of the migrants are young people all to glad to get away from it.

On the other hand, if it becomes a nationalist and communalist issue, as it did in Ireland in the late 19th/ early 20th century, religion becomes more entrenched. No surprise, we are seeing a similar phenomenon with Islam in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:31 AM

Sorry for the Thread drift, but the number of migrants may surprise any Irish person abroad who isn`t aware of the vast changes here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:28 AM

Nickhere, Not quite but getting close, every other person in our town is an eastern European, to confirm what I was already seeing I asked our sexton about the numbers from our ethnic groups who were attending Mass, he was amazed at the suggestion that there were numerous, he told me what I already knew that like our youngsters the young migrants never bothered with religion, that is fact.

He told me that they had a special Mass a few weeks before Christmas last year and the leaflets advertising this included five different languages,Polish Lithunian German Spanish and Portuguese, the response was very diaappointing, believe me as I said before all of our towns in Ireland are far higher in ethnic groups that the Government figures show, yes the experience is much different in the this particular northern town and it is not for the want of trying.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:38 PM

Ard macha- you asked about the Poles and Czechs etc., at mass. Well, my figures - though I didn't specify any actual numbers - comes from actually seeing them at mass on Sundays, and often on other days of the week as well. That is, in the first person. How do I know they are Polish? Some of them I recognise - they are friends of mine, or students I know. Others I recognise from their accents. I don't speak Polish or Czech, but I can fairly easily recognise some key words and the accents, as I teach Polish and other Eastern European nationals for a living. Indeed, in my town (in the South) there are even Polish-language masses to cater for the needs of the large Polish community here. On weekdays especially there are often as many eastern Europeans as Irish in the church. I don't have exact figures, but as you can see, my own personal experience leads me to conclude that mass attendance is slightly on the up from its previous low, thanks to immigration. Of course, the experience might be different around the country.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Fiolar
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 08:12 AM

I found out when I checked "Familysearch.org" that all Cromwell's ancestors were Welsh.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 02:39 AM

Nickhere, I would be very interested to know were your figures come from giving the Czech, Poles and other emigrants figures for Sunday Mass attendance. In the large northern town where I live those figures don`t bear out in our two churches.
Of the large Polish migrant population here their attendance at Mass is scant, and I can tell you the figures given for the numbers of eastern Europeans here in the north, is well below the Governments estimate, so not to stray too far from the theme of the Thread, Cromwell can rest easy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:54 AM

Yes, interesting...thanks

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

As always Nickhere, a post well worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

"They know by the low attendance figures at Mass, it has reached the stage were vocations to the priesthood are at their lowest ebb, also Convents are pratically devoid of young nuns, it is not rocket science, living here you see for yourself.
So it wouldn`t do any harm to enquire before you comment on priest-ridden Ireland"

I agree. Ireland is not 'priest-ridden' indeed. I'd like to add some observations:

The media pundits have long been gleefully prophesying / describing the decline in Catholic Ireland and not always in the role of disinterested observers. Immigration, they opined, would change Catholic Ireland forever and make it into something far more palatable (to them). Well here's the funny thing: some traditional expressions of catholicism HAVE died off, people no longer really go to Sunday mass out of sheer habit or because the neighbours do (very few, anyway). The numbers of Irish in churches has fallen, but at least those who are there sincerely want to be, and you get a bit less of the rent-a-crowd who arrive at the back of the church to chat about 'the match' while the rest of us are trying to listen to the mass, then head off out the door before the communion, like guests who bizarrely leave your house just after you've laid up the table! As for immigration, stick your head into any of the churches near the bigger towns and you'll find them full of...Polish, Czech etc., Maybe the pundits will be proved wrong - maybe immigration will revitalise the church here.

The Church in Ireland had to change - the dead wood cleared out. It suffered from the failing of all big institutions: sooner or later they develop an 'us and them' mentality. We've seen that recently also with the Gardai (e.g Donegal) to mention but one example. But the church is far more than just the clergy - as the media pundits often forget - it is also the laity. I don't approve of the violent, abusing clergy of course, and I am not trying to defend them. They had to go too. But remember that 1) many people's parents back in the 50s and 60s and 70s were quite violent too. Thankfully my own weren't, but I know families where the parents were physically abusive. It was also partly the society of the time - no one thought it amiss if parents or teachers landed a few clouts, and priests were part of that system (true, some were way over the top). We tend to judge them with hindsight, which is our perogative, but no doubt future generations will judge us with hindsight in ways we can't imagine now. At the time in Ireland, career choices were often limited to low-income or low-income rural families: inherit the farm, join the police /army, become a priest or emigrate. Thus the church attracted many who had no real vocation or interest in being in it other than as a source of income / employment and perhaps the social status it brought. Thankfully this has changed and I believe a far higher, more dedicated calibre of person is applying to the priesthood these days.

