BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out

Subject: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:26 PM

Survey result: 2 Out of 3 Americans want withdrawal of U.S. Troops From Iraq. Even Half of Conservatives Now Favour 'Firm Deadline' for Pulling
Troops Out of Iraq. So why does this government STILL not listen to its people ? It really baffles me All I read here is no one likes President George Bush, well someone must like him and his party, otherwise he wouldn't be there. No survey results for Britain as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM

"So why does this government STILL not listen to its people ?"

Because it doesn't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM

Why bother listening ... what are the people going to do?

sI

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:45 PM

I should also add .... how are the people getting their point across to those in power.

Sitting on their butts letting the press do all the talking?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:53 PM

Why should the government listen to its people when it has all the power and they have none? Why should it listen when elections can be fixed and media can be controlled? Why should it listen when both the Democratic and Republican parties are controlled by the very same huge monied interests from behind the scenes?

That could explain why it doesn't listen.

Mind you, there comes a point when it may have to listen. We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:58 PM

People have to convey their message directly to the ones elected, participate, bang drums, scream, sing songs whatever .... most people in this day and age are rather mediocre, would rather sit and watch the daily news ... grumble while sitting in an easy chair.

People like to point fingers ... but do nothing ... simple as that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM

Many people who had never run for office before decided to become candidates in Democratic races when Bush won the last election. The Dean internet grassroots activists at democracy for america became energized to get very involved. It has made a bit of a difference. The money behind Republicans and the jerrymandering to eliminate Democratic seats has been hard to battle against. Here's the site that has helped many more people get involved.
DEMOCRACYFORAMERICA.COM

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 02:13 PM

"It has made a bit of a difference."

It would make more of a difference if more people were enrgized and let themselves be heard.

It's a tough hard battle for sure ... but a battle worth fighting for.

What's that saying ... "evil will only prevail, if good men sit and do nothing".

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 02:40 PM

WEll, I'm sure that now that they have banned Vegemite and gotten that problem out of the way, they'll have a lot more time to work on getting the troops out of Iraq. So many other important tasks are at hand though...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Alice
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 02:49 PM

The bit of a difference now is building for a bigger difference in the future. The point of going on with the democracy for America movement was to build up the number of participants as voters, campaigners and candidates who will continue into the future. New candidates will gain experience on the local level to be elected to higher levels. You may not have heard of democracy for America, but the people involved have not quit just because Bush was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:26 PM

I remember an interview with Fr.Neil Horan about three years ago in which he said, "Within the next decade Americans would have a common enemy within their own nation" it would appear these wise words have come true.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:36 PM

"In a recorded interview broadcast on ABC's This Week program, the president said Republicans are doing a far better job of protecting the American people than Democrats ever could. He said he is confident they will make their case successfully to the electorate, despite polls that indicate a Democratic victory could be imminent, at least in the House of Representatives."

But who will protect Americans from the Republicans?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

I've managed to get myself on a few lists, and you'ld be amazed at the number of newsletters and bulletins I get in my e-mail every day from organizations similar to Democracy for America. There is a lot of grassroots activity out there. Just because the media seem oblivious to it doesn't mean there isn't a pretty hefty ground-swell building, and it's going to have a powerful effect. And soon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:57 PM

True, Don. Mainstream media seems to be being very-well controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: gnu
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:17 PM

A few Canucks posts to this thread. Have ye Canucks emailed your MP, the PM, regarding the fact that we are participating in a war against the Taliban? That is, we are participating in a Civil War... and, essentially, a religious war in a foreign country. A war in which we should have have no... Maybe a new thread...

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:34 PM

So what do the other 299,999,997 Americans have to say?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

Well know real soon I think.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

Yes I have gnu ... e-mailed the Prime Minister, Jack Layton and have talked (in person twice)to our Liberal MP Paul Zed ... who happens to favour Canadia's contribution to Afghanistan .... but, I bet he can be swayed if he hears from more Canadians opposing it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:05 PM

gnu - My MP is David Emerson and he knows we didn't vote for him in the first place. He could care less what the people think. He does what the 'big boys' want him to do.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:49 PM

dianavan ... did you send an e-mail to Emerson (regardless) ... did ya send an e-mail to the Prime Minister's office ... did ya send an e-mail to Layton encouraging him in his effort's?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:24 PM

I don't believe I know anyone who would not like to have the troops out. When the Iraqi Security forces and police cand protect themselves and the citizens of Iraq, they can all come home.

