Playing the piano

Subject: Playing the piano
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:35 AM

I am a singer & pianist, singing ballads and playing the odd tune. I sing at a few sessions, always a capella, as pianos are probably the least portable instrument of all time. Hardly anywhere has a piano and those that do are generally horrifically out of tune. I really want to do something with my music but I'm finding it hard to play properly anywhere. I have a digital piano, but this is still about 1283478923 tonnes and too big for my car. I also have a keyboard, but it's not very nice to play (non-weighted keys/less octaves etc) and I feel like it'd get in the way abit at a session, need to be plugged in and is hardly the traditional, girly, folky sound I'm going for.

Has anyone else had this problem??!!! I don't know what to do! Help!!

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:57 AM

jOKE, sounds like a case for the german musicianer song.
    try the piano accordion, but be wary of the inherent difficulties of this instument, remember to use plenty of finger attack to get staccato, and work on bellows as much as you can to avoid lack of rhythm[ a common failing of piano accordionists] and try and be light on the basses. Phil Cunningham is a piano accordionist you should listen to.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:33 AM

A piano is a percussion instrument - a piano accordion is a wind (reed) instrument, more closely related to a pipe organ than a piano (or a harpsichord)!

Dick is right, you need to work using the bellows and finger attack in a VERY different manner to that of a piano - which is the main reason there are so many bad piano accordion players who are ex-piano players out there - and so many teachers of the piano accordion who think it is just like a piano...

If you are a piano player who is thinking about piano accordion, I recommend you read

Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM

And if you want to listen to the piano accordian player the pro's all turn to, you will listen to Jimmy Keane, currently with Bohola and Green Fields of America. He is phenomenal.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:51 AM

Thanks for your advice! Not sure piano accordian was the route I wanted to go down: I don't have the muscles for the bellows; I feel the only similarity between the two is the keyboard and I still don't get the nice girly folky sound!

I think I've managed to cross one option off my list!!!

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:56 AM

If you go regularly to a session at a place with an out-of-tune piano, maybe you could go half with the owner on getting it tuned.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 11:37 AM

TRY THE CONCERTINA .english or duet

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: jbailes
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 12:26 PM

i have a baldwin 45" high street piano on a custommade dolly with 10" pneumatic wheels that i push from out of my garage around on capitol hill washington dc. it is great fun and of course an eye-catcher. every sunday afternoon we play for 3 or 4 hours in front of a bookstore.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Rockhen
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:17 PM

jbailes...that sounds great, shame you are so far away or we'd come along for a listen!

To Guest... This is just my experience, but just in case it helps...
A couple of years ago, I bought a Casio Privia Stage piano...it is light enough for me to carry in one hand in a gig bag. It is an 88 note weighted-feel touch sensitive electric piano thingy which is a pretty reasonable substitute for a 'real' piano.

Its portability was the thing that I was looking for and it was much lighter and nowhere near as cumbersome as most of the other makes.
(They are about £500 new, so dearer than a keyboard but I think they are coming down in price.)

Normal keyboards, in my experience are just nowhere near as good to play, if you are used to a piano. My stage piano feels as though you are playing a piano not a keyboard. I love it!
It has its own speakers built in, unlike some. It also has a reasonable sustain pedal.

I take it to my local folk club and other places without too much difficulty and it is good not to have to rely on asking people to help you carry it as I can take it and set it up myself with no difficulty.
I use it to play in a piano vocals duo as well as the odd rock type gig and it seems to be at ease playing with its own speakers for small audiences right up to using as a keyboard or piano through full amplification systems. Very versatile.
It may not be an option for you to buy one right now but you could always try some out and keep watching ebay and similar as they are bound to get cheaper. Good luck! I think it is sad that the piano is becoming a less common instrument and I see the new portable electric ones as the next best alternative. (the more trad people still won't let me play it at acoustic nights though :-(   !!!)

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:41 PM

" I don't have the muscles for the bellows"

Fallacy - you can get very small ones - please read the thread recommended... with less than 120 basses ('folk music' 'needs' far less) - teh ssmaller, the easier, but you have built up the muscles for playing the piano over - how many years? - so you will just need to build up teh 'bellows muscles', same as yo would need to build up tehsets ofmuscles for ANY new instrument.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Rockhen
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:52 PM

I bought a small piano accordion thinking that it would act as a substitute piano...as Foolestroupe says many do...but I have found it to be a totally different instrument and it opens new possibilities for playing in all sorts of places, situations and totally different styles. I AM a piano player who happens to have an accordion but as long as I don't profess to be an accordion expert, and am not to proud to bow to the superior knowledge and experience of those who are, I can still enjoy playing it and if I play it sensitively (yes it is possible, lol!) I don't think I annoy too many people with it. It doesn't have to be EITHER piano OR accordion after all! :-)

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:52 PM

Actually Rockhen's comments would almost equally apply to the pipe organ - or even most multi-keyboard 'electronic organs'.

