Session Defined

Subject: Session Defined
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:35 AM

I've just read through the threads "I walked in on session" and "shakey eggs 101" which are similar. Quite apart from the light hearted fun is something that troubles me.

I've notices some musicians getting quite annoyed when a tyro shows up with comb and paper or a shakey egg. Reaction ranges from annoyance to death threats muttered under breath.

It seems to me that if a group is going to get together to jam they ought to put up a little sign or somehow let it be known wether it is a:
CLOSED
OPEN
BY INVITATION
WORKSHOP
HOOTENANNY
PROS ONLY
COME AND LISTEN

session. Wouldn't this end a lot of grief? It would sure make it easier to tell the rythmless egg shakers that they need to form their own session or come back on Wednesday night for a beginners' workshop.

I believe the last thing folk singers want is for interested "folks" to walk away feeling that those who sing about the plight of the common man are a bunch of arrogant elitists which is how some of those posts sound. What do you say?

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,Paul Burke Without Cookery
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:49 AM

All that's needed is sensitivity. If you go to a session and find everyone playing Donegal fiddle and pipes 50 to the dozen, don't bother with your shaky egg. If there's a guy playing Harvest Home on a melodica with advert breaks and everybody watching avidly, shake away. If it's inbetween, choose the right time to agitate the ovum. Nearly all sessions I've been to are somewhere inbetween, and don't forget that all but the best players can find they are outclassed in a session. The choice is sit back and listen and learn, join the punters at the bar, or leave and do something else, or a combination of all three.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,PaulS
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

Session players generally don't give a tinker's cuss about what other folk think of them. They meet together to play tunes for enjoyment, primarily for their own enjoyment and not as a performance. They/we shouldn't however have to put up with some dickhead 'joining in' with a shakey egg or whatever.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it! :-)

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:13 AM

All that's needed is sensitivity

So easy, and yet so hard! (apparently, for some)
Yet failure in that department (whether by participants or pub landlord) is the sole cause of almost everything that's ever gone wrong with a session.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:06 AM

"All that's needed is sensitivity."

But the problem is obviously that that sensitivity is often lacking. That is the point of the original poster's suggestion isn't it?

"They/we shouldn't however have to put up with some dickhead 'joining in' ... "

As someone recently said: "That is the point of the original poster's suggestion isn't it?"

How about some responses that actually address Slag's idea, rather than repeat arguments made on the other threads he refers to?

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

From experience I know how irritating it can be as a not totally accomplished singer, to try to keep on tune with someone noodling tunelessly on a flute or using a percussive instrument out of time in the background. I've even had a guitar played (very badly) in 'accompaniment' in the past. In an open session it is very difficult to avoid.

Maybe there should be a suggestion at the start of a session that, if a singer wishes to be accompanied, they will say so before beginning.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:44 AM

It's utterly impractical that's why. Say I put up a notice at the session, saying OPEN. What I mean is that anyone's invited to join in. But I don't mean the guy with the Highland pipes should join in while Judy's singing Seeds of Love, and I don't mean that the guy with the guitar should play a random sequence of chords loud and in a different time. So what I really mean is 'join in if you can contribute- listen very carefully to see if other musicians think you are making it better or worse'.

So I put up PROS ONLY. But that rules out not only me but my brother, who is one of the best Irish session accompanists in the country.

BY INVITATION- how do you get invited? We can only tell what you are like by listening to you. Perhaps DON'T COME BACK IF YOU'RE NOT INVITED BACK might work, but I think you could put that on any session.

That's why it's up to the participants to be sensitive, and to take notice of negative vibes coming from the established crowd. Sessions are seldom unwelcoming to musicians who make a positive contribution, but there are so many levels of achievement that what might be positive in one place wrecks another session.


Take it as read, there are dozens of different kinds of sessions, different reasons for having them, four and twenty ways of constructing tribal lays, and it;'s up to the would-be participant to work out what kind it is, and whether it's better to join in wholeheartedly, join in diffidently, sit and enjoy, or give it up as not for you.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

Wot does 'hootenanny' mean?