Suppose in WW2 a similar poll was taken and two out of three Americans wanted our toops pulled out of that war ...Would Roosevelt/Truman pulled them out?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: TIA
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:40 PM

LH said it all above.

I am preparing to speak with peaceful actions.

If there is another late-night-switch-of-the-lead-in-defiance-of-the-exit-polls election this November, my day job will suffer as I sit in front of trains. It worked once before.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:44 PM

Doug-


World War II was not started by the US--perhaps you haven't noticed. The Iraq war definitely was--and Saddam had nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks. Your boy Mr. Bush has admitted as much. Perhaps you didn't notice that either.

So your parallel fails.

It's back to the drawing board--or perhaps to Fox news for your next spoonful of propaganda-- for you.

The next call you receive will be your official notification that you are to inform the families of all US soldiers who die in Iraq from now of of exactly why they died.

Feeble attempts to link Hitler with a Saddam now in custody will not fly, sorry to say.

And if you try to bring Osama into it, be sure to point out that it was Bush who provided Osama's best recruiting tool--by the Iraq war he (Bush) started.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:56 PM

"from now on"

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:48 PM

Okay, I think most of us can agree that going into Iraq was a mistake, can't we???

Dougie??? Old Guy??? Teribus???

Now that we've made this drastic mistake which had brought about a lot of unfortunate after effects that many of us warned would come the issue is now, how to get out and what we owe the Iraqi people for screwing up their country alot worse than it was under Saddam...

This isn't an easy question to answer but I will say that we have an obligation to Iraq... No, not a miltary obligation seein' as military solutions don't work in Iraq but make things worse...

No, this is gonna take some serious diplomacy, some serious out-of-the-box thinkin and new leadership in the US...

Einstein said that "a problem cannot be solve with the same conscienceness that created it..."

I'm not too comfortable that the Dems can do this but we know that Bush and his buddies don't so much as have a clue...

Sho nuff wihed that we had a fully funded Department of Peace right now to help out with some of the heavy lifting that can't be done by folks who think that a "military model" can fix anything...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:00 PM

Not going into Baghdad in '91 was a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:16 PM

Exit polls have been banned since 2000 (the results if exit polls varied with the Diebold results by a staggering 55% compared with a historic 3% varience in the past - better not trust those exit polls anymore)

Whatever Americans have to say, it will not be official until Diebold voting machines tell us what we are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 12:11 AM

"Not going into Baghdad in '91 was a mistake."

That is true. But it was also not in the UN mandate. If you read "It Doesn't Take a Hero", you'll know that the Generals understood what was at stake. However, as always, the politicians called the shots and the Generals followed orders. And not going into Iraq's capital was one of those orders.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:51 AM

Does anyone remember Viet Nam? Johnson knew the war was lost but he had a Tiger by the tail and just kept pouring more troops into a lost cause. He told Robert McNamara that he didn't know how to get out of the mess. Bush has the same problem. He would rather watch the casualty rate climb than to admit he was wrong.
So, 2/3 of Americans want out. It's too bad they woke up so late, many of us knew from the start that we had no business going in there in the first place.The evidence was there but "we" chose to listen to the moron.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:38 AM

International forces must not abandon Iraq while the situation there is still volatile, even though Iraqi forces are assuming a greater role in securing the country, Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh said Monday.

"I do believe there is no option for the international community to cut and run," Saleh told reporters after meeting Prime Minister Tony Blair.

He said Iraqi forces will be in control of seven or eight of Iraq's 18 provinces by the end of the year.

"We understand that this cannot be an open-ended commitment by the international community," Saleh said, but added: "For some time to come we will need the support of the international community."