I agree with Divis - the church in Ireland was essentially up to its neck in politics here. (Incidentally, the Church of Ireland was too, as the religion of the ascendancy class). Ever since Maynooth and the easing of the Penal laws, it became a bit of a stooge of the Establishment as long as its own freedoms were not interfered with. It obtained a degree of freedom in the running of its own affairs here but the payoff was that it reigned in the Irish Catholics on behalf of the Brit Establishment. It vigourously opposed republicans because they were inspired by some of the republican ideals of the French Revolution (which also regarded the church as a stooge of the aristocracy, the 'second estate'). Ironically in Ireland many republicans were devout catholics with deep faith. They simply did not accept the church's right to make political pronouncements on behalf of the British government (e.g Bishop Coughalan in Cork, 1920). When they were excommunicated for being members of the IRA they simply went to mass in the next parish where they weren't recognised. Unionists have often charged that republicanism is the twin sister of catholicism in Eire but this only illustrates their ignorance (and I use the word in the kindest sense) of republicanism. In fact republicans, through their ignoring of the excommunication edicts, were the first catholics to seriously challenge the power of the catholic church here. Note, they didn't reject their faith, or God, simply the Church's political posturing. There is a good scene in The Wind That Shakes the Barley that illustrates this idea well. It has also been described by Joe McVeigh in his book "A Wounded Church" (published around 1984, I think).

Cromwell. There, and with that last word, I managed to just ever so slightly stay within the topic of the thread! ;-}

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 10:20 AM

Thats an interesting & astute assessment of Thatcher (& Cromwell) WLD.

I think it maybe applies to some of the Guests on this & the Mau-Mau thread too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:03 AM

I think Cromwell must have been one of these Margaret Thatcher types - full of moral certainty. Not having any doubts about destroying things which had no place in their scale of values.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:00 AM

It seems like Guest has just awoken from a long Rip van Winkle sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:53 AM

BVM?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:05 AM

Do they still have the huge statues of the BVM oustide every school?

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: John O'L
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:56 AM

Ah, Teribus. Good day to you sir. I was concerned about your absence.
Glad you could show up. Better late than never.
Poor old Cromwell again. How he has suffered at the hands of these wretched historians and Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:36 AM

Cromwell treated what was perceived by the "Parliamentary Cause" as the enemy no differently in England, Scotland or Ireland.

The rather lop-sided belief that the history of the British Isles is coloured by "big-bad" England versus "poor-heroic-victimised" Scotland/Ireland/Wales stems from the fault that it is taken and looked at in isolation. To fully understand the history of the British Isles you must also look at, and study, the history of the two super-powers for much of the time, France and Spain.

No mention of Sir Thomas Wentworth, whose mission to Ireland (1639) at the behest of King Charles to sound out the raising of an Irish Army (predominantly Catholic) under the command of the Duke of Ormond (Protestant) to invade England and impose the King's will on the population.

The Irish were not the only prisoners sent to the Commonwealth as slaves, the same happened to Scots and to English prisoners.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 02:54 AM

Yeh I think there must have been an international ecumenical cross faith decision round about that time to chase the young people out.

I'm not sure it was a purely political thing DS. It was like all the churches looked at society in the 1960's and said - No thankyou! We're not getting involved in any of that.

Whereas, we were the citizens of the world coming into our own time, and we didn't really have any choice - except to engage with the world as it was.

Subject: RE: BS: The Curse of Cromwell
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM

I went to mass in my youth because I was chased out on a Sunday morning, if I hadn't of went I would have lost my bed !

In 1982 there was a statement read out in every chapel issued by the bishop that anyone who supported the Republican movement had no place in their church. I walked out that day and never returned, except for funeral masses for my mother and father. They both were faithful catholics, and neither shared my politics.

The church has a big problem in the north, young people these days won't sit and listen to someone preaching at that. Their weekend social life does not include the church. Most churchgoers I see in my town are of the older generation.

In the republic, there are small towns that have a great respect for their priests. For example on Achill Island in Mayo I was in a shop and the priest came in and it was like a state visit.

I am not here to knock the church, each to their own, it was them that chased me.