Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 01:11 AM

Right. Thank you, Scoville. And GUEST,some have got it, some never get it.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 12:05 AM

Jazz basically sucks. You can't sing along with it, whistle it, and it is usually impossible to make it work with a banjo.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Don't sweat it, M.Ted. The roots are obvious if you listen to bluegrass and then listen to blues.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:47 PM

Show me where in Scotland, England, or Appalachian banjo came from--And show me where Travis picking originated--and find me your UK progenitors to Charlie Poole--and while you're at it, please tell me where you get all your misinformation--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:30 PM

Bebop and Bluegrass.I care little, for either Earl Scruggs or Bird,now I know why. Id rather have Miles Davis and the stanley brothers OR EVEN BETTER Bix Beiderbecke and charlie poole.
musicians should be able to express emotion,for me Scruggs is a musical typewriter,and Bird is on some idosyncratic, intellectual musical trip.
jazz is not at the root of the old APPALACHIAN MUSIC ,most of it came from Scotland, England, Ireland,THE APPALACHIAN MUSIC was supposed to have spawned bluegrass, in fact I have a book of Flatt AND Scruggs,their music is described on it as Folk Music with an overdrive.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:49 PM

There are some pretty good reasons to consider jazz both traditional and folk music, though there are some good reasons to not consider it as either, as well. A moot point, as we say. Jazz is really a process, and that process is at the root of most American popular music. It has been said that Bebop was one of the primary influences on Bluegrass(particularly by Earl Scruggs). Certainly there in Rock, and all the other forms of country, as well. Blues pretty much goes without saying.

I'll just duck, now:-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:22 PM

I'd say it is.

biLL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:27 PM

depends on how you see folkmusic. I think Pulp's Common People is one of the best folksongs ever. If you put all of Leon Rosselsons, Eric Bogles, Ewan MacColl and Steve Knightley's talents together - great as these writers are- I'm sure they couldn't come up with a better song about being English, and what it feels like being born into this bloody class system. Sheer genius - and the whole country understood what it was talking about - not just the tiny folky segment.

No jigs, no reels, no DADGAD guitar, no playing false and prettifying the language, no ancient instrumentation or ballade form, rustic setting, and all the other stuff that makes me wonder why the folk world saw nothing about my life that needed expressing.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:29 PM

I'm late to the thread but....

"In my humble opinion I regard jazz, particularly trad, as part of folk music. "

*deep sigh*...You can't just 'regard' something like that and make it so. There is a REASON why there are different names. And, there are festivals especially for jazz.
I like jazz...a lot. I listen to it often, but just because a few jazz musicians have used some folk melodies to improvise on, that doesn't lump the categories together. They are WAY different approaches to music. The word 'trad' (traditional) can be applied to almost any music. I'm sure those who like Punk Rock could point you to 'trad' versions....

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:21 PM

No, they weren't. As to "The Six Points", good, but significantly arguable points-the Jazz Book, or whatever, is not really the final source on jazz performance --and Humphrey Lytteton is not regarded, here, anyway, as a defining performer in jazz--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,squeezeboxhp
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:51 PM

jazz clubs were where the first folk clubs got an airing.
take it or leave it because music is music like the chocolates.
all music is good but some people like some better than others and some can live with a mixture on the same night as in trad versus modern jazz or where does the line be drawn between this and pop

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

used in jazz fequently -buddy. and generally known as jazz chords, and jazz can be composed music, read the six points,and the composed music they were used in first was jazz.
in fact many members of the classical estasblishment,classical/musicians/ critics/ of the 1900s to 19 20s dismissed jazz as a discordant cacophony.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:06 PM

