Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

Geewillikers!

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST,3:52 PM
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:36 PM

"I agree and I stated what you wrote much more parsimoniously."

Apparently you consider restrained writing to be of superior value to my shoot from lip, can't be arsed to edit sort of style.

Bully for you.

You also admitted voting for Nixon.

And the rest of us are made sorry your judgment doesn't equal your writing ability.

"Too bad you don't become a member..."

Yawn.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

29 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

I agree and I stated what you wrote much more parsimoniously.

Too bad you don't become a member like me (who did not sign in, who is Internet lazy, who is....)

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

PS He was a horseshit president.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

The hype over Ford's "private views" (I guess Woodward's shopping for another Pulitzer) over Iraq is a non-starter. Ford showed the same cowardice by not speaking out honestly--and publicly--that he did when he pardoned Nixon in order to put distance between Nixon and the Republican Party.

I've been watching all the cable news (including C-SPAM) this week, and there are also "intimations" of the quid pro quo.

Future historians will be able to prove the quid pro quo, of that I have no doubt.

They will also show that Ford's decision to intervene and short -circuit the constitutional process regarding impeachment has done more damage to the constitution than was orginally thought. Ford's divine intervention in the impeachment process, which as I said was all about political expediency and NOT this revisionist bullshit "healing the nation" crap we keep hearing repeated every news cycle right now (along with the idiotic Betty and me love story), paved the way for the subverting of the constitution we have seen since 9/11 by both parties, ie the undermining of the constitution with the Patriot Act, the executive branch putting themselves above the law with the support of the courts (which has been relentless since the Nixon administration), the Supreme Court intervention to stop the Florida vote count in 2000, the abrogation of Congress' oversight responsibilities and usurpation of it's constitutional powers by both it's own members and the executive branch, blah blah blah.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:06 PM

I guess that one of Bush's greatest achievements is making former mediocrities look good in retrospect.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

" It is an implied admission that he did not have all the information that Pres. Bush et. al. had. Therefore, one may also infer that he might have gone to war had he had that information,"

:No, John, one may not infer that Ford would have gone to war in Iraq, "
"In contrast to our present Chickenhawk in Chief, he had an idea of what war was really like, and would likely have weighed all data before reaching a decision. "


Ron, are YOU stating the Ford would have IGNORED any information that might have led him to support the war, and ONLY decided in a way which YOU approve of?


I guess Ron has a problem with the word "MIGHT", since he ignores it so readily.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Slag
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:25 AM

I don't tink Ron liks me any mor. Im so sorry Ron.
Let me c if i can cover sum of the isues u hav brot up.

Second: You seem to be fighting Barry Finn's battles. Who put the bee in YER bonnet?.

The issue with Mr. Finn was his MISCHARACTERIZATION and incorrect quotations of statements I made. Pretty much what you are doing in your above post. It's easy to win arguments when you substitute your own words for those of your opponent and then proceed to refute them. At that point, the lack of grammar, et cetera, does begin to move to the foreground. Maybe we should have our little debates scored by a highschool English teacher. Then we would know who really won. Oops, sentence fragment.

You know, some sites even have "Spell Check"!

I'm certainly glad I got that second "s" out of "desert" (De-bakkle of...).

Your misuse of the parenthetical after, "You don't read very carefully, do you? (among your other sterling qualities). " obviously negates any point you were trying to make.

"Bushites don't read very carefully." A nice assertion Ron, yet you offer no proof. YOU wouldn't be biased, now would you? If you are going to criticize someone (or paint an entire group with a single stroke), don't do the same thing you are criticizing. Bad form.

In regards to Bush's intelleigence agencies, they were pretty much on the same page as the majority of other intelligence gathering agencies around the world concerning WMDs. Saddam's actions certainly did nothing to allay the perception that he had them. In fact there is evidence that his multiple WMD programs were on-going as late as the beginning of the war. And yes, it's debatable, but that means there is credible evidence on either side of the question.

re: "Re: Russia---how about Bush's statement's on looking into Putin's soul?" I never responded to that statement one way or another! Who are you debating here? Strawmen abound! And for the record, that was probably one of the dumber things Bush has said. It's just about on par with Carter's revelation of the duplicity of the Kremlin.

