BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:58 PM

Discretion is still the better part of valor.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:28 PM

Victory's decription HAS been offered, to be fair -- a central Iraqi government controlling enough soldiers and policemen to suppress violence, and an elective bicameral representative government to manage the whole.

The problem is, as has been stated elsewhere, that the country comes from different roots than the U.S. does. Loyalties are not self, family and country in that order, as they often are for Americans. They are more like self, tribe, sect, family, period.

The tribal emphasis is the factionalizing element which makes the dynamics so different. They may seem like one people, or three, but in fact they are scores and each has a tightly bonded structure of loyalies, inherited bonds and inherited hatreds.

About which they are passionate.

If Rumsfeld or Rove or Dumb-YAhoo had bothered to study the ground they would have realized something about this dramatic and deep cultural difference and somehow accounted for it in their so-called planning. But they had no plan past toppling Baghdad.

Pffffffft.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:45 PM

"Iraq" was artificially cobbled together by Europeans. The Kurds, for one, never had the slightest desire to be part of it--their dream was always a Kurdistan.

The sectarian violence since the fall of Saddam, partly abetted by outsiders, but mostly homegrown, just feeds on itself--and is now complicated by feuds and turf battles between   Shiite fighters.

And the oil question is absolutely paramount--as I've said for many months--used to debate this with Teribus-- , the Sunnis cannot afford even a de facto, not de jure breakup of Iraq--they need to be guaranteed oil revenues from outside their region of Iraq.

But what exactly the "Coalition" can do to help solve any of this is questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:07 AM

And I understand that comparing Bush's policy in Iraq to lemming behavior is unfair to lemmings--they do not commit mass suicide--that's a misconception.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:47 AM

The possibility of partition of Iraq is being talked abour more and more these days. My own opinion, for what it's worth, has always been that Washington [as is] has all along tended to favour the Kurds in the North, and would look very kindly indeed on the formation of a Kurdish state encompassing the lion's share of the oil resource. That they haven' dared as yet to actively advocate this is--again in my humble opinion---wariness of the Turkish reaction as much as any increase in the violence now evident in Iraq. Just conjecture; time will tell if my suspicions are justified. Hope I'm 'way off the mark; there's enough excuse for mayhem in that unfortunate land as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:12 AM

I mentioned months ago that an unofficial Kurdistan is indeed a possible fallback position discussed by the US military--column in the Wall St Journal several months ago detailing that very idea.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:24 PM

Wouldn't John Wayne or Glenn Ford or Burt Lancaster or Sylvester Stallone or the governor of California or someone like them have sorted this out long ago?







   or am I missing something?


   I think we should be told.




    ivor

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:05 PM

a central Iraqi government controlling enough soldiers and policemen to suppress violence, and an elective bicameral representative government to manage the whole.

That's what existed before the invasion - of course the elections were a bit dodgy, and the elected representatives had learned to roll over and do whatever the executive wanted, but you could say the same of a lot of countries, including the main invaders.

My point is, that definition doesn't include anything about Iraq being a free society, or about it being friendly to the West and all that stuff.

The truth of it is, the outcome of this is either going to be a divided Iraq, with an Iranian and Syrian sphere of influence, and a quasi independent Kurdistan, with Turkey looming over it - or a new Saddam-style strong man holding the country down ruthlessly, with logistical backing by the USA.

Neither of those outcomes could properly be called any kind of "victory".

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:03 PM

A new Kurdistan is not gonna happen IMHO. Though if they weren't situated when the loin's share of the oil is it would've been a possibility. The US, has IMO, now intentions of walking away from all that oil but they don't know how to succeed if ataing their gouls (pun intended). They're now building a super Embassy to the tune of 570 million does that sound like we're going anywhere.       President Maliki, Tony Snow Bush's press secretary has said in not simple terms that he has 2 months to straighten out his country or else! Or else what.
"We ain't going no where" isn't that the Greatful Dead.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 11:44 PM

A "new Kurdistan" won't happen--officially. As McGrath points out, Turkey will never allow a de jure Kurdistan--their own Kurds would want to be part. Iran feels similarly.

But in fact a de facto "Kurdistan" already exists. If they don't declare independence, no problem. Also Turkey already gets oil from "Kurdistan".

But as I mentioned earlier, the Kurds already have oil contracts with foreign firms, without the Baghdad government's OK--and have even banned the Iraqi flag--only the Kurdish flag is allowed.

The status of Kirkuk--a particularly oil-rich area--has yet to be thrashed out. And that is and will be an especially controversial issue.

No way will there be another Saddam-like figure to take over all of "Iraq". As I said, even such a figure will never get the Kurdish north back. And he also would not get US support--the US has been supporting the Kurdish north for a long time--and plans to keep access to that oil, if the rest of Iraq is cut off from Western oil firms.

And anybody who thinks the US public would support yet another Iraq war just to keep the country together is living a dream--or nightmare.

As I said before, even the sheep-like US electorate is capable of learning--eventually. Fool me once, shame on you....

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:36 PM

>>So why does this government STILL not listen to its people ?<<

It does and without warrants.

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM

"2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out"

Yeah. And you know what else? 997 out of every 1,000 Iraqis want them out too! Ha! Ha! Ook! Ook!

Man, it looks more like Vietnam every day to me. You don't really know what it's like till you're on the receivin' end yourself. Maybe Americans will someday learn the joy of bein' occupied by a foreign army too...like the Chinese. Think about it. Wouldn't you just love a few million Chinese soldiers garrisoned stateside, and drivin' down mainstreet in their tanks to provide "security".

Oh yeah. You'd love it, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Big Phil
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:54 PM

All troops out. NOW

Subject: RE: BS: 2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:57 PM

"2 Out of 3 Americans Want troops out"

3 out of 3 American troops want out, too.