 sj |
||
|
||
BS: The more things change...
|
|
|
Subject: BS: The more things chenge... From: dick greenhaus Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:34 PM Mesopotamia (1917) - Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936) THEY shall not return to us, the resolute, the young The eager and whole-hearted whom we gave: But the men who left them thriftily to die in their own dung, Shall they come with years and honour to the grave? They shall not return to us, the strong men coldly slain In sight of help denied from day to day: But the men who edged their agonies and chid them in their pain, Are they too strong and wise to put away? Our dead shall not return to us while Day and Night divide- Never while the bars of sunset hold. But the idle-minded overlings who quibbled while they died, Shall they thrust for high employments as of old? Shall we only threaten and be angry for an hour? When the storm is ended shall we find How softly but how swiftly they have sidled back to power By the favour and contrivance of their kind? Even while they soothe us, while they promise large amends, Even while they make a show of fear, Do they call upon their debtors, and take council with their friends, To confirm and re-establish each career? Their lives cannot repay us-their death could not undo- The shame that they have laid upon our race. But the slothfulness that wasted and the arrogance that slew, Shall we leave it unabated in its place? _______________ Rudyard Kipling wrote Mesopotamia in 1917. By the time Great Britain's disastrous foray into Iraq during WWI was over, at least 31,000 British and Indians were buried in the sands of Iraq. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things chenge... From: Bunnahabhain Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:48 PM His writings about Afganistan, and what would have been described at the the time as the lawless North-West frontier, are scarcely more hopefull. War will exist so long as those who start wars do not have to fight them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things chenge... From: akenaton Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:18 PM Cheer up lads ...Teribus reckons we are not at war at all in Iraq, but simply there as guests of the democratic govt So thats all right then!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Teribus Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:21 PM Taken from UN Security Council Resolution 1723 (2006) which extends the UN Mandate governing deployment of MNF troops in Iraq from 31 December, 2006 until 31 December, 2007: "Recognizing the request conveyed in the letter of 11 November 2006 from the Prime Minister of Iraq to the President of the Council, which is annexed to this resolution, to retain the presence of the multinational force in Iraq, and affirming the common goals therein: Iraqi assumption of recruiting, training, equipping, and arming of the Iraqi Security Forces; Iraqi assumption of command and control over Iraqi forces; and the transfer of responsibility for security to the Government of Iraq, "Recognizing the importance of consent of the sovereign Government of Iraq for the presence of the multinational force and of close coordination and partnership between the multinational force and that Government, "Welcoming the willingness of the multinational force to continue efforts to contribute to the maintenance of security and stability in Iraq, including participating in the provision of humanitarian and reconstruction assistance, as described in the letter of 17 November 2006 from the United States Secretary of State to the President of the Council, which is annexed to this resolution," Akenaton nowhere in the above does it state that MNF are "at war" with anyone. It does however state clearly what the MNF troops are there to do. The above took about 13 minutes to get passed in the relevant session of the Security Council. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: frogprince Date: 30 Nov 06 - 10:55 PM Holy Mother of All B.S., Teribus really, honest to gawd is arguing that we're not at war over there. I haven't understood Bush to say that, for all the mindless comments and outright lies he has piled up. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: frogprince Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:03 PM I've appreciated Kipling as a terrific, and insightful, storyteller, but I don't think I've read "Mesoptamia", or realized just how much of a prophet he really was. (Not speaking of psychic or religious hocus-pocus, but of a prophet as one who stands up to tell the absolute truth.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:18 AM Just to Kipple a bit more: The Young British Soldier When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East 'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast, An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier. Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, So-oldier _of_ the Queen! Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day, You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay, An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may: A soldier what's fit for a soldier. Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . . First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts, For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts -- Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts -- An' it's bad for the young British soldier. Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . . When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt -- Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout, For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out, A' it crumples the young British soldier. Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . . But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead: You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said: If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead, An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier. Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . . If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind, Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind; Be handy and civil, and then you will find That it's beer for the young British soldier. Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . . Now, if you must marry, take care she is old -- A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told, For beauty won't help if your rations is cold, Nor love ain't enough for a soldier. 'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . . If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! -- Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both, An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier. Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . . When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck, Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck, Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck And march to your front like a soldier. Front, front, front like a soldier . . . When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch, Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch; She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich, An' she'll fight for the young British soldier. Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . . When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine, The guns o' the enemy wheel into line, Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine, For noise never startles the soldier. Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . . If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white, Remember it's ruin to run from a fight: So take open order, lie down, and sit tight, And wait for supports like a soldier. Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . . When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, So-oldier _of_ the Queen! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: frogprince Date: 01 Dec 06 - 01:43 AM He romanticizes soldering a little too much, though... