The Four Marys - who were they really?

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:36 AM

Interesting. I count at least 3 possible origins of the story and we seem not to have considered the option that 2 or 3 of these may have contributed to the resulting ballad from oral tradition. The ballad writers, editors and oral tradition frequently mixed up facts from several sources over the centuries. Here's another example, the Child Ballad 'Geordie' actually has elements of 2 separate broadside ballads of the 17th century based loosely on real people, George of Oxford and George Stoole. The deliberate remaking of ballads by broadside writers and the likes of Scott has contributed in no small way to hybrid plots and ballads and material taken from one ballad into another.

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:54 AM

I heard a version where Mary had a baby to Johnny Hamilton "The tallest man in the toon""

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 10:37 AM

Of course the political crowds would scream at any woman whose religion was not theirs that she was a whore; standard insult against women even today, and especially in her century. The Tudors, a psychopathic lot, were ace manipulators, and had certainly turned the English against the Stuarts.

She miscarried twins in July, her husband having died in January. So these six-month foetuses, being twins, may quite possibly have been tiny…

Don't take my word for it, read your history, and use your brains ;)

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 04:50 PM

Really, they cried that long sentence out with one voice?

Hardly likely, is it? It would have taken a cheerleading captain to teach them the words, conduct a practice and signal when to do it.
============
A word of caution - not every book claiming to be a history book actually relates history.

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 11:45 AM

From published sources at the time :--
When Mary Queen of Scots first appeared in public to show her new child to her loving subjects they cried out with one voice "Get back tae France ye French hoor an tack yer Italian bastard wi ye".
She backed up this popularly expressed opinion by later giving birth to twins who could not have been fathered by her, then, husband at the time of conception.

Do not take my word for it---read your history

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:11 AM

Besides the name "Mary Hamilton", another piece of evidence in favour of the Russian incident as at least contributing to the ballad is the dialogue between MH and "the King". Although we normally use an anglicised version of the Russian title, "Czar" or "Tsar", Peter the Great could reasonably be called a king, but not anyone in the court of Mary QoS.

On the other hand, the events as recounted in the ballad are normally set in Edinburgh (apart from one version with the very surprising Glasgow) and Mary QoS did have "four Marys".

So the ballad does seem to be a concatenation of at least those two elements, whether consciously put together by whoever first cast the story into the form of the ballad or combined through confusion at an earlier stage.

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 11:15 PM

All I know is Mary Hamilton got my hyper son to sleep many nights. I used to sing to him at night to get him to sleep, mostly old folk songs. He loved Old Blue and Stewball and a bunch of others. But the one song that usually did the trick was Mary Hamilton. He was usually asleep before I finished!

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:57 PM

The idea that the Four Marys attending Mary Queen of Scots were connected with the Bunty characters is utterly, utterly unbelievable.

Subject: RE: The Four Marys - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:48 PM

My mother was from Bishopbriggs and her name was Mary Fleming. I just have a hunch.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

On youtube, type in George Pickow, and you'll find two sisters sitting a porch swing in Kentucky, singing "Four Marys" as their family knows it.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 04:57 PM

Menolly wrote (some time ago):-
I remember hearing that Marie was a name or title for a lady in waiting and so not necessarily her name !

Interesting..... It makes me think of a couple of verses from a Scots ballad that I sing called Lord Gordon's Kitchen Boy.
Lord Gordon's daughter falls in love with Willie, her father's kitchen boy. Their love seems to be impossible but she builds and equips a fine ship for Willie to captain......

They hadna' sailed a week, a week,
A week but barely three,
When far unto the coast of Spain,
The wind did blaw them free.
A lady on the castle wa'
Beheld the day going down
And there she spied the bonniest ship,
Come sailing tae her town.

"Come here, come here, my Marys a'
D'ye no see what I see?
Here I spy the bonniest ship
That ever sailed the sea.
It's busk and busk, my Marys a'
Busk and mak' ye fine.
Whilst I must go down to the shore
And mak' her captain mine."

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Jean Brown
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 04:32 PM

The 4 Maries:
Mary Seaton
Mary Beaton
Mary Livingston
Mary Fleming.