(From AP)

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:31 PM

In the end, it will be partitioned just like Yugoslavia was, and thousands will have died for nothing. No wonder we don't support the World Court.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

A man who believes his own popularity and PR is more important than a human life has his values so inverted they must be parked in a dark back passage somewhere. Thus, Bin Laden, Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld, and the whole mess of banshee psychos prancing around the world stage. A pox on all their effing houses.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM

Amos: at last! You post something I agree with. Your post of the 23rd at 10:38 AM.

Ron Davies: why do you continue to allow me to pull your string? You are probably the last person in the world who I would attempt to change their weird thinking. Well, maybe Greg F. It's a toss-up.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 04:41 PM

Glad to hear it, Doug; perhaps there's hope for you yet!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:13 PM

sIx - The words you were after have not been found in the usually assumed source. And rotten things often happen when people do when it would have been better to refrain.

I'll say again, in response to the idea of using force to sort problems out,

   "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."




    ivor

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:38 PM

Doug--

Sorry, but anybody who tries to link World War II and the Iraq war shows a remarkable thrall to the Limbaugh-Hannity school of proud ignorance.

I'm a registered Republican--but I can and do think--and have some knowledge of history. Perhaps that's the difference between us.

It's good to know that you recognize this--and therefore won't interpret this observation as pulling your string.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:27 AM

So You consider knowledge of the past and how it relates to the present Ignorance?

Please describe Naïveté. That is if it does not cause you undue stress.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:51 AM

Some people on this Thread were wanting to know how the Brits feel about their soldiers remaining in Iraq, on this mornings ITV News an ICM poll has 60% of Brits wanting out no matter what situation Iraq is in.
This blundering disaster perpertrated by a a US government with about as much planning and foresight as a herd of Lemmings, will finally end with Iraq more divided than it ever was and many thousands of innocents slaughtered,what a legacy for Bush, his string pullers and the goons who voted for them.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:14 AM

Today Reuters report that the majority of Britons feel their troops should be withdrawn from Iraq sooner rather than later, two opinion polls showed on Tuesday.

An ICM poll for the Guardian found more than 60 percent of Britons wanted the troops to be pulled out this year, while 45 percent believed the withdrawal should occur immediately.

Only 30 percent supported the stance of Prime Minister Tony Blair,
U.S. President George W. Bush's closest ally on Iraq, that British forces must stay until their Iraqi counterparts were able to provide security for the country on their own.

A Communicate Research poll for the Independent found 62 percent of Britons wanted the troops to be pulled out as soon as possible.

The poll showed 72 percent felt the Iraq war was "unwinnable". A similar number believed Iraq would slide into civil war if British and U.S. forces left.

Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih said in London on Monday the United States and Britain must not cut and run from Iraq.

"I think it would be ill-advised to do so," Salih told the BBC's Newsnight programme.

"Iraq is a pivotal state. It is in the heart of the Middle East and stability in Iraq is vital, not only to the people of Iraq but to the region and the world at large," he said.

Britain has 7,200 troops in Iraq, mainly in the south.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:33 AM

It is inevitable that at some point the USA (and the "coalition") will pull out and leave Iraq to its own devices, just as it was inevitable that it would pull out of Vietnam. It was predictable and predicted that it would end that way even before the invasion happened - just as it was predictable and predicted that the outcome of the invasion would be disastrous for Iraq.

After the USA pulls out, whenever that is, it is likely that things will be very bad indeed. But staying doesn't make that any less likely, it probably makes the outcome even worse.

The most likely end game (and the most hopeful of a very bad bunch of alternatives) would be be some kind of partition, possibly informal, with Iran having a sphere of influence in the Shi'ite South East, and Syria in the West, and the Kurdish North continuing to be effectively autonomous, by not officially independent. Maybe the Iranians and the Syrians might have a better chance of reducing the sectarian killings, and negotiating some kind of stand-off in the mixed areas.

The end result one way and another is probably going to be worse than it was before the invasion. Even for those who aren't among the hundreds of thousands dead.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:53 AM

Correction:

RD: So You consider knowledge of the past and how it relates to the present Ignorance?