Recheck you facts on Carter's fiscal policies. OPEC's manipulations were only one factor in the American economy and it wasn't even on par with the phoney "Oil Shortage" of the early 70's. Historically Carter is seen to have been very weak in the economic arena.

With regards to Carter's inaction and failure to confront the Embassy situation, this did nothing but embolden the Anti-American sentiment in this part of the world and it has led (Pb) directly to the tensions we face there today. I won't harp on this one though, because it can only be rank speculation as to what would have or could have happened if other courses of action had been pursued. What is, is (depending on how you define the word "is", that is).

You need to calm down a bit there, Ron. All I'm saying is that I was not very favorably impressed with Mr. Ford's Presidency. Sorry! He was selected for what he would do for Nixon and that subverted justice, to my way of thinking. So he swept a little dirt under the rug. Well, if you get enough dirt under there it starts stinking. Nixon would have been a good place to have begun some seriously needed house cleaning. Ahh, what's the use. You Nixonites are all the same.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:04 AM

At this point in the thread I agree with Sorcha's post ....

"OK, he's dead. Deal with it. Is he buried yet? Getting tired of the hoopla. Typical media feeding frenzy til the next thing comes along."

Amen

BiLL

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:04 AM

I was hoping that would be interpreted as understatement.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 12:01 AM

This place can get downright testy at times.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:42 PM

"statements"

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

What, Seamus, you're criticizing Slag?--who wants us to know he's too good to debate anybody not up to his standards?

Slag--

"We all make speed errors and some misspellings in our posts". Fine, but some of us make an attempt to correct them-- sometimes even before we post. Imagine that. You might want to try it sometime.

However, if you want to come across as a semiliterate, that's your choice.

But if you do, please be so good as to refrain from criticizing others on the basis of literacy.

Thanks so much.




"Debacale (sic) in the desert". You don't read very carefully, do you? (among your other sterling qualities). Amazingly common among Bushites. I've already pointed out that Bush and his "intelligence" agencies can more than hold their own with that incident.

Re: Russia---how about Bush's statement's on looking into Putin's soul?

Bush: 16 June 2001: " I looked the man in the eye. I found him very straightforward and trustworthy." (This about a former high-ranking KGB agent). "I was able to get a sense of his soul" Yeah, right.

In contrast to your, to put it bluntly, stupid slander, mine is a direct quote-- from a press conference as I recall.

In the naivete sweepstakes, Bush wins hands down.



Carter "nearly destroyed the US with his insane fiscal policies".
(congratulations on spelling "fiscal" right).

Wrong again. Have you ever heard of a little group called OPEC?--who may just possibly have played a role in the inflation of the 70's.


Also, how many unnecessary wars of choice did Carter start? Our current "leader" wins that contest too.

Well, let's see. So far, you have indicated that you are a poster who attacks other, more contributing members of Mudcat, attacking on an extraneous issue--on which you yourself are sorely lacking. And that you specialize in unsubstantiated attacks. It seems you have a virtually perfect record of falsehoods and misquotes. You're not one of our delightful "politics-only" posters, are you? What kind of music do you like?

As has been noted, you owe an apology to Barry--not that we expect you to do it---your kind rarely does. (You're welcome to prove me wrong).

Try again. And please do some reading before you do--hoping that's not an unreasonable request. You do read, don't you?

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:27 PM

OK, he's dead. Deal with it. Is he buried yet? Getting tired of the hoopla. Typical media feeding frenzy til the next thing comes along.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:22 PM

Ain't that the troof.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:17 PM

Guys, the day this becomes a spelling site is the day it will have three posters left, and them three what ain't left will kick each other out.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:05 PM

Yeah, Seamus. Thanks! You are right. And I also have a nasty habit of hitting the "q" at the same time I hit the "a" but I almost always catch those. So sorry to annoy you with technical concerns instead of just content. Led on, Mc Duff !!