The song tells of Mary Seaton, Mary Beaton, Mary Carmichael and me (Mary Fleming)

Yestreen (Yesterday?) the Queen had four Maries, the nicht she'll hae but three
There was Mary Seaton, Mary Beaton and Mary Carmichael and me

How often hae I dressed my Queen, and put gouds(plaits?) in her hair,
But noo I've gotten for my reward, the gallows to be my share.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

I prefer Mr. Happy's definition of The Four Marys :-D

sign me
an old Bunty reader

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: robinia
Date: 06 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM

Who were they really? As Mary Garvey says, the song says all we need to know on that point. But of course, what it really dwells upon (just as Macpherson's Lament does) is the singer's brave spirit. Hence those "inexplicable" verses that contrast weeping spectators with the condemned woman's "inappropriate" dress and demeanor.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 02:09 PM

My wife's name is Mary Hamilton but she says it's nothing to lose her head over.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Davie_
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 11:14 AM

GOOGLE UP MARY HAMILTON

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 08:39 AM

The Peter the Great reference can be found in Massie's book Peter the Great. He did really good documentation for a popular [sic] history book.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 07:38 AM

scrooge, as I inperpret it, she is being decieved into going to Glasgow because she is not supposed to know what her fate it. Of course, she does know.
Another slant is, the original word was "Hanging". Who knows? Sounds like a lot of poetic licence to me.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 06:39 AM

err from Memory:

Mary Beaton, Mary Seaton, Mary Carmichael and of course ME



Mary

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 05:25 AM

The Four Marys
The Four Marys was the longest story the comic ran - drawn by artist Barrie Mitchell, it spanned right from its creation in 1958 to its end in 2001. When the strip started, public boarding schools like St. Elmo's, the girls' boarding school, were common, but as time went on, they became less accessible to 'Bunty's general audience, which was possibly why The Comp (see below) was introduced. It centred around four young teenagers who lived in a girls-only boarding school in Elmbury, and often had problems with studying, being bored, or helping (and being hindered by) the other girls or teachers within the school. The Four Marys appeared to be about 14 in age, although it was never concrete- the only hint given is that they are over 12, but under 17.

Regular characters included-

Lady Mary Radleigh (Raddy): Raddy was the only blonde of the four, a polite but outspoken girl with a rather wealthy family (their home, Radleigh Hall, was featured intermittently in the strip). Raddy was depicted as the responsible one of the four who ran for school campaigns, took on prefecting duties and took up activist causes. Her well-placed upper-class connections meant that her father (Earl Radleigh) could usually support her in whatever scheme her attention was placed on.

Mary Simpson (Simpy): Simpy, a dark curly-haired girl, was a scholarship student from a lower-class background who was excellent at maths and had won her place at St. Elmo's through sheer hard work and dedication. At the time of 'Bunty's creation, this was a rather political topic - admission to upper-class public schools still mainly ran on wealth, and the class divide was a hotly debated issue. Simpy, although accepted without question by the other Marys, nevertheless had a good deal of prejudice from her classmates, and many of her plotlines were centred around the difficulty of dealing with her separation of class.

Mary Field (Fieldy) and Mary Cotter (Cotty): Fieldy as the short-haired sporty member of the group, as her name suggests. An extremely active and energetic girl, Fieldy won a great deal of trophies for the school during her stint there. Cotty, the last member of the group, was artistic, long-haired and polite - a shy, well-spoken and sweet balance to Fieldy's vivaciousness.

Mabel Lentham and Veronica Lavery: The school bullies. Snobbish, upper-class and unlikeable, Mabel and Veronica usually ended up causing trouble for the four Marys out of spite. Mabel was clearly the ringleader, leading the rather weaker and less confident Veronica along in her wake.

Miss Creef and Dr Gull/Miss Mitchell: The Marys' form mistress and headteacher respectively. Miss Creef (nicknamed 'Creefy') was a strict dark-haired spinster who always dressed in an academic gown and mortar-board. She was uptight and fastidious, like the early headmistress Dr Gull. Dr Gull was replaced after some time with Miss Mitchell, a young, blonde and very pretty woman who often came as a comic contrast the severity of Miss Creef.

The St. Bartoph Boys:Four boys who went to the local boys' boarding, St. Bartophs. They would occasionally meet up with the Marys in town, or for school functions like dances. Mabel and Veronica were always notoriously jealous of their enemies' friendship to the boys.

The Four Marys was always the staple story of 'Bunty', and the one it was most famous for. Even though the concepts of the comic strip became archaic as time went on, it was kept on for posterity and ran right to the end of the series.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunty

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,scrooge
Date: 05 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM

What does the reference to the wedding mean?

"Oh rise arise Mary Hamilton
Arise and come with me
There is a wedding in Glasgow town
This night we'll go and see
She put not on her robes of black
Nor her robes of brown
But she put on her robes of white
To ride into Glasgow town
And as she rode into Glasgow town
The city for to see
The bailiff's wife and the provost's wife
Cried Alack and alas for thee"

Why would someone about to be hung go off to see someone's wedding?

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:44 AM

as the french say, everyone to his goat!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:39 PM

Well there are plenty of ballads that deal with infanticide, so I don't doubt that it was common, especially in light of the fact that there was no effective birth control and an unmarried woman who gave birth faced social ostracism, disgrace and could very well find it difficult if not impossible to support a child on her own. But, I've never heard that attitudes towards the practice were lax.   

