Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:59 PM

. - this is a comma

Well, maybe it is in Albania. Physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,King Zog's physician
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:10 PM

'Guest' who still insists on being nameless - '.' is what I typed.

'Queen Zog', so that's where you've been all these years. Well, you would know about 'firing blanks' since you swallowed most of them.

Puck, that would be 'threepence'.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Bashful
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

Grumpy's now in a right huff after being called Shirley. Is the story about the seven dwarves traditional now? Hi ho Hi ho, it's off to work we go, we love to sing traditional songs hi ho ho whistle whistle whistle - oh what a lovely pantomime

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Blowzabella
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:00 PM

Dear: GUEST,The even later King Zog of Albania - PM
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:34 PM

I'm sorry but if you haven't heard of Dick Miles and are not aware of his contribution to the ongoing tradition of folk music in the British Isles your (lack of) roots are showing!

You are insulting a great performer.

Dick has written many songs which are considered to be part of the tradition by many people who sing them, unaware of authorship. His performance style is relaxed but polished and his depth of knowledge enormous. He is also a very nice man.

It was Lancaster's privelige to have him perform for many years - for much less than he was worth.

You are in danger of making a real arse of yourself by not knowing what you profess to talk about!

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:05 PM

I need more popcorn.:',\()*

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,, nameless but not the same one
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:06 PM

> '.' is what I typed. <

',' is on the next row up and a little to the right. You got the apostrophe right though.

Is 'Zog' one of those names like 'Francis' which works for both blokes and bints? Or is 'Queen Zog' analagous to 'Princess Michael of Kent'?

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Blowzabella
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

well bog off and get some then and don't waste time posting here - this is't a popcorn stand

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Princess Michael of Kent
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:40 PM

I greatly resent any analogy being made between the noble House of Battenburg and some mickey mouse Balkan "monarchy". Show some deference, commoners.

PS I picked up a copy of that Musical Traditions magazine in my dentist's waiting room last week. I have to say it was less enjoyable than the subsequent root canal treatment.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Duck of Edinburgh
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:46 PM

Zog wouldn't know the difference between a Battenburg and a Victoria sponge. A traditional kick in the Balkans would sort him out and probably result in something musical.

Quack-a-doodle-do

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:58 PM

I have just finished an evening of music teaching,.
one of my pupils is an all Ireland champion on the harmonica.,
I must say its a pleasure to teach responsive musicians.
Then I spent a pleasant hour reading different articles on mus trad. I particuarly enjoyed the article about Junior Crehan .
ex king Zog, your time would be better used, visiting mustrads very informative site.
   life is short, time is precious, do not waste it.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:42 PM

Without wishing to comment on anyone's typing skills or their behaviour in this forum, I do find some interest in the responses to questions that appear to seek comment on 'definitions' concerning "folk" and "traditional". I've seen several Mudcat threads on such topic and I've seen precious little in them that wasn't aired in debates around the Australian scene 30 years ago.

But I think the context of the debater has a lot of influence on what they accept as 'given' and thus how they construct their participation in the debate. To declare my bias, I am as many generations Australian as you can be without having Aboriginal ancestry (although, 'It's a wise man who knows his own father') and am thus firmly based in a culture dominated by (relatively) recent immigrants. The US and Canada seem to be very similar contexts.

By contrast, in most parts of what might once have been called the British Isles, the current dominant cultural context can be argued to go back a millenium or so. give or take some wrecked Armadas, the end of colonialism in the Caribbean and Pakistan, and participation in the EEC or whatever it's now called. Such depth of dominance of 'local tradition' would be expected to affect residents' views about tradition and change in ways that would be different to those of us described by 'the home country' as 'ex-colonials'.

I'm sure I'm not the first to argue the influence of such different contexts on debate and I doubt I'll be the last. But the positions claimed by debaters at Mudcat seem, to me, to illustrate the point over and over again. Just like most academic discourse.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 03:36 AM

Interesting - since I was roundly condemned by the modernists on my thread about personal tradition (or cultural memory) several other posters have approached the same issue.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 04:15 AM