Those are just chords, Buddy--used in jazz on ocassion, certainly, but they don't come from jazz, and they don't define jazz--all the complex harmonic mechanisms were developed and used in composed music first. And, as has been pointed out, a lot of people only like the kinds of jazz that don't use them.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:31 AM

so you could argue that , Tom Cloughs northumbrian pipe variations were jazz[ CETRAINLY when played byT.CLOUGH], AS I INTERPRET IT POINT 6 means if Kathryn Tickell played CLOUGHS variations, its not jazz, but if she played her own it is.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 06:23 AM

there is no such thing as jazz chords[ what a load of cobblers].they are chords with added notes, often 9ths, sixths, 13, major sevenths , flatted fifths ,11ths so on.
they are sometimes suitable for traditional music and sometimes not.
which is why guitarists like carthy opt for modal chords and the doubling of notes 1 and 5 of the chord[ it gives a dulcimerish effect]. Carthy may also sometimes play added notes, but when he does they are often added to a modal chord.[one with the the third note removed]this is less common in jazz and more difficult to achieve in standard tuning which is what most jazzers and ragtime players [blind blake, Dave van Ronk[[occasionally drop d]]use.
again Ishall quote from the jazz book[ THE DECORATIVE,EMBELLISHING PARAPHRASE WAS THE MAIN IMPROVISATIONORY DEVICE OF THE OLDER JAZZ FORMS. clarinettist Buster Bailey relates at that time[1918]i wouldnt have known what they meant by improvisation.But embellishment was aphrase i understoodand that was what they were doing in New Orleans.
I quote page 152[ AND part contribution from HUMPHREY LITTLETON.
1.the once improvised is equal to improvisation.
2 the once improvised can be reproduced by the one who produced it , but by no one else.
3 Both improvisation and the once improvised are personal expressions of the situation of the musician who produced them .
4.the concurrence of improviser, composer and interpreter belongs to jazz improvisation.
5, In so far as the arranger corresponds to part4 his function differs from that of the improvising composing interpreter merely in terms of craftsmanship and technique; the arranger writes,even when writing for others, on the basis of his experience as an improvising composing interpreter.
6Improvisation- in the sense of points 1 to5- is indispensable to Jazz;improvisation in the sense of complete spontaneity may occur, but is not a necessity.[ from j e berendt TheJazzBook.] Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

"the wider the Church the sweeter the music" quoted from Doktor Doktor above gave me a right laugh: the image of the bride's face as she walked down the aisle to the Death March LOL

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

Someone (and I can't find it, so I can't say who), said something like, "You won't hear 'The Saints Go Marching In' in folk clubs very often."

Forty-three years ago, my Beautiful Wife and I spent our honeymoon in New Orleans, and of course we attended Preservation Hall to listen to one of the local bands. Audience members were permitted (nay, encouraged) to shout out requests. But there was a sign behind the band, with a listing of appropriate contribution rates for different kinds of requests:

Traditional jazz tunes,          $2.00
Non-traditional jazz tunes,   $5.00
The Saints...........................$50.00

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:49 PM

Travis certainly thought that he was playing jazz, and Blind Blake certainly did. It seems a bit silly to say that piece is jazz when one guy plays it, and isn't when another guy plays it. It certainly leans toward the of the narrowness of mind that WLD talks about--

Improvisation doesn't make something jazz or not jazz--Jazz certainly has improvisation, but jazz arrangers have been writing tight arrangements since the twenties--even still, there can be a lot of improvisation in even a "note-for-note" rendition.

And "improvisation" is, in a lot of ways, illusory--Ellington, who is regarded as one of the great improvisers, was known to say something to the effect that there was a lot less improvisation to his music than people thought.   And beyond that, in it's less brilliant incarnations(which, to be brutally honest, is most of it) jazz improvisation tends to be a collection of predictably reworked stock phrases--the term "simulated improvisation" has been used--

As to the concept of "jazz chords"--there are no jazz chords--just chords, and jazz can be played with simple ones or messy ones--and there is a school of thought in jazz that says you can play any tune with just two chords. The secret is in knowing which two;-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:38 PM

Aha So Trad Jazz is part of Folk -Well done Scrump.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:34 PM

