BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM

Source--CNN wire-- 15 Jan 2006

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

Teribus:

Long article Arne, that says very little - there again anything from The Green Left online would only ever give a completely unbiased account. It provides a catelogue of inferrences, no real data, like Carrots it seems to weigh in heavy on dual use items, that in themselves are perfectly harmless and all of which have perfectly legitimate civilian applications.

It cites U.S. Senate reports. You can look 'em up, you know....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM

Guess I should also point out that the article mentions the use of proxies for indirect arming of Iraq.....

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

dual use items, that in themselves are perfectly harmless and all of which have perfectly legitimate civilian applications.
Doh - silly me. Of course, the botulinum strains that were being sought by the Iraqis were actually intended for botox injections. Ten years before the fashionistas of Manhattan and Chelsea were numbing their faces with odd injections, the Iraqis were perfecting the technique. That's why Saddam looked so expressionless in the dock - he'd been Botoxed!
Anthrax, too, I'm sure has a legitimate use. Do remind me what it is, Terry dear.

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:32 PM

Mosul:

"Mosul did not fall within the Kurdish-ruled area, but it was included in the no-fly zones imposed and patrolled by the United States and Britain between 1991 and 2003.Although, this prevented Saddam's forces from mounting large-scale military operations again in the region, it did not stop the regime from implementing a steady policy of "Arabisation" by which the demography of some areas of Ninawa Governorate were gradually changed."

That the place you are talking about Ron? Another place where your favourite Sunni Arabs carry on their Jihad against their fellow Iraqi citizens?

As an innocent Sunni Arab bystander, I think that long ago, I would have told my civic, tribal and religious leaders to take a hike along with the Nazi Ba'athists, Sunni Salafists and foreign Jihadists in order that they could go and protect somebody else.

The Grand Ayatollah Al-Sistani, the most senior and revered Shiite cleric in Iraq. Nobody heard that much about him before either Ron, but that completely belies his power and influence. Al-Sadr had to wait until Al-Sistani was out of Najaf to mount his abortive attack on MNF troops a couple of years back. Al-Sistani returned and Al-Sadr was told in no uncertain terms to rein in the Mahdi Army and keep it under control, Al-Sadr complied. He was quietly influential enough to assist in charting the path to Interim Government, the drafting of the constitution and eventually in the Government elections. Do not dismiss him or his influence so lightly - Al-Sadr certainly doesn't.

Carrots what does CDC in the US use botulinum strains for? What weapons does CDC provide the US Military with? Simple questions Carrots especially for someone who is trying to tell the world and its dog that the US armed the Iraqi Government of Saddam Hussein with Chemical & Biological Weapons. You seem to think that you have unearthed the US source of these weapons, now tell us what weapons they produce.

Arne it can cite whatever it wants, there was very little real data in that article and the bulk of it referred to dual use items.

Oh and finally Ron, UK Force draw down in Iraq, IF things go according to plan there will shortly be more British Forces in Afghanistan than in Iraq, I would guess an establishment of around 3,300 to 3,500 by mid-summer this year, and they will be employed in training roles.

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:11 PM

Sorry Teribus--the explosion took place outside a Kurdish political office. All is not hunky-dory in Kurdish areas--and Western firms are aware of this--and, aside from oil firms, taking a wait-and-see attitude. It will be interesting to find out who was responsible for the bombing.

By the way, what about the Turkmen--and their views on the Kirkuk region? Do you have any inkling of their significance? If not you should do a bit of research.

No surprise that "Kurdistan" is pushing tourism. I hope it remains safe for tourists. Let me know if you decide to visit "Kurdistan" soon.


You still haven't learned that Iraq is not the Royal Navy. The "command and control" situation you envision is just that--in your mind. You can tell all your religious and political leaders to "take a hike" and that may well not prevent a disgruntled neighbor from seeing an opportunity to get at you--or your possessions. It's charming how you so naively cling to the "insurgency" terminology.

Civil wars are real messy--and that's what we're seeing.

Good to see you admit the UK is drawing down its troops in Iraq. Tell me, if things don't go swimmingly, do you think Mr. Brown or Mr Cameron would halt the withdrawals of UK troops. Yes or no?

Sistani--the examples you cite of his influence end with the elections-- a year ago December. As I said, recently he has not been making pronouncements--for the reason I cited.

As usual, you have proven nothing.

And, by the way, what about my question as to whether, as a law-abiding Sunni with a police force you could not trust, you would give up your weapons? Yes or no?

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 03:19 AM

Terry, the US uses the botulinum strain for the manufacture of vaccines against the pathogen, and also for the manufacture of Botox. Just as the UK does.
However, in the Eighties it would seem unlikely that Iraq's primary interest would be making vaccines as Iran was not using biological agents, and I'm not aware of a booming cosmetic surgery sector in pre-Gulf war Iraq. Such vaccines as it required would be for staff and soldiers weaponising the stuff. The primary use was offensive. Iraq may have said it had a legitimate clinical use for the shipments, but as Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector, says, such an excuse "was naive to believe, even at the time."

For your information, a handy little cut-out-and-keep guide to some of the US supplies of biological agents to Iraq:
Botulinum - ATCC sent six strains of Clostridium botulinum to the University of Baghdad in May 1986 shipment. In September 1988 another ATCC shipment to Iraq also contained one strain of Clostridium botulinum. In March 1986, the CDC sent samples of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxiod (used to make a vaccine against botulinum poisoning) directly to Iraq's al-Muthanna complex, a centre for Iraq's chemical weapons program and the site where Iraq restarted its dormant biological weapons program in 1985. There Iraq admitted making 5,300 gallons of botulinum toxin.
Anthrax - ATCC sent two shipments of anthrax to Iraq in the 1980s. Three anthrax strains were in a May 1986 shipment sent to the University of Baghdad, which U.N. inspectors later linked to Iraq's biological weapons program. A 1988 shipment from ATCC to Iraq also included four anthrax strains. Iraq later admitted preparing 2,200 gallons of anthrax spores.
Gas gangrene - ATCC sent three strains of Clostridium perfringens to the University of Baghdad in the May 1986 shipment and another three strains in the 1988 shipment. U.N. inspectors concluded Iraq could have produced hundreds of gallons of the germs that cause gas gangrene, though Iraq admitted producing just a fraction of that amount.

It's fascinating that you were one of the hawks who declared that we should heed the dodgy dossier as proof of Saddam's ill intent, and yet it seems you are now trying to persuade us that the shipments of biological materiel from the US were put to entirely peaceful purposes!
Do make your mind up, poppet! Or, at the very least, stop being naive.

By the way, is all this from the single shipment that was carried in one piece of hand-luggage of one chap on one commercial flight, as you insisted was the case? Do enlighten us, there's a love.

And any news on the firing squads yet?

Subject: RE: BS: 100's of thousands displaced Iraqis
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 12:04 AM

Well, Teribus must have been shipped out to Iraq to solve their logistical oil problems. We'll never get answers to our questions--how sad.