Cerne Abbas

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Bert
Date: 16 Mar 99 - 12:42 PM

"How is a Mudcateer equipped?" I would mention a song but Barbara would scold me.

Max is currently working on a program that will allow us to cross reference threads. It is going to take a lot of work so don't expect anything too soon.

The reason I say this is because I've got about three threads mixed up in my mind here. This one, The Peasant's Revolt talk weve been having and the Food Songs thread.
On the road from London to Southend, just past Rayleigh, there is a hill called 'Bread and Cheese Hill'.
There are two theories as to the origin of the name.
One: it was named from the hawthorn trees that grow there. 'Bread and cheese' being a folk name for the hawthorn tree. Children in England eat the young leaves.

Two: It was named during the Peasant's revolt. The serfs, whose working conditions were deteriorating, put some of the blame on the Flemish weavers. (The immigrants are taking all the best jobs)
Supposedly, they set up a checkpoint there and made everyone who wanted to pass say 'bread and cheese'. If they pronounced it correctly they could go, but if they said 'brot und chiss' they would be killed on the spot.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Penny
Date: 15 Mar 99 - 03:49 AM

Yup. Don't know how much credence to place on it, though. The geometry is a good match. But then, if they are looked at from the point of the local lay of the land, they lie where they need to from the point of view of lying along the scarp. Like British barrows. But that could be a convenient coincidence allowing a stellar plan. The program I saw had found other pyramids matching two other stars of Orion, but not the brightest. I would be FULLY convinced if something turned up where the sword should be, or Sirius. Mind you, it does seem a lot of effort for a planetarium!

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 09:44 PM

It would certainly reduce their enemies to a state of envy! There must be a connection with fertility ritual that justifies the Giants most prominent feature.Is the figure of Hercules associated with fertility in addition to his other heroic attributes? Maybe Penny knows this.

Also, to Penny...are you familiar with a current theory that holds that the chain of three Great Pyramids in Giza is a duplication of the Orion belt configuration? And that the Sphinx indicates the rising point of the Leo constellation?

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Indy Lass
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 09:16 PM

Having read some of Morgan Llywelyn's books, the image reminds me of the way she described the Celts (of antiquity) in full-battle "tilt." This would have been how they would "dress" themselves to intimidate their enemies.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Penny
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 07:37 PM

Back to Cerne - I can't help thinking that if it were of 16th, 17th or 18th century origin, there would be a folk song about it, with a cleaned up version in the National Song Book, and Mudcat discussions about the sources for older words closer to the original. For there to be silence argues the sort of cover-up Nixon could only dream of. One thing that was clear from reading up the Peasant's Revolt was the level of communication in 1381, among a population depleted from the Black Death, and it wouldn't have been less when the population rose again. Can't you imagine the young farmers on market day, saying to their mates from the other side of the market town "You'll never guess what we've been and done"? Something along the lines of the Derby Ram, I would imagine coming out of it.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Penny
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 07:25 PM

You wouldn't believe the error margin on the globe I've got, but thanks for the bibliography.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 12:34 PM

Hi Penny,

Since you asked, great circle plotting is no more than translating global curvature to flat maps and since you are using a globe, you basically have the "circle" already. Also, a lot of modern charts are drawn compensated for curvature ( and believe me it pays to check which you're using first!!!) to simplify waypoint plotting.

If you're interested in celestial navigation, there are 2 books almost every sailor owns that are the bibles: Dutton's "Celestial Navigation" and Chapman's "Piloting and Navigation." I'm sure both are in any reasonable library.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Penny
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 09:34 AM

PLEASE don't get me wrong: this is not a matter of being offended, just something I do not choose to participate in, for number of reasons. Get on with your own sense of humour, which I know is a major strand in folk, don't mind me, just don't expect me to join in.

There's a discussion of Cerne as being early in Stonehenge, Neolithic Man and the Cosmos, by John North, Harper Collins, 1996. He gives a thirteenth century reference to a god Helith in the vicinity and cites Stuart Piggot for a Roman origin. Some of his arguments seem a little laboured, and I think his attempt to relate the gradient of the hill slopes of chalk figures as a marker of the identity of the designers ignores the way that slopes form in a common material.

If it was cut recently, and I don't discount this, it might be an idea to investigate the sort of people who were the major landowner in the area during the suspect period, and see if any of them were likely to do such a thing. Someone like that mad Sussex man Jack (whose surname I forget, who was forever building follies and buried standing), with an interest in antiquities and a Helllfire Club sort of sense of humour. Although the obvious references to it are recent, they are of it pre-existing, not of its having appeared, and it's hard to believe no-one would have commented on it, or a later generation, knowing its origins, feeling it fair game for destruction. You might expect the local Methodists or other Non-Conformists to have very strong opinions about it, if it were new. Those sort of churches have meetings with minutes, often now in county archives. I agree on the crudeness. It certainly doesn't have the same sort of artistic sense as Uffington, or the technical drawing skill of Wilmington.

catspaw49, you know about celestial navigation? So presumably spherical geometry and great circles? I read recently that if a line was projected from the Great Pyramid from its SE to NW diagonal on across the globe, it would arrive at Stonehenge. I just had to try it out with a bit of string and a globe, which put it in the general area, but also disclosed some very interesting geological patterns both SE of Egypt and on the way the Britain, which could be even more interesting if followed into the Atlantic, which I couldn't do. Where could I find out how to calculate a great circle? Or what do you think?