Rags such as Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag have been performed both by 'trad jazz' bands and 'folk' guitarists of the Ralph McTell / John James / Stefan Grossman type - as such they provide an example that seems to be common to both types of music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

its debatable whether Blind blake rags and travis picking are jazz , it depends whether the performer is improvising.
however there are jazz influences[ which is not quite the same thing] and the performers may be using jazz chords.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

To the point of the thread--Blind Blake style guitar rags, jug band music, and Travis-picking, and the like have always been an integral part of the the American folk scene, and that stuff is all jazz--

Also, the legendary folk scenes, at least in SF and NYC tended to cohabitate with the jazz scenes, though those were progressive jazz scenes, not traditional--it certainly wasn't uncommon to see John Coltrane LP's next to Mississippi John Hurt on those cinderblock record shelves that we all had--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

Well I can't see why an English writer shouldn't use jazz, Indian music, American , or Icelandic music, or Russian music, and instrumentation - if he thinks it helps talk about what its like living in England today, or even talks about living in England 300 years ago - and as far as Im concerned it will be English folk music.

Do you think guitars , pianos, synthesizers, concertinas, bagpipes - all sprang from English soil, in some mystical way? No, at some point an artist got in there made a synthesis of what was available and created.

You should be tolerant, and (though its asking too much of some buggers) intelligent of creativity.

And yes I can understand why a pompous dickhead like Starkey might have found one or two emotional soulmates. he makes Blair sound human. That guy really talks as though he shits marble - his metaphor of Thomas Cromwell being a bit like someone who had studied modern American business methods struck me as breathtaking in its sheer awfulness.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Good point McGrath of Harlow - but I think people understand at least vaguely what is the the difference between 'trad' and 'modern' jazz.

Fer Gawd's sake let's not get into a debate about what these two terms mean though (cf 'traditional' folk, etc.) :-)

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:18 AM

I think when people say they don't like Jazz as such they are most likely to be thinking of later varieties, the kinds that are revered by people who, more often than not, despise early Jazz.

Terminology becomes a problem - for example "Modern Jazz" for music that is over fifty years old.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:06 AM

Very appropriate, Greg--as you probably know, Django and Grappelli were heavily influenced by the recordings of Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang. And, by the way, there was a story floating around that someone picked up an old archtop guitar at a Philly area yard sale a few years back, and, at home, while taking a closer look, discovered the name "Sal Massaro" was inscribed in the case(Eddie's real name)--

Philly was the home of a lot of great jazz musicians-and a lot of jazz guitarists--

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GLoux
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM

Just last month, the Lansdowne Folk Club in Pennsylvania featured Beau Django in concert, which is a quartet going after the Django Reinhardt/Stephane Grappelli type of jazz. Whether it is "Trad Jazz" or not is a different discussion, but it was very well received and appropriate.

http://www.beaudjango.com

This Folk Club does a great job of mixing up the types of music they present throughout the year...the venue that the club uses is about one mile from where the great jazz guitar player Eddie Lang is buried.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

What the Cap'n said is in line with what I said earlier, so I agree Cap'n.

I don't really see why club organisers have to be blinkered in what they put on. A wide umbrella gives the oportunity to provide more variety and get more listeners in

Well said Villan. Agreed again.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 10:12 AM

from the point of view making clubs more successful, the occassional
trad jazz night might be a good idea, bringing new people to the club, if people know in advance, all those who dont like can stay away ,but i suspect it wiill be a minority . DickMiles

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, should have said "Villan" there

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:46 AM

"....What put me off trad jazz was all the dressing up, the waistcoats and bowlers and stripy shirts....." (Paul burke, way up near the top)

err.. ummm .. not into morris then, or mumming? ;)

GREAT thread btw guys - real Mudcat debate. Put me down for Viaain's team - the wider the Church the sweeter the music ..

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:30 AM

I don't really see why club organisers have to be blinkered in what they put on. A wide umbrella gives the oportunity to provide more variety and get more listeners in.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scoville
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

What, you don't think American old-time alienates the general population? I mean the real stuff, not Old Crow Medicine Show.

