BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites

Subject: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Alison M
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 08:11 AM

I just wanted to ask others their opinions about Loyalist Websites. I have read some Republican Websites, which explains about their history of their struggle for independence, etc. and it is mainly about their side of the fence. When I read Loyalist Websites they too explain their version of Ulster history and about themselves, but they add all this hatred towards Catholics, Nationalists, Republicans, Sinn Fein, all IRA's to their Website too. Then they wonder why republican supporters leave unfriendly messages in their guestbooks. The point I am trying to make here is why are they the Loyalists so anti the other side of the fence to them? Both sides have many victims due to the troubles in the North of Ireland and throwing hatred towards the other side all the time does not help any victims at all, it just holds on to the past hatred. Ireland needs to move forward towards peace for the sake of the children that will be living there in years to come. Loyalists claim they want peace, but they don't show it through their Websites. I have not found a Republican Website out there that is anti Loyalist, anti Unionist, or anti Protestant. I am not trying to cause an argument here, but it is a question I ask my self many times about Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:33 AM

Alison, I will try to answer your questions the best I can. There are many loyalist/republican websites out there offering a history and understanding of their tradition. I feel everyone is entitled to celebrate their tradition and such websites should do so in an informed manner without insult.

As a republican I was once asked on this site my opinion on Ian Paisley of the DUP. I repeat, I may not share his views, but I respect him. He is the leader of the largest unionist party over here and the leader of a church with enormous following, you cannot dismiss the fact that the man has charisma to those that follow him. Republicans may not like me saying that, but is this not true ?


There was a lot of suffering for both Communities, neither of us hold an monopoly on this. A mother does not bring up a son to kill or be killed, yet many mothers became victims of the troubles. I lost many friends and family during these years and my pain was exactly the same as for someone in the loyalist community.

You say that "loyalists are so anti the other side of the fence", you will always find extremists in both communities. I have many friends in the loyalist community who wish to remain British. They know and accept that I as a republican and want a united Ireland. No one has the right to say which one of us is wrong. If we can accept eachothers views, that is enough for me.


Having lived through the troubles and saw more than I care to recall here, the one thing we all have to do is ensure that it does not happen again. There is a new generation growing up in Ireland that deserves a better future and whatever their political views will be, none of us have the right to brainwash them, inform them of their history yes, but not to tell them who was right and who was wrong.


We could export hate from here we have that much of it. As I stated before, I regret any loss of live and my advice to you is, if you come across any site promoting hate, get off it.

Let's give the talking around a table a go.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:53 AM

Good post DS.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:59 AM

I suppose if you call absolute bigotry charisma he has it in great quantities like manure.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Keith.
Guest, every section of our society is entitled to leadership and representation. As I said the man would have no time for me or my views, but we cannot ignore the votes that he got at the last election.
There are many within the loyalist community who dislike Sinn Fein as a party, but when the Assembly was up and running I attended many events and the speakers were, Minister for Education Martin McGuinness and Minister for Health Barbara de Brun. Many found that hard to accept, but they accepted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:58 PM

The new assembly [at this moment the delegates are having billions waved at them in the hope that they will comply] if it ever gets off the ground will be a two minute wonder, picture Adams and Paisley debating a contentious issuse, it is beyond anyone`s imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 02:15 PM

All parties are sitting tonight with the Chancellor asking for 50 billion for regeneration in the North. Yes that's 50 billion over 10 years. Last night was Hallowen and children were knocking doors saying gimme, gimme. I see no difference in tonights meeting. I would give nothing to them until they sat down and agreed that young families over here with mortgages, car loans and all the other headaches deserve better than a promise of a future.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:40 PM

I suppose at least those guys don't have to wear masks - I'm not sure I'd open my door to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM

Has anyone any conception of the bigotry associated with Paisleys party, well before the present troubles this man was ranting and raving, he was one of the main players in the present troubles, give him credit?, for what, this man is evil pesonified.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

Guest please understand I am not a fan of the man. I am not out to give him credit. I am aware more than most of the remarks he made over the years.
His insults to catholics, nationalists and republicans over the past forty years can never and will never be forgotten. I am also realistic enough to know he speaks for 34% of the electorate in the North of Ireland. We cannot ignore that, much as I would like to !

As a republican I am non-sectarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 02:19 AM

"I would give nothing to them until they sat down and agreed that young families over here with mortgages, car loans and all the other headaches deserve better than a promise of a future."

Very, very well said Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 02:37 AM

Probably worth remembering, Paisley's not too keen on us English either. We're the swines who sold him out.

If only, we'd got a better price....