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:01 PM

No, John, one may not infer that Ford would have gone to war in Iraq, unless one is desperate to somehow justify Bush's tragically stupid move. It is unclear what Ford would have done--though it's likely he would not have rejected out of hand any evidence that did not support the decision to invade--nor made it clear that he did not want to see any evidence that contradicted that proposed course of action. In contrast to our present Chickenhawk in Chief, he had an idea of what war was really like, and would likely have weighed all data before reaching a decision.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:54 PM

Slag - it's 'led', not 'lead' that's the past tense of 'lead'.
This recurring error on your part is most annoying.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:28 PM

Dammit, without the WMD threat there was no remotely conceivable reason to invade Iraq.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:10 PM

Regarding Bearded Bruce's response to Greg F. at 10:58am, the operative word int that sentence is 'publicly', that is, the information available to the population at large. It is an implied admission that he did not have all the information that Pres. Bush et. al. had. Therefore, one may also infer that he might have gone to war had he had that information, although he would not used WMD as justification for it.
See, too, BBs posting at 11:05am.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:25 PM

"Find anothr answer." Hmm...What was the question?

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM

Yeah. Shoulda followed the Constitution and asked for a declaration of war. But then, the Constitution is so, so, passe -- just a hinderance, you know.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:15 AM

Yes, we should have made up a different reason why were were going on a war of choice against another nation. What a state of affairs.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:05 AM

and

""He made it very clear that he did not agree with the reasons President Bush laid out for the war, namely the belief that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or that there was some obligation that the United States or the president had to expand democracy."

The Washington Post published other excerpts from the interview.

"(Defense Secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and (Vice President Dick) Cheney and the president made a big mistake in justifying going into the war in Iraq," Ford said.

"They put the emphasis on weapons of mass destruction. And now, I've never publicly said I thought they made a mistake, but I felt very strongly it was an error in how they should justify what they were going to do."

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:58 AM

Greg F.


"I don't think, if I had been president -- on the basis of the facts as I saw them publicly -- I don't think I would have ordered the Iraqi war," Ford said in a part of the interview broadcast on CNN's "Larry King Live" Wednesday.

"I would have maximized our efforts through sanctions, through restrictions, whatever, to find another answer," the former president said. "

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:39 AM

The editorial cartoon in today's "USA Today" was quite telling:

George Bush on the left, saying "I am a uniter, not a divider" and under it the words "Talks the Talk" while on the right is Gerald Ford, quietly holding a taped-together map and the worlds "Walks the Walk" under it.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM

Ford Had Problems With Bush Iraq policy
28 Dec 06

WASHINGTON - Former President Gerald R. Ford questioned the Bush administration's rationale for the U.S. invasion and war in Iraq in interviews he granted on condition they not be released until after his death.

In his embargoed July 2004 interview with The Washington Post, Ford said the Iraq war was not justified, the Post reported Wednesday night.

Ford "very strongly" disagreed with the current president's justifications for invading Iraq and said he would have pushed alternatives, such as sanctions, much more vigorously. "I don't think I would have gone to war."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061228/ap_on_re_us/ford_iraq.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:52 AM

And if your number had been 350? Yeah, I'm sure you'd have gone along and enlisted huh? Doing your duty and all that...............Wouldn't want to risk being labeled a sniveling coward and traitor..............Yeah, sure.....You'd have been there anyway. It's just kinda' odd you should mention your lottery number.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:49 AM

Mr. Nixon was a great disappointment to me. He, in essence, turned his back on the people of Taiwan when he made his overture to Mao Tse Tung and Red China. That and he was far less aggressive in Viet Nam than he lead the voters to believe he would be. From the day he made his "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore!" statement, he was dead meat as far as the US press was concerned. The press hunted, stalked, baited and relentlessly harrassed the man. No wonder he was paranoid. And he was paranoid!

That group of genius operatives known as the "Plumbers" were a reflection of his paranoia. By all accounts Nixon was not a stupid man and I would like to believe that about him but the Plumbers were still using lead to make their joints water tight. Nixon's great sin was trying to be loyal to this loyal but misdirected crew and he ended up obstructing justice. Exit Mr. Nixon and good riddance. Exit the Plumbers and good riddance.

I took a wait-and-see attitude toward China. I still have a wait-and-see attitude toward China. If our infussion of capital and American Debt into their economy can corrupt and hopelessly ensnare their version of Communism, so be it. It beats ICBMs at 30,000 paces. What about Taiwan? Wait and see. It may all work out yet.