Don't think we don't understand how protective you are about your trad music--we've got the same thing over here (I even know a few people who are quite protective of their English traditional music). There are plenty of American trad musicians who do NOT incorporate jazz in what they play and are meticulous about sticking to the European roots of the repertoires, although the roots may not always be English (might be Irish, might be Danish, might be German; there is regional variation). They are also meticulous about sticking with the stylistic conventions of what they play and how they play it. That doesn't mean that they can't do anything else, as you've noted, only that they know how to keep one separate from the rest. We don't all just lump all our musical influences together indiscriminately.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

Scrump, thanks also for that further clarification which I admit I'll have to read more than once to fully understand {or at least understand more}.

And thanks to all others who are participating or will participate in this discussion
[this last thanks is given so I can lurk in comfort without appearing to be rude because I've not acknowledged those who might respond to my previous question about traditional music=dixieland jazz]

-Azizi,
who likes to think of these Internet discussions as conversations that occur at some type of face to face social setting, and therefore that the same rules of etiquette that apply to direct conversations should be followed online.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:16 AM

Villan, thanks.

And yes the conversation is interesting *, and it's more understandable to me now that I have a sense of what type of jazz music people are referring to.

* For me this is interesting in that it provides another opportunity to learn more about other folks' cultures, which is why I'm going to lurk from now on.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:13 AM

I guess you're "or" didn't mean one or the other [label] but that either label for that music clip would be appropriate. Is that right?

Azizi, as mentioned above, the term "Dixieland jazz" is often used (perhaps loosely) for what in the UK many people call "trad jazz". I think the latter term (short for "traditional" - aargh!) was used in the 1950s onwards (or possibly even earlier? someone will know) to distinguish it from "modern" jazz (I leave it to others to define that!)

If you accept that "Dixieland" is more or less interchangeable with "trad" then the answer to your question is "yes". However the Cap'n and others have distinguished between "Dixieland" and "New Orleans" jazz, so it might depend on whether all "trad" jazz can be strictly called "Dixieland" - possibly not, but many people do use the terms as interchangeable, rightly or wrongly.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:05 AM

Azizi
>>Is that right?<< Yes

It is a very interesting thread Azizi.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

How about Wilie Johnson the shetland guitarist who during the second world war listened to Eddie lang[jazz guitarist].,on short wave radio, and developed a jazzy style of guitar playing for backing shetland traditonal fiddlers, and more latterly the Easy Club,ALL IN STANDARD TUNING, chordally very interesting, but definitely Jazz orientated.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:45 AM

Shepherdlass,

I agree that a living tradition develops (probably the definition of a living tradition is that it does develop) but I think it has to develop within set boundaries (or a least in a progression of small steps not giant leaps). As long as people listen to more than one sort of music I don't think they can help but be influenced by what they've heard (for example the mixing of African music and western music - keys, tunings etc - merged to create what became rag time, jazz etc). In a sense all the branches of western music are feeding off each other all the time.

To me traditional English music includes stuff written in England by English people or (like the English themselves) has come from abroad and happily set up home here and has fitted in with our ways. I certainly don't demand birth certificates and passports:-)

It has occured to me many times that many of the non-jazz musicians that like and enjoy playing it are excellent musicians in their own fields. It's like they can understand the language of jazz that just passes me by.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:35 AM

Villan, thanks for posting that music clip of trad jazz.

You wrote "Dixieland or Trad Jazz, this is what I mean. Have a listen."

I guess you're "or" didn't mean one or the other [label] but that either label for that music clip would be appropriate. Is that right?

As to the question "Is trad jazz part of the folk scene", since it's not my trad jazz and not my folk scene, I decline to answer the question.

But I'm learning more as a result of 'listening to' this discussion.

