BS: Watching Bush's speech

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:56 PM

*LOL*

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: GUEST,Nobody
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

Look up the "McCollum Plan" for an understanding of how FDR got the U.S. into WW2. Americans wouldn't support involvement in Europe, so the Japanese were forced to attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM

Yes, that is essentially correct. Roosevelt initiated trade sanctions against Japan in 1941, cutting off their foreign sources of oil and steel, and they were forced to either unilaterally surrender without a fight, give up in China and elsewhere, go home, and become a 3rd rate power...or attack the USA and Great Britain and Holland (the overseas Dutch possessions, that is). Being of a samurai character (samurai do NOT surrender), they naturally did the inevitable and attacked the USA, Britain, and Dutch East Asia (where the oil was).

So Roosevelt engineered the "Day of Infamy" as surely as if he had delivered the orders himself. It makes his big display of outrage in Congress after the fact look pretty phony, in retrospect. What an act! I think, though, that he was very surprised just how effective the Japanese navy and air force turned out to be....so he may well have been very upset all right. He probably did not expect them to do nearly so much damage when they struck. Their quality level had been grossly underestimated by everyone in the US military except Claire Chennault, commander of the American Volunteer Group in China (the Flying Tigers). Chennault knew better. He had been fighting the Japanese air force already, and knew how good they were.

I'm telling you, Uncle Sam, the only reason you disagree with my viewpoint on the roles of the USA and its so-called "enemies" is that you are blissfully unaware that it is the USA that has caused the present conflicts by its own policies...and it is not the USA that is the victim. The small countries that you named are all its victims. The USA is now doing what Nazi Germany did in the 30's. It's doing what Japan did in East Asia in the 30's. It's doing what Rome did once to the people all around it. It's doing what conquering empires do...it's attacking smaller nations and devouring and enslaving them, by means of money, media, and firepower.

Your only error is that you can't see that you happen to be living in a great aggressor nation...not a nation that defends itself legitimately at all, but a nation that attacks others, drives them to absolute despair...at which point they fight back as best they possibly can.

You're in good company. Millions upon hundreds of millions of Germans, Japanese, Romans, Greeks, British, Persians, and citizens of other great imperial empires in the past have made the same simple mistake you are making...imagining that they were legitimately defending themselves, when in fact they were serving the greatest aggressor power of their time.

So I am not surprised that you don't get it. You're just like most other people. They always think it's "the other guy" who caused all the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:44 PM

Hey you guys, don't be hard on "Uncle Sam".   As a stalwart Bush supporter, he used up all his brain power typing "Ahmadinejad" correctly. You can't expect him to get Iran in the right hemisphere. It's not reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:47 PM

Oh, God.... (laughing helplessly) Now, Ron, don't be cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:23 PM

It's like one of my cats--my cat has used up all his brain power in looking good.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:26 PM

(our cats--in case Jan sees this--she actually does a lot more cat care than I do--uh oh-sounds like THREAD CREEP)

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: GUEST,Nobody
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:17 PM

(FDR implemented the McCollum Plan and then monitored Japanese transmissions. He knew well before the attack that Pearl Harbor was going to be hit):

...Admiral Husband E. Kimmel had replaced the fired Admiral Richardson. Again, he knew nothing specific about the coming attack, but to protect the fleet he sent his battleships out of Pearl with forty other vessels and aerial reconnaissance. Washington ordered those ships back to Pearl and told Kimmel to stop aerial reconnaissance. The ships wound up beside each other at anchor. The approaching Japanese broke radio silence 28 times. Both Army and Navy intelligence knew exactly where they were, but the White House instructed them not to tell Kimmel and General Walter Short. Foreign vessels were also receiving those Japanese signals, but our commanders were deliberately kept in the dark. Even the Oahu radar station was shut down, which blinded Pearl Harbor.

On December 6th, 1941, Roosevelt read a message from Tokyo to its Japanese embassy and said, "This means war." On his desk, Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall had a telephone that was a direct line to Pearl. He could have picked it up and given General Short crucial hours of warning. Instead, he sent a commercial telegram. Needless to say, when somebody finally handed Short the telegram, the attack was already under way. "Dear General Short, You will be attacked." While Short was being bombed, Marshall was horseback riding that Sunday morning....

http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ROOSEV~1.htm

...Kimmel and Short were not even sent the Bomb Plot messages that were obtained between September 24th and December 7th, although they were sent in the J-l9 and PA-K2 codes which were less secret than Purple and could have been read at Pearl Harbor at any time by Commander (now Captain) Joseph J. Rochefort, Admiral Bloch's talented and experienced cryptanalyst and Communications Intelligence officer, if he had been assigned this duty. These Bomb Plot messages, as we have seen, pinpointed Pearl Harbor as the first target of any Japanese Surprise attack....