Please describe Naïveté. That is if it does not cause you undue stress.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:11 AM

Didn't we have the same sort of mess in Bosnia with ethnic cleansing and all? What is the situation there now?
Water isn't the only thing that seeks its own level.

I believe that the UN needs to get off its ass and partition Iraq. It's going to happen anyway, why not now?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:11 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:12 AM

Well, well, well...

Bush at least knows how unpopular the Iraq war is because he has laid down the orders to all Repubs not to use the term "stay the course"...

But nuthin' else has changed... This is just a PR move as he and his buds try to repachakge the same ol' bad war...

BTW, Nixon didn't listen to the people either...

BTW, Part 2, WW II, for the record wasn't a civil war...

BTW, Part 3, seein' as the new buzz-word for Iraq is "victory" can anyone tell me exactly what "victory" would realistically look like in Iraq??? Yeah, it5's easy to say that victory would be a situation where a democratic Iraq had sufficiently trained folks to maintain it's own security but that dog don't hunt... I mean, lets get real here, folks... We are training folks and guess what these folks are doing with not only that training but the arms we are supplying these "trained" people???

Give up???

They're using this "training" and arms to conduct civil war, that's what they are doing with the "training"...

So, anyone want to venture a better guess what "victory" can possibly look like???

Dougie??? T-Bird??? Oldster???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:54 PM

I like ard mhaca`s , the trip to Iraq "had about as much planning and foresight as a herd of Lemmings", are those the little animals that run headlong over the cliffs, now that`s sure as hell an exact description.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:16 PM

Unfortunately these were killer lemmings.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:27 PM

What would "victory" really look like .... no one can give a specific answer cause no one knows.

What would it look like if the U.S. "cuts and runs" .... no one can give a specific answer cause no one knows.

So ... why not leave now ... stayed way beyond the welcoming.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:32 PM

"Death where is thy victory"

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:38 PM

"Cut and run" is one of the most idiotic phrases I ever heard.
It is THEIR country! They don't want us there! Our very presence there is making it much worse.
The only ones who want us there is the puppet government that we installed, and that is a damn small minority. They are bent on killing each other and our people keep getting in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: number 6
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:03 PM

"cut and run"

"It began in the 1700s as nautical shorthand for a swift retreat, a commander's order to slash his ship's anchor chain and outrace overwhelming enemy fire. Over centuries, as sailing ships gave way to ironclads, the phrase drifted to the linguistic backwater."

Doesn't matter whose backyard you went into to start a fight ... fast retreat, or getting the hell out of the fight you started is a "cut and run"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:58 PM

Discretion is still the better part of valor.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:28 PM

Victory's decription HAS been offered, to be fair -- a central Iraqi government controlling enough soldiers and policemen to suppress violence, and an elective bicameral representative government to manage the whole.

The problem is, as has been stated elsewhere, that the country comes from different roots than the U.S. does. Loyalties are not self, family and country in that order, as they often are for Americans. They are more like self, tribe, sect, family, period.

The tribal emphasis is the factionalizing element which makes the dynamics so different. They may seem like one people, or three, but in fact they are scores and each has a tightly bonded structure of loyalies, inherited bonds and inherited hatreds.

About which they are passionate.

If Rumsfeld or Rove or Dumb-YAhoo had bothered to study the ground they would have realized something about this dramatic and deep cultural difference and somehow accounted for it in their so-called planning. But they had no plan past toppling Baghdad.

Pffffffft.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:45 PM

"Iraq" was artificially cobbled together by Europeans. The Kurds, for one, never had the slightest desire to be part of it--their dream was always a Kurdistan.

The sectarian violence since the fall of Saddam, partly abetted by outsiders, but mostly homegrown, just feeds on itself--and is now complicated by feuds and turf battles between   Shiite fighters.

And the oil question is absolutely paramount--as I've said for many months--used to debate this with Teribus-- , the Sunnis cannot afford even a de facto, not de jure breakup of Iraq--they need to be guaranteed oil revenues from outside their region of Iraq.