Well, did affable, Good Ol' Gerry heal or hurt our nation? Like I said before. He was OK. He was average. A relatively smart fellow, a jock, a nice guy. I'd rather have him for me than against me. Do we want average? Is Mc Donald's successful? Is that what you want? Hugh Grant and Julie Roberts? Yeah, why not?

Let's just ignore the termites gnawing away at the foundation of our nation. Whatever happens, will happen. Life is so much easier when you have no firm convictions, no real "right" or "wrong". Just what the majority believes. Hey, that's what democracy is, isn't it? Just give me a lobotomy and sink me into the middle of that great Bell-Shaped Curve!

Does anyone remember that issue of National Lampoon Magazine that had the centerfold of Gerald Ford with the ice cream cone stuck into the middle of his forehead and that great big old grin on his face? Or is that before your time?

Yeah, I really miss those days. Good ol' Jimmy swattin' them rabbits, Gerry trippin' down the gantries, the smell of tear gass.

What was I doing when all those brave kids were headed off to Canada?
I was in Tech School at Shepard AFB. My lottery number came up #8. Too late! I was already in and serving my country.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:36 PM

There you go again Slag, shagging my name because of my shortcomings rather than taking on the issue. So whose dishonesty is afoot here?
It seems that the distaste in your mouth is of your own doing & yes we can let it go at that.

Jimmy's pardons were a perfectly well timed blessing to a nation that was split & did a lot to heal.

As for that "Debacale in the Desert". I remember it well. My sister & my future Brother-in-law were both in that desert at the time & what had the potential for being a blood bath as the war against our embassy in Tehran would have been under todays logic came to be a lesser note in history than had we invaded. If only Jimmy were in office 6 yrs ago.

"No balls" peace prize. Really. Let's see another state's man in this nation take on the tasks & risks he's taken & see how many can walk in his shoes. We haven't got one person that that we can put in office that holds a candle to him!

And as for "all the sniveling little draft dodgers, cowards and traitors who left the country or went into hiding rather than do their duty". You must be joking! Where were you? Where are you coming from?
In this day & age that's what you think & care about? That's how you still feel? No wonder there's an awful taste left in your mouth. Please tell me again about my short comings. Wow!

Good-bye Slag

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Slag
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:47 PM

Yes R%on, we all make speed errors and some misspelllings in our posts but when you see it occurring with great regularity and coupled with misquotes and mischaracterizations and rank dismissal of cogent arguemnt then in MY considered opinion there is either stupidity or outright dishonesty afoot. Your bias preceeds you and makes your response unnecessary. I'll just assume you disagree and we can let it go at that.

Jimmy's stupidity? How about his shock! Shock! that Communist Russia was NOT honest? How about his non-response to an act of war against our embassy in Tehran. Oh wait! There WAS that "Debacale in the Desert"! I don't know who masterminded that strategic wonder but it ultimately had Carter's stamp of approval on it. Wasn't Carter an ex-military man? Something about the Navy and a submarine? Maybe he should have sent a sub in, instead of a chopper.

Speaking of egregious pardons, his first day in office he pardoned all the sniveling little draft dodgers, cowards and traitors who left the country or went into hiding rather than do their duty or take an upfront, in-your-face stand against the Viet Nam Police Action!

And he was awarded the No-balls Peace prize? For making Peace???? Really? We are still benefitting from that one. That's the only Nobel prize that is entirely subjective and without merit (in Carter's case, that is).

He nearly single-handedly destroyed this nation's economy along with many of the world's economies with his insane fiscal policies and double digit inflation. There are very few of either party who would disagree with that statement. It's a fact.

Yes and his personal prowess and bravery were fittingly demonstrated when he shrieked out and struck out with a wooden oar at the poor little jackrabbit which was trying to clamber aboard his dinghy to keep from drowning. How did that end? Did he have the Secret Service agents shoot the rabbit? I forget. It was icing on the cake.

Those are just some of the "high"lights of this man's tenure in office.

More on Trick Dick and Ford later!

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:39 PM

Mr. Ford was a political coward for giving Nixon a pardon. That action was a simple case of he gave me a job so I will help him now. Ford was that simplistic. He was a bad president and it is nonsense that he brought the county back together and healed the Nation's wounds.