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:10 AM

Part of the problem is that the majority of 'Folkies' are FAR too polite , and will 'put up' with ALL sorts of incompetent singers and musicians , rather than risk offending somneone . I am something of a 'noodler' myself , but all it needs is a 'look' and I will stop ,
though a lot of people who know me suggest a key or start note to me !
The Sensitinity thing works both ways though - IF joining a session , DONT just leap in , and if a stranger joins your session , try and help them find their feet !

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:51 AM

The 'etiquette' varies from session to session, IME (I assume we are including what some people call "singarounds" in this).

Some sessions or singarounds are open to everyone to all comers - I would call this an open session or open singaround (or "come all ye" as they used to be called). If a session is not open to outsiders, I suppose it would be a closed session. I'm not aware of any closed sessions myself, but I suppose they must exist - I guess there would be no point in advertising them though. A closed session would be private and so shouldn't concern others. I suppose the 'cliquey' session would be something like that though, where they only grudgingly let others join in.

Most people know their limitiations and will keep quiet if they can't keep up or don't know the tune/chords etc. The problem comes when someone doesn't know but persists in playing regardless. These people must be thick skinned as well as tone deaf and I'm not sure how you could deal with them without being rude.

For singarounds/playarounds, where each person has a turn, I prefer it where the default is for the others to shut up, unless invited to join in by the performer. But I've been to some sessions where people seem to join in as a matter of course, even when they have their own turn. I guess in that case you could "retaliate" by "noodling" or whatever while they are playing/singing - maybe that might get the message across - but I somehow doubt it. Again, these people are probably a bit thick skinned.

I agree that sensitivity is the answer, and most of us have that. It just takes one person to spoil a good session though.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:12 AM

Well put Scrump

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,Martin Ellison
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:17 AM

I'm always puzzled by the session/singaround debate but then I can only speak from my own experience. I started attending what I knew as sessions almost 35 years ago. Sessions were usually held in a public space - pub room usually - and included tunes and songs. Although there was an (unavoidable) core of musicians and singers they were in no way "cliquey" - they were just the regular local attendees - others, whether singers, musicians or (shock horror) Joe Public were always welcomed. The singers learnt to jump in just as quickly as the musicians, there was no competition. And why should there be? It made for a natural, lively, entertaining and organically grown evening, lots of chat and lots of laughter.

It was years later when I encountered my first "singaround" - I was dumbstruck. Some people have taken this so literally, going around the room in an unnatural and self-conscious procession. There seems to about half the musical content (time-wise) of an ordinary, open session. It is also quite difficult to hold these in a public space (although I do know of a couple that do work in this environment, possibly because the element of public performance has honed the format) chat is minimal and the atmosphere stilted.

Whilst I understand the need for beginners or those with less self-confidence to have a platform for their performance I honestly believe that the mixed "session" (as I have experienced it) is more conducive to developing one's talents.

Martin
(I'm ducking now to avoid the flak, but bring it on all the same!)

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: My guru always said
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

Guess that puts me in the 'less-self-confident' group then as I'm still not able to 'jump in' at a session, despite doing the odd gig in folk clubs and festivals. But then I've always felt that 'sessions' are more for musicians than singers....

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

"These people must be thick skinned as well as tone deaf and I'm not sure how you could deal with them without being rude."

I don't think there's usually a need to be rude - some elementary communication skills may be required though, and these do seem to be in short supply. There are people out there who need things explained to them; they don't pick up on the non-verbal cues - it's not necessarily their fault; it's the way their brains are wired and perhaps the nature of the family they grew up in. People like this simply need social rules explained to them, and often appreciate that. I have seen countless instances of people being rude in sessions, but have not often seen someone turn to a neophyte and explain what's going on ...

By the way, I'm not a master of communication skills myself, but I do try to find ways around out-and-out rudeness.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:51 PM

I go with Hilary. Unless you have a really good strong voice it is very difficult to 'jump in' at a mixed session with no rules. You really do have to be ready to start the moment that the music stops.

I've been involved in a number of different singarounds and not really found them stilted. So far as chatting is concerned I go to folk sessions of one kind and another for the music. For me, too much chat spoils the evening, particularly if it carries on while someone is singing.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Although there was an (unavoidable) core of musicians and singers they were in no way "cliquey" - they were just the regular local attendees - others, whether singers, musicians or (shock horror) Joe Public were always welcomed.