Regarding Mary Hamilton - I wasn't really referring to conflicting feelings about going to the gallows - everybody would view that prospect with dread, but her feelings about the whole situation - guilt for what she had done along with anger at having been used and then cast off.   I think there are several very rich scenes in the ballad - the verse about the provost's wife and the bailiff's wife who express sympathy, and she tells them 'you need not weep for me, for had I not slain my own wee babe this death I would not die", the scene with the king described above, the scene where as she faces the gallows...What can I say, I've always liked the song!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Kent Davis
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

"guest" of 14 April 8:40 is me. Apparently I've lost my cookie.
Kent Davis

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM

Leenia on April 12 notes that "in the olden days, attitudes toward infanticide were very lax compared to modern attitudes" and Ebarnacle notes on the same day that infanticide was, in the time of Peter the Great "a common practice". Does anyone know of any references for these statements? Seems to me that, if infanticide were common and attitudes toward it were lax, then the point of the song becomes "What a shame that Mary was executed for a minor thing like killing her baby." Somehow I find that doubtful, but I admit that I am not an expert on the history of Renaissance Scotland or early modern Russia.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 09:13 PM

I particularly like the detail of the king thinking he can make amends by inviting her to dinner. Just like a man!

All the same -- in another age, of another sex, and deficient in empathy, I still feel, when I hear that song: that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:19 PM

Mary's version of the song is super -- so well done - anfd I had the pleasure of hearing it live at the Getaway last year. Speaking personally, I love the song.....

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:07 AM

what would be the conflicting feelings on being taken to the gallows - I should have thought it was a pretty one dimensional situation?

On the other hand, you've got to laugh.... I don't think so.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 09:25 AM

Well to each his own, I have to say that this is one of my favorite ballads and I absolutely love Joan Baez' version. And I don't think I'm the only one that likes it, it's on my CD and several people have said it is their favorite song on the album. The Four Marys to me is interesting because of the details - I can imagine the conflicting feelings of Mary Hamilton as she is taken to the gallows. And I wonder about her situation, maybe she had little choice if she was seduced by a man of a much higher station. Whether or not this actually happened in the court of Mary Queen of Scots is irrelevant - it surely DID happen time and time again. The dilema of what to do with an illegitimate child when the WOMAN bore all the stigma and disgrace...

I will admit to being one of those who gladly sits through long ballads - even the sad ones, provided the singer does a good job of singing/telling the tale.

One man's meat is another man's poison, I guess!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:57 AM

Well actually that is not quite the way I would describe it. One of the best things I ever saw in a folk club was Taffy Thomas/Tim Laycock doing the Long Larkin Ballad with Magic Lantern - its all down to how its done. And that song ended up with people being burned alive!

I'm not saying these things are without value. Its just that song has never seemed rise above providing five or six minutes of insight into an extremely miserable landscape.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:40 AM

Loved your post, weelittledrummer.

I share your feelings about people who take over the stage with morbid, interminable ballads.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:17 AM

Anybody remeber the play, Daisy Pulls it Off?

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:10 AM

The Four Marys (Bunty): Simpson, Radleigh, Field & Cotter

Bunty was also the home of The Four Marys — Mary Simpson, Mary Radleigh, Mary Field and Mary Cotter (aka Simpy, Raddy, Fieldy and Cotty) — pupils at St Elmo's School for Girls. Most of the stories are about a running feud with the two bad girls, Mabel and Veronica, who constantly try to get the Four Marys into trouble with the formidable mortar-board-wearing headmistress Dr Gull. The Four Marys are all very similar; they simply embody being good chums and good sports, just as Mabel and Veronica embody being evil schemers. Of course their evil schemes are thwarted and the Four Marys win out at the end of every story.

From The Times Online

Nigel

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:08 AM

I remeber there was a fat one, who was a bit of a duffer and who was allowed to hang around with the magic circle of friends, to provide moments of low comedy - nothing seedy, you understand.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: SussexCarole
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:03 AM

Was Jones the name of the 4th Mary in Bunty?

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:23 AM

well first I knew about the song was Joan Baez back in the 60's, and it struck me as really bloody miserable even in those days. In the 1960's, every folk club had its Joanie lookalike treating us to five or six minutes of the undiluted misery of this song's sentiments. Usually rounded off by that a utterly callous piece of philosophising in Donna Donna Donna, about those who value freedom finding wings to fly!

thank heaven there are no unwanted children and young mothers driven to extremes for us to worry about nowadays!

as for the legend of Mary Stewart - that's another real downer.