The only thing in common is the keyboard.

In other threads here I mentioned a recent invention about a gadget that is a shell that looks like a grand piano for 'keyboards'.

I'm no piano accordion expert, just a recycled multi-instrumentalist muso who knows a few tricks - I also try to learn as much as I can from other musos, in person or thru books, tapes, video, etc...

There is another things about 'keyboards' - the physical 'thing' that is.

Pianos (actually pianofortes!) have a totally different 'touch' from a keyboard on a harpsichord, pipe organ, piano accordion, 'midi keyboard', etc. The latter are mostly 'on-off' switches.

'Piano-fortes' have 'variable touch' - and the hundreds of designs of actions are various attempts to to refine this.

It was probably due to my slight MMD that I found that 'non-pianofortes' were more my kind of instrument.

The more expensive 'electronic keyboards' have 'velocity sensitive' action - which attempts to emulate a 'piano-forte' action.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 09:05 PM

"The only thing in common is the keyboard."

Actually I really meant only the VISUAL appearance of the keyboard.


"it opens new possibilities for playing in all sorts of places, situations and totally different styles."

Sadly many 'piano accordion squeezers***' learnt their music theory on the instrument - and this means that they probably got as far as 3/4 time before they 'stopped learning' - sadly this is the reason for the often prevalence of the association of the 'Oom pah pah' 'bass chord chord' sound with piano accordions.

There is SO MUCH MORE one can do rhythmically (just like on concertinas and 'button boxes') - I ranted on at length about that in the thread I mentioned - I do thank others who have contributed too.


*** That wasn't MEANT to be rude...

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:35 AM

How about a hammered dulcimer?

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 05:02 AM

How about a hammered piano?
Joking there guys
Rockhen plays some beautiful piano music and she also manages to to join in with the rest of us mere mortals on her accordion in a very constructive way that really enhances the sound of any group of players.
I wish some of our local mandolin/guitar/banjo/12 string and whistle players could manage the same she never takes over the song or the tune.
'Tis a shame that there just are not the number of pianos in the venues we use that there used to be.
Maybe we should start only using places that do or maybe the piano players could find out where they are and arrange for us to play there.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

The problem with using a venue's piano is that it is often
about as good as a guitar that's been sitting in the cloak
room for 25 years because someone abandoned it there...

I learned piano and 5-string banjo simultaneously, beginning
at age 7. Took up guitar in college, at 20.

My 'formal' training (with music theory) was on piano, and
about 80% of the 'book learning' crossed right over into
fretted instruments, making it easier to do the right things
over there.

Just as nearly every 'educated' (meaning formally educated)
musician is expected to have at least a passing knowledge of
piano, and sight-singing, I believe that it's a great exercise
to also have competency on some fretted instrument.

Also great good fun.

So...if you buy a guitar and take some lessons, you may find
that your piano skill is absolutely not wasted.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Rockhen
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:15 PM

I hardly know any accordion players at all...I think there is an anti-accordion shield over most of North Lincolnshire.
Mind you, I went to the Lindum Accordion players club once....about 40 accordions playing same tune at once....eeeeekkkk! It was a frightening experience when I first got my accordion... but I have almost recovered now, (maybe it was just a bad night...sorry if anyone is a member there! :-)

Long live the piano ...AND the piano accordion...!

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:19 PM

Hey rocky you have met at least five when you have been out with us.
How many accordions do you need LOL

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 08:59 PM

I have about half a dozen - different ones for different purposes - musical purposes that is...

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 03:56 AM

"I think there is an anti-accordion shield over most of North Lincolnshire"

- so is Barrow-on-Humber nowhere near North Lincs now?

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 08:56 AM

Get a banjo.

eric

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

The original question sounds (to me) like the search is for something as nearly like a piano as possible, except portable.

There is a wide variety of keyboards available, and with a little searching and testing it is likely that you can find a keyboard that will come close to what you're asking. The next question will be whether you can/want to afford it, since the ones with the "nice" features become more expensive as each feature is tacked on.

For most keyboards in the affordable/portable range, you'll likely find them more like playing an organ than like a piano; and it is something of a different thing. A piano can get some difference in volume as you whack it harder, and you can use the sustain pedal to draw out a note; but an organ, or keyboard of ordinary kind, sustains the note as long as the key is held down. It "needs" a different technique.

Keyboards with "velocity sensitive" keys can respond with variations in loudness in response to how vigorously you attack the keys, but the sustain is still there in all of them I've seen. There are variants with "pressure sensitive" keys as well, I'm told; but I presume still with "organ like" sustain.

I've seen ads for keyboards that make the claim that they mimick the "percussion" response of a piano pretty well, and your digital piano might be of this kind; but the ones advertised were far beyond - in price alone - where my interest disappeared before I did much investigating. If one were to deliberately look for something of this kind, there quite likely are more affordable ones "somewhere out there." Perhaps Rockhen's suggestion of the Casio Privia would be a good starting place, as it claims "hammer action" keyboards.