Here is how I would define traditional music ,.THE CHILD BALLADS, The collections of Cecil Sharp,Baring Gould,Frank Kidson,the Hammond Brothers,The Vaughan Williams memorial library at C SHARP house. The shanties of Stan Hugill. [I am sure mustrad would agree with all so far].Then there are grey areas.Looking at an article In mustrad magazine on Walter Pardon, I noticed two songs in his repertoire, Lord Lovel [generally considered traditional]and The Mistletoe Bough[ Thomas Bayley 1884]A relatively recent composition, a fine song, but not in my opinion traditional., although collected from a traditional singer.
I remember being with John Howson in Suffolk, and one of his singers Charlie Stringer sang the Cheshire Farmers Daughter[traditional]and Carolina Moon[not in my opinion trad].
    What I find slightly illogical,about mustrad magazine, is the exclusion of revival traditional singers like Roy Harris,with a traditional repertoire ,as defined by the early song collectors like Sharp,. And the inclusion of songs like the Mistletoe Bough and other composed peices[ but only if they are collected from traditional singers][[ no composed peices by maccoll ]].
   now I respect Rod Stradling as a fine accordion player,I think mustrad is an interesting magazine, and I understand that their editorial policy is, that articles on the revival singers, can be read about elsewhere[ living Traditions].
   Now that I have explained why I started this thread, perhaps we can have a sensible, amicable, discussion. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 05:03 AM

That's pretty hardcore, Cap'n, but I find it persuasive.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:33 AM

Interesting - I wasn't aware that Rod played the accordion! I look forward to hearing that some time. :-)

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:53 AM

Picture of Rod with piano on his chest.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:58 AM

Wrong Rod Stradling!!!!


He's the one who used to be the efdss treasurer.

OUR Rod Stradling plays the melodeon (sitting down unless playing for Bampton)!

Johnny A

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:03 AM

See the right Rod Strading at fRoots

... picture here with my own dear lady playing hammer dulcimer.

Johnny A

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:09 AM

I had the right one though, John. ex swan band[hope tis is all publicity for your magazine]Dick Miles

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:10 AM

I haven't got a magazine?????

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:29 AM

Mr Adams got in before I could, Richard - DEFINITELY the wrong Rod Stradling in your pikky - My comment was being made tongue in cheek! :-)

Maybe there's another Johnny Adams who HAS got a magazine ? (wish there were smileys with a little wicked devil amongst them, as on fRoots board - I could insert one here!)

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

I thought he looked a bit young, but assumed it was an old photo!

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:44 AM

John adams , I thought you said you had contributed 100o sterling to the formation of mustrads , so thought you were a part owner of mustrads.
if youve got another 1000 sterling you could chuck it my way.
I wish mustrads magazine every success. Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:49 AM

Rod Stradling   [ ex SWAN] playing a piano acCordion. I hope rod stradling [ ex swan] isnt going to start calling Playford, what is the world coming too. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:03 PM

Blimey. Is this still going on...I repeat....Stop it immediately, or I'll have to send a man with a big stick round!
Ralph
PS. Hello John Adams. Nice to see you the other week!

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 01:27 AM

While Captain Birdseye's definition might be acceptable to those who restrict their interest to the northern hemisphere, it says nothing about the southern, even amongst those for whom English (in its accepted variants) is their first language; the other languages, whether indigenous or immigrant, don't get a look in at all.

Without wishing to appear critical of anyone, I'd be interested to see how such a definer would deal with the following questions:

Is Sally Sloane's material not traditional? I think Child was dead before she was born but she was the source (pace other threads) for much material of similar background to the ones mentioned and of much else besides.

Is an Aboriginal stockman of the late C19-early C20, singing material collected by nobody until collectors like Cath Ellis or Ron Edwards happened to have a microphone or notebook handy, not singing traditional material? Is the fact they're singing in English, Kriol or non-Balanda language relevant to the definition?

In what circumstances does their material stop being traditional and become something else?

These are tricky enough to sort through without dealing with notions of revival and any part I and others may have played because of our involvement in and with "traditional" material, however defined, I'd have thought.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:34 AM

good point.Rowan.
In the other thread,[ What is traditional music]. I qualified my remark by saying for a start [which I should have also done here].
I was deliberately trying not to deal with grey areas, but determine a few, that most people are agreed upon,as generally thought of as traditional.
That didnt mean that I thought that no other music, other than that which I had named was traditional.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:17 AM

Plainly each culture will have its own traditions.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: mustradclub
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 08:20 AM

All this correspondence and no one has mentioned the fact that Musical Traditions was originally an occassional and very wonderful magazine edited by my old chum the late Keith Summers. I believe all of the original mag articles including many of the wonderful photo,s are still available via M T either in the archive or on CD Rom. For those of you who did not know the man there is an obit and a page devoted to reminicenses on the M T website. I think its great that Rod has kept the mag going over the website and Fred has done an awful lot of work keeping Keiths wonderful record and cd collection intact.

For anyone with a serious interest in traditional music I honestly think the M T website is invaluable.

Keith's first love was the blues and it was only comparatively late in life that he discovered the traditional music of the British Isles and Ireland he. He admittedly had no great interest in the folk music scene"as such although he was along with Peta Webb and myself the founder member of the Musical Traditions club in London. However neither would Keith be dismissive of the "folk revival" he realised that the revival opened the door to traditional music for many people such as myself.