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 05:10 AM

From me too......Thank you Penny, I believe you'll fit right in around here.

I've been sailing for 40+ years and celestial navigation was fun to learn,,,BUT...I must confess that never in my life have I been able to see ANYTHING in the stars. I've a good imagination, but truthfully I can only identify things up there from memory and not because it looks like a swan, bear, archer, or whatever. If you pointed out a star pattern and told me it was Hermie the Bagelmaker, I'd just file it away. Always wished I could see that stuff, but.............

Now the Big Schlong etching I can see...but as I know Penny, you are often offended by my sense of humor, I'll belay all comment this time as a special "Welcome to Mudcat" dispensation......You could start a thread though to compliment all the other Mudcateer personal info threads..."How is a Mudcateer equipped?" Male or Female, it would be ..........OOPS, Sorry, I was about to get started there......

catspaw, the Pure of Thought

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 04:36 AM

Thank you for all this Penny, it has all been thought prevoking, which is one of the reasons The Mudcat is so attractive to me. A very warm welcome to you.

I only live a few miles away from the giant and having seen it often am not convinced of it's antiquity. If you compare it to the Uffington cutting, which is a wonderful design, the giant just seems very crude and I don't mean just the phallus.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Penny
Date: 14 Mar 99 - 03:47 AM

There's an idea that the old chalk figures were representations of constellations, possibly related to their position in the sky at certain times. The identifications I've seen are that "The Long Man of Wilmington" is Orion, Uffington is Taurus, and Cerne is Hercules. The trouble with this is that it's not easy to be sure that our ancestors saw the sky in the same way as we do, or that the people of these islands used the same interpretations as the Middle East. If they do represent star patterns, they are more likely to be obvious ones. The only one I'm convinced by is Wilmington, which has the geometry of the central seven stars of Orion. Given that Uffington is in an area long associated with horse rearing, and that Taurus faces the opposite way and is the wrong shape, the identification seems forced. Bulls, I would expect to be shown as more bulky, less speedy. If you look at star maps, you might find that Virgo looks more like the Horse, and it is possible to map the two roughly together. The Celtic goddess Epona had an equine manifestation, so such an identification is not wholly impossible. My mother objected to Orion for Wilmington, on the grounds that it had no sword. This is not an objection that could be raised in the case of Cerne, which is more like the geometry of the extended Orion than that of Hercules, in any case a faint constellation, especially if that object in his left hand is included. Just because the Romans thought that the figure resembled Hercules, doesn't mean that that was an earlier astronomical identity, if ther was one. I gather that morris is danced there on May Day. This is, interestingly, about the time when Orion sets just after sunset, the time when it ceases to be visible at all, & could be seen as going to the underworld. He reappears in the morning sky in August, appropriate for a god of vegetation. I'm not being precise, but it still works in the past with regard to harvests.(When I saw the Egyptian identification with Osiris, and how they saw the sword, I thought that it was a nice resonance with reality, where the sword is the seedbed of new stars.) These are only my ideas, by the way, though an astronomer friend regards them as being within the bounds of possibility. Nothing like this can be proved one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 11:24 PM

Yeah sounds kida familiar - not been out there for a looong time - somehow I think the Cerne thing is way older than Roman. Still have to ask Penny bout it - has the books and libraries there I don't any here. Nonetheless a very interesting subject.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 10:59 PM

jo77..I realize the discussion was clearly around chalk figures, and not directed toward the realm of the naughty.Penny has made her feelings clear in that regard, and I was merely, as they say, joshin' her.

The history of the figure is somewhat unclear. Some claim that it was the image of a rather disreputable local clergyman who was forced to vacate the area, and that the figure depicts him hitting the road. There is also a strong argument that the figure is of Romano-British origin, and depicts Hercules holding a club in his right hand, with a rabbit (now covered with turf) in his left. Excavation of the figure along with aerial photographs seem to uphold the second theory. The Uffington White Horse seems to be of greater antiquity, a similar image being found on pre-roman celtic coins...LEJ

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 05:50 PM

Yes, but pulease note we were talking about 'chalk' sites in that case - the Uffington White Horse Oxfordshire.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 05:39 PM

Hey jo77...did Penny really bring up the Cerne Abbas Giant?Well...Goodness Gracious!! One of my favorite sites in England, actually. I really enjoyed watching the faces of the elderly tourists as they stopped to take a gander. "Oh, my, Reginald! Beastly impressive, isn't it!"

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 03:57 PM

For an view of the offending member, Click Here

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 03:42 PM

Used live near by - lots of witches used to hang out in that place. It was wild in those days - all kinds of interesting people - artists writers muscians and poets etc., The locals made it pay too (LOL) I cannot here list all the links but there are connections to very strange phenomena as well. See Art Bell's site.

Subject: RE: Cerne Abbas
From: Philippa
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 03:31 PM

I read that a couple who had had difficulties conceiving made love on the giant's phallus and succeeded in reproducing. English National Heritage was worried that others might follow suit. Certainly song material.

Subject: Cerne Abbas
From: j0_77
Date: 13 Mar 99 - 03:09 PM

See English Folk Songs Yes Miss Penny I have been there and seen 'it'. The size is enormous - LOL But there are real people out there with this irregularity. I shudder to think what that may 'really' mean. A great a possibly funny topic. :)