If you want real portability, it may be necessary to sacrifice an octave or two, and some of the "pianoness." There should also be at least a few that can be run off (internal?) batteries if avoiding the search for a socket is helpful. The actual acoustical power needed to compete with most session instruments isn't all that great, and a modestly sized battery pack should let you play for a few hours before requiring a recharge with at least some of the available keyboards; and if the pack is small enough you can carry a spare.

(The Casio mentioned indicates 12 to 18W + 2 8W speakers, which would be a bit of a load - but not impossible - for a midling sized motorcycle battery for a couple of hours. An extension cord would be a somewhat lighter to carry.)

Almost any digital keyboard will offer a choice of "voices" so if you wish you probably can play the keyboard and sound a lot like an accordion - or a penny whistle.

I wouldn't discourage you from looking at other instruments more "typical" of session playing, as the "piano" can have a tendency to overwhelm some other popular instruments. We'll assume you'll be nice about it ... - ... and at any rate you'll likely be no worse than the squeezers.

John

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:36 AM

Hey!

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:41 AM

Don't know how any of these types sound or how sensitive they are to touch, but there's always the Rollup Piano:-> If you do a google search, there are even some for fifty bucks.

kat

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:45 AM

Dunno about a "Rollup Piano", but I've met a few "Rollup Musos" after a few drinks...

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 01:15 AM

ebay...

search for something cheap 2nd hand like small compact handbag sized Alesis nano piano module

http://www.harmony-central.com/Synth/Data/Alesis/NanoPiano-rev.html

get a decent pair of small powered [built in amp]computer speakers..


and a good quality budget price midi control keyboard

[more expensive ones have 88 weighted keys]

which you can play on your lap..
[no more noticable than a dulcimer..!!]


then as long as you can find a spair electric socket in any club
within reach of an extension lead..


this whole kit would fit in a sports bag and be nowhere near as visually obtrusive as your portable keyboard,
if you place the module and speakers safely out of sight under your chair..

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST,muscle-free music!
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:22 AM

If your community has folks who are from India, you may find a harmonium-type of instrument at shops which feature Indian goods. I believe it's called a Veena?   You can pump it with one hand and play with the other.

An alternative, perhaps more 'girly' instrument would be a thing with strings called a 'guitar'; lots of 'girls' play them; they're affordable and portable, and if you learn six chords and buy a capo, you can get through just about any session worth attending. Get nice low action, maybe a nylon-stringed version, and get your funky 'Dominique' on with your bad self.

Yes, you can. They aren't that hard to play.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST,walkaboutsverse
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:08 AM

The Cumberland Arms, Byker, Newcastle, has a small upright piano - I have a tinker some Tuesdays, when the singaround is on, as well as trying some E. Trad. intro's on a tenor-recorder.

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:55 AM

muscle-free;

Are you saying you play one of These?

John

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:54 AM

I have a Roland FP8 midi-compatible digital piano -- 88 adjustable (transposing and touch-sensitive) keys, a dozen different sounds (ie honky-tonk, grand, electric, mallets, strings), built-in speakers, record feature etc. Speakers are great -- but for concert, it needs an amp when playing with other plugged in folk. Came with bench, folding stand, damper pedal, plastic cover. Dubbed a "portable piano", it easily fits in the back seat of my little Mazda - but to get it in there, I need help. One strong person could carry it no problem, but me all by my lonesome?

Forget it!

The salespeople at the local music store tried to sell me this humungous gig bag for it a couple years ago. Said it would make it easier to transport --- HA! I told em if it were to be a worthwhile investment, for someone like me, it would have to come with free gorilla. For lifting.

As for the piano taking up room on the stage, that wouldn't bother me. Acoustic pianos dwarf the thing ... and besides, I'll always make room for a fine-sounding instrument! Just arrive early to set it up in the most out-of-the-way spot before the music begins.   And plugging it in has never been a problem for me - most venues are equipped with electrical outlets, even the outdoor ones.

But hey, if you'd rather see the musical situation you describe as an excuse to learn a new instrument, go for it! WHatever you decide, GUEST, all the best with your musical adventures!

daylia

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:07 AM

I don't think you want a Veena. It's cross between a Sitar and a slide guitar!
The Indian hand pumped Harmonium is called a Harmonium, and I was ofered one for £25.00 last week by a friend who saw it in a car boot sale.
They are a little like melodeons in that they can have either one two or three sets on reeds on each note.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Playing the piano
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:41 AM

I have an Indian Harmonium, and I have a couple of various 'portable reed organs' - basically half an accordion with a few stradella basses.

One I have been meaning to start a thread to get fixed...

Actually years ago I came across a thing that had some guitar strings - not many, and was called a 'clavichord' - this was an electric one with pickups in a black vinyl case - was used in a band - sig out to go to processing box - dearly want to find one of those - they work by touching the strings at varying points to get many notes out of one string...