Ken Hall

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 10:09 AM

well done, keith Summers.musical traditions is very enjoyable and very informative. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

Well done Kenny 'all for reminding us of Keith's initiative in starting the magazine in the first place - something I should have done in the first place.

In any event, you are almost right. All but one of the original hard copy articles are now on the Internet version. The odd one out is an article about Jimmie Rodgers and the blue yodel, which Rod never got round to coding for some reason.

The point I would like to get across is that Musical Traditions has over the years become an enormous and valuable resource. Personally, I would be surprised to find another music mag of similar size, quality and breadth of coverage on the Internet, in any field of music. Its present tally includes 190 full length articles, 53 enthusiasms (short articles), I've no idea how many reviews, plus news, letters, discography, a dungheap, mondegreens, useful addresses and many other features. It's true we lack a kitchen sink and a crossword, but who knows any day now..........

What's more, its all free at http://mustrad.org.uk.

BTW., Ken. How about reviewing this Ralph Stanley CD for us ?

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

"Then there are grey areas.Looking at an article In mustrad magazine on Walter Pardon, I noticed two songs in his repertoire, Lord Lovel [generally considered traditional]and The Mistletoe Bough[ Thomas Bayley 1884]A relatively recent composition, a fine song, but not in my opinion traditional., although collected from a traditional singer."

What's 'wrong' with Lord Lovel (Child 75), Capt. B.? It is, after all a CHILD BALLAD. Also the fact that The Mistletoe Bough has a known author does not necessarily mean that it's not trad. It has,after all, been selected by many traditional singers - meaning that it may well be/may well have been, well on its way to becoming trad. I believe (and I have said this on another thread) that the insistence on a song having an anonymous author, before it can be considered to be traditional, is mistaken. Any song can become traditional - given enough time and the existence of a process involving selection, transmission and change. The really interesting question is whether such a process operates now.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Shimrod, you really really need to read the history of the terms you use.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Oct 06 - 06:27 PM

About 30 years ago Peter Parkhill was collecting in Australia among Turkish, Greek and other immigrants from the Balkan peninsula and found that their music was indeed changing, via processes defined here and elsewhere as "traditional", over periods of less than 60 years. With only a passing interest in the detail (and therefore a memory probably full of holes) I believe he was able to demonstrate the process as applied to rebetika and published on it.

There are several differences between Professor Child and Peter Parkhill and I may be quite wrong about the one I think relevant to this discussion, but I've always been under the impression that Child, as a Professor of English Literature, wasn't at all interested in the musical aspects of his material except insofar as it influenced the survival of the particular item; instead he was interested in demonstrating the notion that there was great literary value in material that came from well outside the cultural elites.

Again, my understanding is that, although it was an enormously influential pioneering work, it was really just a series of snapshots (earlier perhaps than various recordings we all love but otherwise with no intrinsic differences about the role of texts) that others were subsequently able to use to develop arguments about "tradition" generally, let alone "musical tradition" specifically.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:10 AM

nothing wrong with Lord Lovel ,never said there was.
I disagree with you, with your definition of traditional,would you call God Save the Queen [ undoubtedly sung by tradional singers]on specific occasions, but a composed piece from the same era, or My old kentucky home[StephenFoster ] traditional.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:14 AM

CORRECTION god save the queen was written in the year 1745, but I still dont call it traditional.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 06:05 AM

Dick, as you have now done the national anthem will you please now shut up and let us all go home. And, will the last one to leave please turn out the lights.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 07:41 AM

Hootenany. Is it necessary to be rude, if you disagree or dont want to discuss amicably ,is it not better, to not post.
Those of us who wish to discuss shoud be allowed to do so.
personally if I like a song , enough to sing , Iwill sing it regardless.

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: BB
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 02:28 PM

Surely 'tradition' is defined by usage, not by whether there is a known composer.

It is 'traditional' to sing 'Happy Birthday' on the occasion of someone's birthday; it is 'traditional' for Will Noble to sing 'The Mistletoe Bough' at certain local gatherings; there are certain occasions when it is 'traditional' to sing 'God Save the Queen'; local to me, there are a couple of hunting songs 'traditionally' sung by the hunting community, both of which have known origins, one from the early 1900s, the other from the 1970s; certain songs are 'traditionally' sung by the participants of the Haxey Hood game each year.

The community defines tradition, whether that community is the whole English-speaking world, the citizens of a country, or a locally-based group.

On reflection, I'm not sure how much this actually helps us in defining what songs are traditional and what are not, or how the folk revival singers are able to continue the tradition, unless they now carry them within the 'folk community'. Maybe they do, and hopefully take them back out into their local communities. Don't know - just meandering in my mind and here...

Barbara

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:20 PM

I would be interested to hear how musical traditions define traditional music and why the folk revival is dismissed.

just a question asked.