BTW, I voted for Nixon.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:35 PM

Though I hesitate to debate with people who style themselves
only as 'Guest,' I'd point out that some of the better thinkers
around turn up on CNN and NPR...though maybe not Fox.

Another interpretation regarding Cheney and Rumsfeld is that they
observed Gerald Ford, and how his decent and genial style failed
to sustain him in the halls of power, and resolved to adopt a more
polarizing and confrontational style.

And if you look carefully, you'd see that Ford did precisely what
the left are calling on Dubya to do...disengage from a futile effort
to determine the outcome of a guerilla-powered civil war.

You can't at once castigate Ford for the 'fall of Saigon' and
then turn around and advise Dubya to cut the losses in Baghdad.

Unless, of course, you're the type who has established that
everything that 'they' do is wrong, and 'you' know the better way,
only that they won't elect you even if you do come out of the pub
three hours earlier than usual.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:13 PM

Slag stated:

"I'm debating on whether to debate with a semi-literate"

Slag-Off Slag.

This is an Internet forum not an English Class. You owe Mr. Finn an apology.

I understand you are a welder. I was an expert welder and well educated. I doubt you were both and I still do not criticize your writing, although I easily could, as others already have.

Be fair.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:22 PM

Aye.

I'm left with this strange longing to know: what would Hunter do?

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:19 PM

I recall Gerald Ford in an address to the nation. He said, "Remember, I'm a Ford, not a Lincoln." Would we had some wit in the White House now.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 08:10 PM

Wizzy -- being dead is no protection from having truth told about you, nor should it be. De mortuis nil nisi bene is a load of crap.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:40 PM

WARNING: folk-related content!

And I'll bet no one on PBS or the History Channel mentions that Squeaky Fromme's first claim to fame was as a folk dancer who even performed at the White House. Wry grin.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:19 PM

There is a very long list of murderers who have inhabited the White House though, Ron. Not just Dubya.

Nixon rises above them all--he both unnecessarily oversaw the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people in SE Asia, AND committed unprecedented political crimes to insure he kept his hold on power.

Of the two presidents, Dubya and Nixon, I think it's really easy to tell which one history will view with the most contempt: the one that paved the road to hell, so Dubya could so easily lead us all down it and into Iraq, the gutting of the Bill of Rights, etc.

Had Ford not pardoned Nixon, and had Nixon stood trial, I sincerely doubt the neocons would be getting away with what they are getting away with today.

And as to the Warren Commission, Ford is known to have doctored the report to "prove" the single shooter theory he preferred (source: 1997 Assassination Records Review Board report).

Ford's death is conjuring many a ghost, and many a ghostly echo of the current administration's footsteps in the halls of power.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:07 PM

"Nixon was the worst criminal"---if you don't think that using a despicable propaganda campaign to START an unneccessary and unjustified war--and another such campaign to be elected in 2004-- tops Nixon-- including as political criminal, you need to do a little more reading. Start with obituaries of "Coalition" soldiers--and Iraqis.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM

And Greg, you are also forgetting someone else who "started it"--JFK & LBJ are the ones who got us into Vietnam.

What is just bizarre about the reporting about Ford right now is how little they are mentioning Vietnam.

Ford is the US president who presided over the fall of Saigon, and the economic crisis that occurred because of the war.

Guess they don't want us to know what's really coming...as if we don't already know.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:59 PM

Gee Greg B, thanks for parroting what they just said on NBC and CNN...

Just because they are saying nice things about the Nixon pardon on TV doesn't make the pundits right, now does it? It just makes it the propaganda line of the day.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:58 PM

Lest we forget, Ford was the man who gave Rumsfeld, Cheney et al the chickenhawk neocons their first big government gig--just as Saigon was falling.

Which is why the Dubya Chickenhawk Brigade insisted upon invading Iraq: they wanted to prove how right they were about Vietnam.

And we now we know.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:55 PM

Even some of Gerald Ford's sharpest critics at the time now concede
that the pardon of Nixon was an act of tough-minded courage that
allowed the nation to move on. One of them, on NPR today, said that
after watching the OJ Simpson and Monica Lewinski media circuses,
Ford's foresight was impressive.

Can you imagine if it hadn't been Ford--- if Spiro Agnew had
succeeded Nixon?