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 02:43 AM

Being from Belfast myself and growing up close to a Loyalist area. their bigotry is misunderstood. Their bigotry is not directed against catholics because of our religious beliefs but for what we represent
Many loyalist were brought up to believe that all Catholics were nationalists and as such all were a threat to the existence of the 6 counties. Throughout the years they felt and were taught( not all of them by the way) that if they did not employ catholics then these catholics would have to leave to find employment, thus keeping their numbers down. Catholics were seen as a force that would one day unite the country and this mistrust has been kindled by loyalist leaders for generations. I guarantee that if you ask a loyalist what the word " Catholic" means that 90% could not answer. I pity them because of what they have been taught by parents, grandparents etc. Now they see their numbers dwindling and they are in a panic situation, they somehow feel that they will be expelled from the country when unification comes. They somehow feel that so long as thay keep this bigotry and mistrust alive then the situation will never change. Many are afraid of a new generation of loyalists getting to know their nationalist neighbours and discovering that there is really nothing to fear and a united country would not be the hell that they have been brainwashed into believing. Brainwashed by people like Paisley who is the most bigoted person on this planet. The only good thing about his big mouth is that we always knew what he had in mind. Many others are not as vocal but just as bigoted but they work on the sly and are really more dangerous than Paisley. D.S. states that Paisley represents 34% of the electorate which is true but there is still 66% that he does not represent. Loyalist bigotry so not so much a religious bigotry as it is a political bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:48 AM

Thank you for that Teribus.
Jimmy C has sumed it up well here. Recently the electoral office sent out new forms for people wishing to register to vote. They revealed that the number of completed forms they received this year has been a lot lower than previous. I do hope all political parties get this message, people are simply fed up with all of them. One day it's on the next day it's off.

This is the breakdown as I see it on the ground.
Paisleys DUP initially told their electorate they would only go into the assembly to wreck it. So they have moved on a little. Their wish list of demands is growing by the day, this is stalling for time in my opinion.

Sinn Fein got the guns off the PIRA, got them to disband and end punishment beatings. All on the promise that a bright new future lay ahead. The government asked Chris Patton to compile a report on the changes needed in policing. There are still a lot of the recommendations the government accepted to be implemented. Sinn Fein are finding this hard to sell this to it's electorate.
Sinn Fein will join the policing board with or without all the changes in place.

As for Loyalists, their focus seemed more towards European immigrants than republicans at the moment. Their groups remain armed and their organisations intact. No pressure being put on them to disband.

The largest group over here is the man or woman in the street. They care more about what is going on in their lives right now than over paid politicans doing sod all for their wages.

There is a simple way to resolve all of this. Give all parties notice that the doors to local government will be open on the 1st of January 2007. Any party wishing to take part can do so. It will initially be chaired by both governments just to get it off the ground. Those who do not wish to attend can collect their P45.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Den
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:31 AM

We seem to be drifting a tad from the main theme of this thread but then when has that ever happened on threads pertaining to NI. I think that loyalists, and they represent a percentage of protestant people in NI, have always lived with a siege mentality, what we have we hold at any cost. Anyone who disagreed with this credo was seen as the enemy and for years that enemy was the nationalist and republican populace of NI now it seems that foriegn nationalists are becoming the new enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:33 AM

Your right Den. We are not really answering the question Alison asked of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 03:45 PM

Nevertheless, a very good & interesting thread.

...& no I can't help answer Alisons question either!

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 03:55 PM

Few of us Paul have the answers about anything over here !

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Nov 06 - 04:04 PM

True, Divis, but I applaud the progress that has been made.

As I've said before, I'm of an age where I have witnessed the troubles from 1969, albeit from the sidelines, & didnt expect, until the last few years, to see any kind of 'resolution', if I can call it that, in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM

I think the observation is correct. I once have posted a similar observation about republican and loyalist songs, namely that (on the whole, not in each instance) the loyalists songs are more hateful than the republican songs.

I'd like to speculate now, in a more general way, why this may happen (not only in Northern Ireland, but in all places where there is a deep inequality between two groups of people. My speculation goes like this (commentaries asnd counterexamples invited):

The underprivileged (minorities mostly, but not necessarily, see SA) want to have the same rights and life chances and such a demand is so modest that singing (or writing) about it is an easy task and needs no hate propaganda about the other (privileged) group.

To write propaganda for the priviliged group is a much more demanding task. To say simply, we want everything to go our way like it always was so far, may be very close to the truth but just does not go down well with more neutral observers. There is a dearth of possible general human rights arguments (no one may ever lose a privileged and not earned position for instance?). So what can you talk about? There's always the last resort possibility to paint them as subhuman, devils, murderous bastards which (implicitely) makes the point that they may not be awarded with the full range of rights and chances.

That's a bit like with (real) criminals: They lose some rights like the right to vote, or the right to some offices, and no one thinks that's unfair for they deserve to be treated this way. To paint a whole group as criminals and to be hated subhumans tries to make it understandable (mostly to the own ingroup) that these brutes just may not be trusted with full rights and equal treatment.

Perhaps that's why there are so few if any good songs supporting the privileged against the onslaught of the wild. It is so damn difficult to argue in a convincing way against basic human rights like equal treatment.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Loyalist and Republican Websites
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:35 AM

Perhaps what's needed is a Mandela-style peace and reconciliation process- to admit that many people did things that we see as wrong, but they had (their own) reasons to see as justified at the time. To tell it openly, perhaps to explain (not justify) what they did. And then, for those who co-operate, amnesty and putting those things behind us.

I would be interested to see who took up the challenge.