...If he could have received these J-19 and PA-K2 messages that carried the Bomb Plot material, decoded and translated them, and turned them over to Kimmel and Short, there can be no reasonable doubt that these commanders would have taken defensive actions long before November 25th that would have called a halt to Yamamoto's plan to send a task force to attack Pearl Harbor....

http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/ph25_4.html

(FDR then left civilians behind in the Phillipines, to whip up war fever):

Hundreds of former US prisoners of war have begun a battle for compensation after uncovering documents that allegedly prove the wartime administration deliberately used them as a tool to whip up domestic support for war with Japan.

A former prisoner has uncovered papers in the US National Archive that she claims prove the government restricted the travel of 7,000 American citizens from the Philippines, while at the same time encouraging evacuation of Americans from other potential Japanese targets in China and south-east Asia.

A federal lawsuit filed yesterday in Washington, DC, alleges that the government at first wanted to keep Americans in the Philippines to discourage Japanese aggression, but later used them as a political tool.

A group of 500 former prisoners claim the plan was devised by the US wartime leader, Franklin D Roosevelt. with the approval of Winston Churchill, Britain's Prime Minister, to cause outrage among American citizens unwilling to back a war on Japan.

Americans were denied passport and travel documents to let them flee. They were later captured by the Japanese and held in notorious camps under appalling conditions....

http://www.rense.com/general27/ph.htm

(George W. Bush tried FRD's Phillipine tactic in during the recent attack by Israel on Lebanon. A few thousand dead Americans, blame it on Hezbollah or al Qaida...that would be helpful to the "war effort," wouldn't it):

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - An eight-deck cruise liner carrying more than 1,000 Americans sailed out of Beirut's port Wednesday, the first mass U.S. evacuation from Lebanon since Israeli airstrikes started more than a week ago....

...Many of those aboard were relieved to depart, after complaints of slow action by the United States compared to European countries that sent cruise ships, ferries and warships over the past three days to move out thousands....

http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=6890

(Government-sponsored terrorism works. Don't fall for it)

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM

Hey, Guest Nobody, I don't like the link you posted (It is not only bigoted but illiterate). Therefore I must ask if that is your only source for your assertions.

Among other lovely things it says, regarding FDR's supposed Jewish ancestry:

"From the viewpoint of eugenics, it explains his natural bent toward radicalism.

"It shows why he has given hundreds of so-called Liberals, Socialists and Communists powerful positions in the national government. It reveals the origin of the sinister spirit which today animates the White House. It proves unmistakably, that the Roosevelt Administration offers a biological, as well as a political problem."

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:45 PM

Liberals, Socialists, Communists.....sinister spirit which now animates the White House? As if the "sinister spirit" has anything to do with liberals. This just shows the hopeless confusion in the mind of whoever put this stuff together.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:33 PM

FDR and George Marshall were responsible for Pearl Harbor. Why do you try to divert from the message to the messenger?   The Kimmel / Richardson information is at a hundred sites on the internet. Pick one that's more literate. Pick one that's less "bigoted" in your opinion. The facts of Pearl Harbor will still be the same. Maybe this is why George W. Bush was nearly able to get away with the sacrifice of thousands of Americans in Lebanon, because people like you want to quibble over internet links.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: GUEST,Nobody
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:34 PM

FDR and George Marshall were responsible for Pearl Harbor. Why do you try to divert from the message to the messenger?   The Kimmel / Richardson information is at a hundred sites on the internet. Pick one that's more literate. Pick one that's less "bigoted" in your opinion. The facts of Pearl Harbor will still be the same. Maybe this is why George W. Bush was nearly able to get away with the sacrifice of thousands of Americans in Lebanon, because people like you want to quibble over internet links.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:44 AM

Yet another GUEST (or is it the same one) who doesn't know anything but how to cut-and-paste and to spew hatred for things and people he (or she) really doesn't know anything about. Cuts and pastes from the gamier websites.