I asked three questions (Captain Birdseye)

Wolfgang (more sad than amused by a completly unnecessary thread; at least in this form)

Subject: RE: musical traditions
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:41 PM

I'm with you 'BB' - I think you're thinking along the right lines (if I may be so presumptious as to say so).

Capt. B - you're invocation of 'God Save the Queen' is an excellent debating point (you nearly got me there!) - but ('BB' to the rescue!), it is traditional to sing it on certain occasions - but not usually folk song singing occasions.

As for 'My Old Kentucky Home', well, I would cite 'A Rosebud in June' and 'The Famous Flower of Servingmen' as counter examples. Both are generally considered to be 'traditional' and both have been collected from trad. singers. Nevertheless, I believe that the former is from an early 18th Century play (can't remember which one) and the latter was supposed to have been written by someone called Laurence Price in 1656 ('A Book of British Ballads' by Roy Palmer - Llanerch facsimile edition 1998, p.187). I submit that both of these songs have been through 'the folk process' and can now make strong claims to be traditional.

I can't decide whether 'Kentucky Home'can be considered to be trad. or not - or, more importantly, whether 'the folk process' is still operating.

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:21 AM

Blue Clicky

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.or
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

It's mustrad.org.uk not mustrad.org which latter seems to be a portal site.

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:42 AM

The other reason for starting this thread, was to give a bit of publicity for mustrads magazine, to get people to visit the site, ..
   I have enjoyed browsing through the magazine , and even if my own personal definitions of traditional, differ slightly from musical traditions, and other people on this forum.
In retrospect I agree I should have given a better description of the thread originally.
    now I hope Rod Stradling will get the   missing article on Jimmie Rogers[ the Yodelling Brakeman]in shortly.
I have always been fascinated with the concept of what I understand to be a Swiss form of communication, ending up in American Country/ folk music and would like to learn more.I understand [ perhapes incorrectly] that Rodgers learned his yodelling style from GOEBBEL REEVES who had an even more extraordinary yodelling style.
    apparantly Alan Smethurst[ Singing Postman]was a big fan of Jimmie Rodgers, as can be heard in their guitar styles, although Smethurst never yodelled.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk
From: GUEST,eoin O'buadhaigh
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:37 AM

Cap' Birdseye may I ask you a question? (Iam not being cheeky or nasty - possibly ignorant, as I don't know who you are)
What instruments do you play ? do you sing? where have you played? and under what name ? is it Captain Birdseye?
Just curious, I don't wish to be involved in a slanging match but am trying to find out why you so angry at Fred and if you are a REAL musician or someone trying to provoke people who actually have got off their backside and got 'involved' in Traditional Music.
Fred does a cracking job on thr Trsditional Music Magazine, what have you done? A comment was made above that trad music NEVER went away so there is no need for a revival. They are right! do you still think this is the 1950's when the revival started? that was 50 odd years ago and you still believe it is only being revived now. Maybe you should 'think' befpre you speak.    eoin

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk
From: GUEST,guest snow white
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:54 AM

Go back to sleep Eoin it has all been covered before. anyone see my little men? Captain Birdseye Eoin has a point though, Fred does a cracking job so please try to bury the hatchet (not in anyone's back)and please try to be nice to fellow Mudcatters, we are a dying race and don't want to be revived at a later date along with traditional music. Good point Eoin, trad music was revived in the 50's so what is all this nonsense about/
Now where are all my little men?
                                     SW

Subject: RE: Musical Traditions Magazine, http://mustrad.org.uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

GUEST eoin, Iam not angry with Fred, and I apologise if it sounds as if I am .
If you had read through the posts, my identity is clear. I am Dick Miles, I have been a professional singer and musician for 35 years,I have produced two concertina tutors [ available from the Button Box]
I have recorded three cds, one of them BOXING CLEVER, also has on it John Kirkpatrick, Tim Laycock,Harry Scurfield,5 lps with guests such as Martin Carthy , Jez Lowe ,Sara Gray, Richard Grainger . I have played clubs and festivals in england, Ireland and europe. I have also been involved in running three folk clubs over 10 YEAR PERIOD.
Have I been involved, enough in traditional music for you/.
[ SINCE THIS THREAD WAS STARTED] I have had an amicable phone conversation with Fred, and there is no animosity betwen us. IF you had read through all the posts, you would have known who I was, and what I HAVE DONE, probably just as much as Fred ,you would also have seen that I consistently praise MUSICAL TRADITIONS MAGAZINE. fINALLY when Irealised that this thread was getting overheated ,I TRIED TO GET THE FORUM TO CLOSE THE THREAD. best wishes Dick Miles

Agreed. Your wish is my command. Mudelf.