They blame him for losing the election due to the pardon, but as
Bob Dole pointed out, the economy was in a mess during the '76
election in which he ran with Ford, as well.

And let's face it, Watergate was still in the forefront of people's
minds.

What I find interesting is the lavish praise being heaped upon Ford.

I can't help wondering if the disillusionment with Dubya doesn't
make people sentimental for a nice guy, a clear thinker, and a
proponent of a more genteel form politics in which he could be
close friends with, for example, Tip O'Neil and get work done
in Congress.

It seems to me that people who blame Ford for their disillusionment
seem to forget who started the situation--- Nixon and his CREEP
henchmen. It also seems to me that, 30-odd years later, those who
are unable to revise their disillusionment aren't a bit 'stuck' and
perhaps are looking for an excuse to remain so--- after all, if you
remain firmly opposed to everything, then you can avoid claiming
any real responsibility.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:45 PM

Okay, he was better than most of his crooked Repuib pals, like both Bushes, Reagan and Nixon but he was still a crook... I didn't buy his BS explanation for pardoning Nixon at the time and to this very day don't buy into any of the revisionist's attempt to sanitize this repugnant chapter on American history... He was wrong then and no matter hjow much ink the revisionists spill, he'll always be wrong... If Bill Clinton wasbn't above the law over a danged blow job than Nixon shouldn't have been for all the ****very illegal**** crap he did... Cant' have it both ways...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:34 PM

I am in complete agreement that Ford was wrong to pardon Nixon.

Because it was politically expedient (even if you prefer to call it "healing the nation"), didn't mean it was the right thing to do.

He also lied about it.

As he lied about not planning to run for president.

As he lied about there not being a quid pro quo.

Just because he died, doesn't change the facts. Yet, people always feel they have to say nice things about corrupt politicians, even when they die.

And sometimes, even before they die, as was the case with the Redeemed Nixon (tm).

Nixon should have been brought to trial. His offenses were the most egregious that ever came to public light about a sitting president. We owed it to ourselves and our constitution to see it through to the end.

Not do the politically expedient thing, which was to pardon him. That was no act of courage, regardless of his Kennedy courage award*.

*Courage like cheating on one's wife, leaving a woman to drown in the car, getting your nephew off the hook for rape, having your marriage annulled after having children, just so you can remarry in the Catholic church, etc etc in the Kennedy "courage" tradition?

Not that I'm cynical about the Kennedys, or anything.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:17 PM

The oddest thing, to me, was that Nixon appointed a rather likeable (if not terribly effective) man like Ford to be VP. At the time it was widely felt that Agnew was Nixon's shield against impeachment (much as Cheney is for Bush). The most notable quote of the eara , IMO, was from LB Johnson, who commented that Ford had spent too many years playing football without a helmet.

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM

There once was a President named Ford,
Who always appeared to be bored,
When Nixon he pardoned
My thoughts they did harden,
And most of us were quite floored!

(bad doggeral) Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Obit: President Gerald R. Ford, Dec. 26, 2006
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

I graduated high school the year that Nixon resigned and was, virtually immediately, pardoned by the man he'd appointed (to do so?). One of the legacies Ford left was a generation -- mine -- disillusioned by and disgusted with the government that, for the previous 12 years, we'd been taught to respect. In the face of the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, it was difficult to absorb that teaching in the first place, but Ford taught me my first lesson of my college years about cronyism in the nation's capital.

Perhaps if he had waited for more than just a month before declaring that he "could not govern" unless Nixon was pardoned (it's not as if he gave the alternative much of a chance!), it would at least have looked less as if he'd been put in office only to perform that one act. I think that, if he really felt as strongly about the pardon as a "healing" measure as he said he did, he should have waited until he'd been elected to office.

By then, of course, Nixon might have been put on trial, but I disagree with the contention that that would've torn the country apart. I think that letting the nation see that even its president was not above the law would have done more to heal it. Besides, a person is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty around here, so giving Nixon a pardon before a trial seems like an unfair condemnation of the man under our justice system!

By all accounts, Gerald Ford was supposed to have been a nice guy, and probably had no malicious intent in pardoning Nixon, but in my opinion, granting that pardon was more foolish than courageous.