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:04 AM If only Kipling had come round to the idea that war is a terrible thing BEFORE his son was killed in WWI, other people's sons might have been less enthused by his poems glorifying soldiering. If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: John O'L Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:07 AM "...the request conveyed in the letter of 11 November 2006 from the Prime Minister of Iraq to the President of the Council... to retain the presence of the multinational force in Iraq..." "Retain"? What would such a force be doing there I wonder? "...the common goals...: Iraqi assumption of recruiting, training, equipping, and arming of the Iraqi Security Forces; Iraqi assumption of command and control over Iraqi forces; and the transfer of responsibility for security to the Government of Iraq,...close coordination and partnership between the multinational force and that Government,...to contribute to the maintenance of security and stability in Iraq, including participating in the provision of humanitarian and reconstruction assistance..." The words "at war" are not used, but the words that are used are descriptive of nothing else. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:00 AM Teribus and his imaginary friend can be a bit of a worry at times... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Teribus Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:18 AM OK then folks so who are the troops of the MNF "at war" with in Iraq. Or is what they have been doing since the fall of Saddam and the election of a sovereign Iraqi Government part of the ongoing "war on terror"? Think about it - there is one hell of a difference. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,memyself Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM "He romanticizes soldering a little too much, though... " Was that your impression from these two poems? You must be a pretty hard case! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: frogprince Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:40 AM Sorry, memyself; you haven't had much chance to catch onto my tendency to sarcasm yet. Kipling, of course, stands out for his scathingly effective de-romanticizing of military life. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,memyself Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM frogrpince - Isn't it annoying when you're being ironic and someone takes you literally? Kind of like rain on your wedding day or something. Okay, I'm going off to give myself a military-style flogging ... Oh, on the other hand, Kipling does make being raised by wolves seem very romantic indeed! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,KB Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:07 PM Terror is not an enemy, it is a tactic. We are not at war with terror. I seem to remember that when the MNF went into Iraq the UN was not all that keen on the idea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:22 PM Just remember, my friends and fellow Americans: we have nothing to hide but hide itself. Dr. Jekyll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Bill D Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:31 PM Soldier, Soldier "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, Why don't you march with my true love?" "We're fresh from off the ship an' 'e's maybe give the slip, An' you'd best go look for a new love." New love! True love! Best go look for a new love, The dead they cannot rise, an' you'd better dry your eyes, An' you'd best go look for a new love. "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, What did you see o' my true love?" "I seed 'im serve the Queen in a suit o' rifle-green, An' you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, Did ye see no more o' my true love?" "I seed 'im runnin' by when the shots begun to fly -- But you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, Did aught take 'arm to my true love?" "I couldn't see the fight, for the smoke it lay so white -- An' you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, I'll up an' tend to my true love!" "'E's lying on the dead with a bullet through 'is 'ead, An' you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, I'll down an' die with my true love!" "The pit we dug'll 'ide 'im an' the twenty men beside 'im -- An' you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, Do you bring no sign from my true love?" "I bring a lock of 'air that 'e allus used to wear, An' you'd best go look for a new love." "Soldier, soldier come from the wars, O then I know it's true I've lost my true love!" "An' I tell you truth again -- when you've lost the feel o' pain You'd best take me for your true love." True love! New love! Best take 'im for a new love, The dead they cannot rise, an' you'd better dry your eyes, An' you'd best take 'im for your true love. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Ebbie Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM The 'retaining' forces have lost more than 3,000 fine young men and women over there. To traffic accidents, I think they said. Fender benders. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,KB Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM There was a fellow who lived on the edge of town, I drive past the house regularly. The flag is still at half-mast. He taught Tae Kwon Do in town. His daughter just graduated from High School, she was the County Fair Queen the summer before last. His son is in High School now. I didn't know him but I know a lot of poeple who did. He was a helicopter pilot who stayed with his craft and was credited with saving several lives for doing so. Cost him his own. A 23 year old from a town about 20 miles from here was killed in action on the 21st of November. My sister-in-law taught High Scool there for a couple years but she didn't know this young man. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM And while we're at it (ca 1931) i sing of Olaf glad and big by E. E. Cummings XXX i sing of Olaf glad and big whose warmest heart recoiled at war: a conscientious object-or his wellbelovéd colonel(trig westpointer most succinctly bred) took erring Olaf soon in hand; but--though an host of overjoyed noncoms(first knocking on the head him)do through icy waters roll that helplessness which others stroke with brushes recently employed anent this muddy toiletbowl, while kindred intellects evoke allegiance per blunt instruments-- Olaf(being to all intents a corpse and wanting any rag upon what God unto him gave) responds,without getting annoyed "I will not kiss your fucking flag" straightway the silver bird looked grave (departing hurriedly to shave) but--though all kinds of officers (a yearning nation's blueeyed pride) their passive prey did kick and curse until for wear their clarion voices and boots were much the worse, and egged the firstclassprivates on his rectum wickedly to tease by means of skilfully applied bayonets roasted hot with heat-- Olaf(upon what were once knees) does almost ceaselessly repeat "there is some shit I will not eat" our president,being of which assertions duly notified threw the yellowsonofabitch into a dungeon,where he died Christ(of His mercy infinite) i pray to see;and Olaf,too preponderatingly because unless statistics lie he was more brave than me:more blond than you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,memyself Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM Thanks, Guest. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: Joe_F Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:47 PM "He is accused of glorifying war, and perhaps he does, but not in the usual manner, by pretending that war is a sort of football match. Like most people capable of writing battle poetry, Kipling had never been in battle, but his vision of war is realistic. He knows that bullets hurt, that under fire everyone is terrified, that the ordinary soldier never knows what the war is about or what is happening except in his own corner of the battlefield, and that British troops, like other troops, frequently run away..." -- George Orwell (1942) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: GUEST,memyself Date: 01 Dec 06 - 10:32 PM Orwell nails it, as usual. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: autolycus Date: 02 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM I've heard enough politicians talking about the 'war on terror' to know that's what they think they are engaged in. The one thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history. Those ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it. The old ones are the best ones,those that have stood the test of time. b Ivor |
|
Subject: RE: BS: The more things change... From: autolycus Date: 02 Dec 06 - 07:11 AM And come to think of it, whatever happened to 'Love your enemies as yourself'? I wonder if our politicians are self-hating. That'd be a problem. Ivor |