I remember my mother going to Holyrood House and seeing the spyhole where her nuptials and/or indiscretions were spyed on, and being really depressed that humanity was such a stew even in those days. Most days I pass the ruins of Wingfield Manor where Mary was imprisoned for a while, and its hard not to bring to mind the hideous cruelty meted out to her and her followers.

My instinctive reaction is to turn away from these songs. I feel somwwhat the same about those songs detailing the savagery of the Black and Tans.

Sorry can't help being squeamish! Am I the only one who feels this way about folksong?

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:47 PM

Yes - my first introduction to 'The four Mary's' was via 'Bunty -- which also had a ghastly feature each week - a picture full of 'deliberate mistakes....'--three armed people and such like. I had a hard time with that......!

But unlike some of the earlier posters, I love this song .... always have done......

That is an interestin hypothesis posted by legionareuk.......

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:33 PM

like Ms Lemon in 2003, I couldn't help feel the stirring of those nascent feelings of sexual longing aroused by the three Mary's, who featured on the cover of my sister's Schoolfriend Magazine. I was particularly taken by the leader of the group, who had " a chestnut mane".

There was another story line about an unfortunate public schoolgirl called Lettice Leaf - the greenest girl in the school. Well, she wore glasses...... what a hoot!

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM

The source for the Catherine/Peter the Great interpretation can be found in Massie's "Peter the Great."
The issue was not entirely the infanticide. The issue was that Peter had issued a ukase stating that there would be no infanticide [then a common practice] because Russia at that time was relatively underpopulated. Having enforced the law against the common people, he could not excuse an event that Mary Hamilton had performed more than once, including at least once after the issuance of the order.
Apparently, she was quite a bawdy lady.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:09 AM

In my opinion, life is too short and provides too much real nastiness to bother with this song.

It was a great relief to me to find out that there is no record of anything like this ever happening in the court of Mary, Queen of Scots. The whole story is just another item of anti-Catholic propaganda, rather like the "nuns and priests have babies and bury them at midnight" tales heard in redneck America.

As for references, I can't provide any. I read armfuls of stuff and don't memorize all those authors and titles.

Another thing - in the olden days, attitudes toward infanticide were very lax compared to modern attitudes. I won't go into gruesome detail, but the chances of Mary's court going into a tizzy and hanging a member of the nobility over an illegetimate child are small.

The tune I know for "Mary Hamilton" is very lovely, however, and I have tried to write completely new words for it. Unf'ly I am not good at rhymes and meter. I wish somebody would save it from the "Four Maries" lyrics.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,legionareuk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:42 AM

just a quick one(and maybe,off the wall)but....
has any one ever conciderd that the " queen " could perhaps be " queen elisebeth 1" and the fourth mary is in fact mary queen of scots,who we all know was killed by elisebeth 1.....
just a thought...who knows ????

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Ritchie
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 08:19 AM

Ms Lemon, I thought you were going to give me the 4th Mary's name..
Radleigh? Simpson? and Cotter? I think were the other three but the 4th's one escapes me.... wonder what they are doing now? along with Alf Tupper, Gorgeous Gus and a host of other child hood friends I had. I think I'll write into friends re-united.
keeping it real Ritchie.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

Oops, and Mary Seton.
Keith.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:29 PM

Lady Jean, the 4 Maries were Livingstone, Fleming, Beaton, and Fleming.
Keith.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:48 PM

PS I have just looked in 'The Clans and Tartans of Scotland' by Robert Bain and under Hamilton, Origin of Name: Hambledon, Place name in England.
Jim

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:44 PM

Ewan, the Scottish word 'hamble' means 'title to or right of possession or belonging to the home' and is also the same as 'hamelt' so one can only guess that walter Scott might have been using the old word??
Jim

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Joe,
Thhanks indeed. The Ballad List supplied more chapter and verse on this. Still don't know why Sir Walter spelt it his way.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 12:07 AM

I believe Mary Stuart's maids were named Mary Seaton, Mary Beaton, Mary Livingstone, and Mary Hamilton. This is from Antonia Fraser's biography, and I don't put a lot of faith in popular historians.

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:48 PM

When I saw this thread I thought it was about the four (or was it three) Mary's in the Bunty comic! sorry. Carry on.

Sal

Subject: RE: The Four Mary's - who were they really?
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

Ewan McVicar: Quite a few sources, summarized in the review article "Maid-of-Honour Hamilton" by M. I. Semefsky, in _Slovo i Dyelo_ (Word and Deed), St Petersburg, 1885. Child summarizes the article at some length: "When the Hamiltons first came to Russia does not appear. Artemon Sergheievitch Matveief, a distinguished personage,... married a Hamilton, of a Scottish family settled at Moscow, after which the Hamilton family ranked with the aristocracy."

I suppose the name would have become "Gamil'ton" in Russian.