Thanks again Villan for not ignoring my question.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: shepherdlass
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:59 AM

Dazbo, I see your point re Cambridge Folk Festival but I don't think folk is the poor relation of jazz anymore. In Britain, folk outsells jazz by, oh, all of about 0.2%, but that's significant because of the size of markets we're talking about (though oh, how I hate talking about "markets" at all).

Yes, traditional music should be cherished, but a living tradition develops. Living in NE England makes you aware of this: the region's had its fair share of eclectic blending from way back through the centuries - the Northumbrian pipes are probably derived from the French musette; James Hill who wrote so many wonderful Tyneside hornpipes was Scottish; etc, etc. I think the occasional adoption of jazz phrasing or harmony is just part of that process (another North Easterner, Kathryn Tickell, does this a lot of course). It seems to me that the best examples of eclecticism often come from those performers who also excel at more "pure" traditional music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:56 AM

Dixieland or Trad Jazz, this is what I mean. Have a listen.

Up Jumped The Devil by Red Beans 'n'Rice

Vic Bevan - cornet; Tidge Riches - clarinet/alto sax; Jeff Rous - trombone; Robin Burgess - sousaphone; John Bright - tenor banjo; Barry Crickmore - drums

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:07 AM

Oh dear, WLD,

You really have got a 'bee in your bonnet' about about us fans of trad. music, haven't you? What I can't understand is that if our music is as irrelevant and 'alienating' as you say it is, it will soon die out and you won't have to worry any more, will you? All I can say is that if your project succeeds, and trad. music, in a trad. style, is replaced by some sort 'relevant' pop/rock confection that will be the day that I 'jump ship' and start looking for something else! One of the reasons (not the only one) that I like trad. music is because it is refreshingly unlike modern, commercial pop music.   

Actually, I think that, like many people today, you are committed to constant change and think that the past is irrelevant. There was an article in last Sunday's 'Independent' about the British historian and TV pundit, David Starkie. Now, I wouldn't normally agree with a pompous prat like Starkie but, in the course of the interview, he said something interesting about Tony Blair: "I also think that a politician with no sense of history, like Blair, is the equivalent of a mental defective. History is a collective experience and not to share is to suffer from a kind of Alzheimer's. It makes you autistic, unthinking." (I think that the phraseology is somewhat offensive but the point that he is making is very interesting and 'relevant' to our contemporary society).

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Dazbo
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 03:57 AM

I don't know why, but jazz is one of the styles of music that leaves me stone cold. It doesn't get my heart beating or my feet tapping just nothing. It's hard enough finding traditional English folk** without being (in my case) inflicted with something akin to watching paint dry whilst waiting for it to come on.

Traditional English folk music, not withstanding its current mini boom, is a rare and fragile flower that needs looking after, not to be swamped by foriegn imports. It's so frustrating, for example, living in the middle of England how few English sessions there are compared to Irish (sessions totally populated by English players and singers).

Folk musicians and audiences seem to be an inclusive lot (which is generally a good thing) but unless this inclusiveness is reciprocated by other genres I think it can be detrimental to folk music. It seems to me that this inclusivity, by for example bringing in trad jazz, is in fact the poorer relation (folk) subsidising the slightly better off relation (trad jazz) - Cambridge "Folk" Festival anyone? If and when Courtney Pine shares the bill with The Dartmoor Pixie Band or Metalica share the bill with Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, I will change my mind. Until then - No.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of fanatic who only listens to traditional English folk music. Apart from jazz, rap, drum and bass, and barber shop singing I've got quite a wide taste in music: folk music from southern Africa to Finland to North and South America; classical from Byrd to Beethoven, Purcell to Prokofiev; rock and blues from the 50s to the present day.

**Throughout this reply I am using my own definition of this word. Please note it may vary greatly from your own definition.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:30 AM

I think the Brits are just waiting for Martin Carthy to tell tham its alright to put a bit of jazz in there. Actually I always thought that Brass Monkey project of his had a bit of jazzy feel to it.

