BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

I thought that had effectively always been the case anyway. DNA testing is apparently more precise than blood testing. However, for some time now, blood tests have been able to ascertain that in many cases, men could not have been the father.
I think it would indeed be in the interests of some children if some women could demand DNA testing. I still feel pretty uneasy about men being allowed to evade their responsibilities, whether they are the biological fathers or not, just because a DNA test ruled them out of being the biological father. If three men sleep with a woman within a certain time span, none of them has the right to choose whether to be a father or not - especially if they have not used a condom. In those cases, the woman is the most likely to be able to assess who should be the father. The rights of the child and of the mother should always come before those of the man - whether he is the putative father or the biological one.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:56 PM

If three men sleep with a woman within a certain time span, none of them has the right to choose whether to be a father or not - especially if they have not used a condom. In those cases, the woman is the most likely to be able to assess who should be the father.

Are you really saying that if a woman has sex with 3 men in one night and becomes pregnant as a result, she can choose which one of the men is the father, regardless of who is actually the father?

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

It deprives the real father of his parenting rights, for one thing. It also creates a motivation on the part of the woman to go trolling for rich men to provide for a baby that may or may not be theirs. How about when a gas station is robbed we round up everybody who stopped in to buy gas and arrest one of them for the robbery? Same logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:05 PM

Er Jeff, are you suggesting that the men do not have the option of confining Percy to his trousers?

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:17 PM

Robbing a gas station is not the same as stopping in to buy gas. There's no equivalent difference between the actions of the three men in the other case.

The significant persion is the child, not any of the adults involved. At this stage the mother is the person who has to stand in for the child. Perhaps she picks out what seems like the best father for the child, perhaps she insists on DNA test to identify the biological father. I think that should be her decision.

People have to live with the consequences of their actions and their inactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

I'm stating, not suggesting, that only one is the father. This can be easily determined by DNA testing. To do otherwise is to deprive the child of his or her natural father and also to deprive the natural father of the filial relationship that both deserve. That is an insult to all children and parents. You might as well say that if a man sleeps with three women in the same night and one of them gets pregnant, he should be able to choose which one should raise the child.

Also, does the fertility status of the putative father enter into it?

Your argument is so ridiculous as to not deserve consideration. Just choose one of the likely suspects and let him pay for it all, regardless of the actual paternity. You're disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:07 PM

When the first man carries a child in his body for nine months, I guess he will get a different take on it. If you are going to sleep with women, especially without using a condom, you should accept the fact that you can become a father. Anything less is simply irresponsible. With respect Jeff, if the men are not committed, I feel strongly that the woman is entitled to pick the one whom she thinks is the best bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

alanabit has just written pretty well what I would have.

I think that mechanically transposing rights and obligations between fathers and mothers in this kind of situation is wrong. As alanabit pointed out, men don't get pregnant, carry babies within them, and give birth. That's a significant difference.

I note this time jeffp mentioned the right of a child to know her or his father, and that's a real right, I accept; but I think it's not a right which necessarily overrules everything at all stages of life. If a mother in this situation were to decide that one man would make a terrible father and another would be far better, I wouldn't be inclined to blame her for picking the more suitable one, and dispensing with the tests that would prove things one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:46 PM

The alanabit/McGrath idea makes no sense to me and is I think impractical. Here's why:

If I* was one of several men having slept with a woman who became pregnant and she'd choose me as the "father" what would stop me from saying she has only invented our making love for the sake of my better job than the other guys. Usually man and woman are alone and without witnesses when they make love. It would be her word against mine and since she has a lot to win her motives may be in doubt. Any judge would opt for a paternity test and this way I'd get what I did wanted in the first place: a chance not to pay. That's why this idea never can work.

I*: not me personally. I've longed to be a father for so long that I'd been glad about any such offer to play "father".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: jeffp
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:41 PM

You get to do the time whether or not you do the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Surrepetitious paternity tests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM

Wolfgang - you have actually demonstrated why it actually might work out quite well.

The likelihood is that the person who wanted to be a father would be the right father, while the person who didn't would be the wrong father, regardless of the biological facts.

I seem to remember an analogous reworking of Solomon's judgement in a Bertolt Brecht Play.
.................
I don't think we should get too hot and bothered about a case like this - what is something described as "a Spanish Case".