This is not a matter of "killing the messenger." This is a matter of reading the message, judging it for what it is, and writing off the messenger as just another slime-ball.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:08 AM

Well, Don, I don't know about George Marshall one way or the other, but I do know that FDR cut off Japanese access to oil and steel in 1940, because he knew that if he did they would be forced to respond by going to war. He wanted them to, because he needed a way to get the USA into the war so he could defeat Germany.

Do I judge FDR badly for so doing? Maybe...and maybe not. It's a mixed picture. I think he was quite realistic about the Nazis, and if that was the only way to get the isolationist USA in the mood for war...then perhaps that was the best thing to do.

In doing it one had necessarily to mislead and betray various of one's own people and put them in harm's way, but things like that happen all the time in politics and war. It goes with being a politician.

I don't think FDR was any worse than most. He was probably better than many. He was fortunate to be on the winning side, though, because winning generally absolves all blame when it comes to that sort of thing. Few questions are asked afterward when you win.

When you lose, you may end up being put on trial and hanged.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:17 AM

Sorry that I'm drifting back on subject.

Bush was on "60 Minutes" eariler this evening trying to re-explain himself. He did such a poor job that I couldn't take more than a few minutes of his torture & begged to change the channel.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:21 AM

Heh! I bet it really ticks him off that he is obliged to explain things at all...

Takes all the fun out of being "Commander In Chief", after all. What's the use of being Commander in Chief when people want explanations for your every decision? Attila never had to put up with guff like that, and neither did Julius Caesar.

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: GUEST,Nobody
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:30 AM

Well if FDR was right to arrange the attack at Pearl Harbor (or at least sit passively by and do nothing), then Bush was right to arrange 9/11 (or at least sit passively by and do nothing). After all, the Nazis were a threat that had to be dealt with. And after all, the Moslems are a threat that need to be dealt with.

The Roosevelt cabal was responsible for Pearl Harbor. The Bush cabal was responsible for 9/11. American leaders murdering Americans in order to rally the country behind wars is not acceptable. 84% of Americans don't believe the official govt version of what happened on 9/11. The country didn't have access to the truth in 1941, but we do now. The U.S. govt did the 9/11 job.

And yet whiny old pantywaists dither and naysay. Nattering nabobs of negativism, as Spiro Agnew said. Someone points to clear historical connections between events, and you want to play the Jew card. Or the URL card. You don't want things to change. The greatest generation was bought off with faint praise. So pitiful. One of you old stains please tell me what the WW2 generation did that was great? They went off to fight yet another rich man's war and still, with today's internet, they can't string together a half dozen bits of information that show they were HAD. Fought a rich man's war, both sides backed by the same bankers, half the world given to the Ruskies afterwards so we could continue the conflict through another half century and a bunch more wars, and the fossils can't figger it out. Fed their kids to the machine in Viet Nam, their grandkids to the machine in Iraq, and they still think they're the greatest generation. Someone please explain why that is. I know 15 years olds who have figured this out, so why can't the old folks?

Subject: RE: BS: Watching Bush's speech
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:48 AM

Well, everyone was had, most particulary the millions of young Germans who marched for Hitler.

But you've hit on the key difference between FDR's actions and Bush's. The war with Germany was inevitable, and FDR knew it. And it was necessary, in a general sense, once it got going between the UK and Germany, to pursue that war to a conclusion, because Hitler's Germany was a very aggressive and ambitious nation...a real threat to its neighbours, in other words.

The present world conflict with Muslims was never necessary. They were not a real threat to the USA, but mostly a manufactured one. Al Queda is not a nation or the representative of a nation. It is not the armed forces of a nation. It is a clandestine organization. Clandestine organizations should be dealt with by international police investigations, not by lauching mechanized wars against whole nations! Al Queda has, in fact, merely been used as an excuse to assault whole nations that Mr Bush wanted to invade.

Therefore I submit that the situation is quite different, in that Roosevelt was reacting to a genuine threat (German expansionism), whereas the Bush administration made up imaginary threats that were not real...and is itself an expansionist power.

Roosevelt had a modern nation and its military forces to fight...three of them, in fact, with armed forces which were competitive with his own. Bush did not. He made up false threats.

Therefore, I find Roosevelt's actions just a bit more explainable and rational than Bush's, don't you? ;-)

I was not in WWII. My father was. He drove a tank, and he always said that the whole war experience was the stupidest, most wasteful thing he ever saw in his life...but he was quite motivated to defeat the Germans, nonetheless. He regarded them as a real threat, and they were...at that time. They certainly aren't now. It's America that is a real threat now. It's America that invades countries that are too small and poorly armed to fight back effectively.