Loosen up, for God's sake before they enclose us like those 18th century peasants - you all want to sound like.

no no no no...indeed. It's like oh Sir Jasper do not touch me....

I'm sure things never USED to be so uptight. Like I say I've seen Roy Harris and Bob davenport both do unaccompanied stuff at Jazz evenings. In fact I remember John Tams joining Bob on stage to finish off the evening with Chuck Berry's Memphis Tenessee. another gig, he did Bob marley's get Up, Stand Up. Mind you those guys could really sing, none of this forgetting the words , and I don't know where this song came from, and reading the words from folders....

I'm just getting old , I suppose - and I don't like the way the worlds going....no no no no, my arse!

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 02:06 AM

That album Dave Van Ronk first did Green Green Rocky Road on, also had a trad jazz band.

The reason you Americans find it so difficult to understand why us Brits are so precious about our traditional music, is that we have a style of traditional music that (though adhered to passionately by a middle class minority) totally alienates the general population. As somebody remarked to me in folk club last night, Traditional English music is an acquired taste - and hardly anybody bothers acquiring it.

Our 'traditional' music is generally reckoned to be under threat of disappearing if its adherents look the other way, take their eye off the ball.

Jazz like blues (though it has been quite popular with most English people for quite a while) is thought to be a corrupting influence.

Mention of Lennie Tristano reminded me that I once saw Davy Graham (inventor of DADGAD tuning - can't get more traddie than that) play an instrumental homage he had written himself to this great musician. So not every English folk musician gets the vapours and goes No No No No, at the very thought of jazz invading the holy of holys - English folk music.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM

You UK'ers have no idea how peculiar this discussion seems to Americans

Amen, M. Ted. I started reading this and was wondering what the Hell everyone was talking about. I mean, I did, but in the U.S. it's almost beyond asking.

Pete Peterson's right--in the U.S. it's often hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. Was true of revival bands, too. The Red Clay Ramblers pulled it off very well.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

The overlap between American old time music and traditional jazz is huge. In Venn diagrams, the overlap of A with B has lots of stuff in it. Clayton MacMichen of the Skillet Lickers thought of jazz as his "serious" music and couldn't understand why people kept buying those Skillet Licker sides. He wanted to be remembered for his "serious" music. . . sort of like Sir Arthur Sullivan wanting to be remembered for "serious" compositions and not that fluff with Gilbert.
   The complete recordings of Lowe Stokes (also of the Skillet Lickers) are about half jazz and Broadway hits (Take Me To the Land of Jazz, Left All Alone Again Blues, Everybody's Doing It) and half traditional tunes like "Katy Did" and "Take Me Back to Georgia" and Sally Johnson".
   Homer and Jethro did a wonderful album "Playing it Straight" where they demonstrated what great musicians they were (just in case somebody couldn't tell amid the comedy)
   and one of my favorite recordings is that of the Six and Seven-Eighths String Band of New Orleans, who worked out a way of doing Dixieland on stringed instruments: slide guitar as trombone, mandolin as clarinet, guitar and bass. It's wonderful.

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:38 PM

Thanks M. Ted. I've been reading this thread and trying to figure out what "trad jazz" was. So is it Dixieland your talking about, like this? [though there's no banjo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egxqCZ6W-DQ

Tiger Rag-The Original Dixieland Jazz Band

"The Original Dixieland Jazz Band was the first (white) jazz band to record in 1917. The band stayed together for years and their last recording was done in 1936.
The band members went for different careers. However some record producer tried to get the band together again some 10 years later.
Therefore I assume that this clip was produced in the mid forties after trumpet player Nick La Rocca organized and found the original band members for this event".

Added to [YouTube] September 05, 2006 ; From boberwig

Subject: RE: Is Trad Jazz part of the Folk Scene
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:34 PM

The (apparently) longest running 7-nights-a-week folk club in the world was TRAYNORS in Melbourne, Australia, named after the trombonist leader of Frank Traynor's Jazz Preachers.