But what exactly the "Coalition" can do to help solve any of this is questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:07 AM

And I understand that comparing Bush's policy in Iraq to lemming behavior is unfair to lemmings--they do not commit mass suicide--that's a misconception.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:47 AM

The possibility of partition of Iraq is being talked abour more and more these days. My own opinion, for what it's worth, has always been that Washington [as is] has all along tended to favour the Kurds in the North, and would look very kindly indeed on the formation of a Kurdish state encompassing the lion's share of the oil resource. That they haven' dared as yet to actively advocate this is--again in my humble opinion---wariness of the Turkish reaction as much as any increase in the violence now evident in Iraq. Just conjecture; time will tell if my suspicions are justified. Hope I'm 'way off the mark; there's enough excuse for mayhem in that unfortunate land as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:12 AM

I mentioned months ago that an unofficial Kurdistan is indeed a possible fallback position discussed by the US military--column in the Wall St Journal several months ago detailing that very idea.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:24 PM

Wouldn't John Wayne or Glenn Ford or Burt Lancaster or Sylvester Stallone or the governor of California or someone like them have sorted this out long ago?







   or am I missing something?


   I think we should be told.




    ivor

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:05 PM

a central Iraqi government controlling enough soldiers and policemen to suppress violence, and an elective bicameral representative government to manage the whole.

That's what existed before the invasion - of course the elections were a bit dodgy, and the elected representatives had learned to roll over and do whatever the executive wanted, but you could say the same of a lot of countries, including the main invaders.

My point is, that definition doesn't include anything about Iraq being a free society, or about it being friendly to the West and all that stuff.

The truth of it is, the outcome of this is either going to be a divided Iraq, with an Iranian and Syrian sphere of influence, and a quasi independent Kurdistan, with Turkey looming over it - or a new Saddam-style strong man holding the country down ruthlessly, with logistical backing by the USA.

Neither of those outcomes could properly be called any kind of "victory".

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:03 PM

A new Kurdistan is not gonna happen IMHO. Though if they weren't situated when the loin's share of the oil is it would've been a possibility. The US, has IMO, now intentions of walking away from all that oil but they don't know how to succeed if ataing their gouls (pun intended). They're now building a super Embassy to the tune of 570 million does that sound like we're going anywhere.       President Maliki, Tony Snow Bush's press secretary has said in not simple terms that he has 2 months to straighten out his country or else! Or else what.
"We ain't going no where" isn't that the Greatful Dead.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 11:44 PM

A "new Kurdistan" won't happen--officially. As McGrath points out, Turkey will never allow a de jure Kurdistan--their own Kurds would want to be part. Iran feels similarly.

But in fact a de facto "Kurdistan" already exists. If they don't declare independence, no problem. Also Turkey already gets oil from "Kurdistan".

But as I mentioned earlier, the Kurds already have oil contracts with foreign firms, without the Baghdad government's OK--and have even banned the Iraqi flag--only the Kurdish flag is allowed.

The status of Kirkuk--a particularly oil-rich area--has yet to be thrashed out. And that is and will be an especially controversial issue.

No way will there be another Saddam-like figure to take over all of "Iraq". As I said, even such a figure will never get the Kurdish north back. And he also would not get US support--the US has been supporting the Kurdish north for a long time--and plans to keep access to that oil, if the rest of Iraq is cut off from Western oil firms.

And anybody who thinks the US public would support yet another Iraq war just to keep the country together is living a dream--or nightmare.

As I said before, even the sheep-like US electorate is capable of learning--eventually. Fool me once, shame on you....

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:36 PM

>>So why does this government STILL not listen to its people ?<<

It does and without warrants.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM

"2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out"

Yeah. And you know what else? 997 out of every 1,000 Iraqis want them out too! Ha! Ha! Ook! Ook!

Man, it looks more like Vietnam every day to me. You don't really know what it's like till you're on the receivin' end yourself. Maybe Americans will someday learn the joy of bein' occupied by a foreign army too...like the Chinese. Think about it. Wouldn't you just love a few million Chinese soldiers garrisoned stateside, and drivin' down mainstreet in their tanks to provide "security".

Oh yeah. You'd love it, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Big Phil
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:54 PM

All troops out. NOW

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:57 PM

"2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out"

3 out of 3 American troops want out, too.