That's how I prefer things, as far as welcoming people is concerned.

Some people have taken this so literally, going around the room in an unnatural and self-conscious procession.

This is where we differ, Martin, because I don't think it's "unnatural", just fair. As guru and jacqui have said above, some people don't like "jumping in" and so don't often get a chance. I don't really like doing it, either, but I would if I had to. I would have thought the "jumping in" would itself lead to friction, if two or more people try to compete to be heard.

GUEST,meself: I agree, I was a bit lazy earlier. I assumed the usual diplomatic approach (gently suggesting they keep quiet while others are singing/playing) would have been tried first. Of course I don't like rudeness (either being rude or being on the receiving end) any more than most people. Sorry if I gave the impression I'm one of those intolerant people who are rude at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM

Well, no, you didn't give that impression - and I was a bit lazy too: sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that you were one of those intolerant people, etc.!

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Well, as one of the starters of the aformentioned threads that bothers Slag I think he is correct that there is a point behind the thread (I can't speak for the other thread insitigator obviously).

I started the Shakey Egg 101 (better thread title than mine btw) partly as a joke, but because the shakey egg has become a symbol of something more in sessions - people who want to join in, but don't want to learn an instrument, don't want to learn about the music and don't want to enjoy the subtlety and nuance of a good trad session.

I do not claim to be some kind of great trad musician - I'm not, and I have so much to learn I suspect a lifetime of playing will never be enough, but I do try and further my playing, even if my progress seems infintesimal and glacially slow.

I started years ago on bodhran, eager and in love with the instrument and this mysterious new music - I really wanted to play in sessions even though I knew little about our indigenous music of our Islands. After several years (and with a much bodhran player than me in our local sessions) I then moved on to mandolin because I loved the tunes and wanted to play them. I stuck with that and at some point brought a bouzouki, which I didn't play out for a couple of years due to shyness and being crap, although now the mando stays at home and I play my zook all the time. I am still crap.

However, I have learnt to respect the musicians I play with as being a talented and (for the most part) welcoming and friendly bunch. They put up with me when I was learning, they put up with me now (even when I play in the wrong key). In the sessions we play in newcomers are welcomed and learners of all levels are encouraged.

The trouble is when you have a shakey egg(s) in your session for years, only playing a bom-bom-bom metronomic pattern. This isn't an attempt to engage with the music or actually play with people, it's imposing a noise that disregards the subtlties of rhythm and the interplay between players when a tune is being played.

I don't care what instrument people play, or at what level. I do think if you can't be arsed to learn what a slip jig is, or a reel, then don't play on it - and put the sodding egg (or whatever) down.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

In an open session it is very difficult to avoid.

It's quite easy at one session I go to - there are no songs. There are of course people quite capabale of giving a song amongst the musicians but they save that for other occasions.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:28 PM

Well, that's right stigweard. It's again a question of sensitivity and thoughtfulness. I myself have joined in a session, and can usually play along with most tunes, but occasionally come across one that I can't follow very well - in which case I'll drop out. Others don't seem to think it matters if they play the wrong chords or whatever.

The other thing that annoys me when people play along with me if I'm meant to be doing a solo turn, is that I do my own arrangements of songs that don't always use the 'normal' chords, so if others join in without being asked, it can clash with what I'm doing, rather than improve it. I had this type of experience recently and I do find it off-putting. But I was too polite or timid to ask the guy to stop (he was a regular at the session and I was a visitor, so I bit my tongue).

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,Fidjit
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 02:33 PM

How about the word
ORGANIZED

Meaning we all take turns to start a tune/sing a song. Join in if you want, but stay behind the starter. Don't try and take over. Your turn will come round.

Works well in a lot of places.

Always annoying in an un-organised session if there's one group or guy dominating and not letting the others have a go.

Chas

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:01 PM

I go to a regular "open jam" kind of thing at a local bar, and while it's truly open, you will find yourself banned from the bar if you don't observe at least some basic courtesy. There's always a mix of musical styles, and anyone who chooses is free to join in or sit out, so it's fairly loose and informal.

Problems are rare, but one woman was recently re-banned simply for joining in. The fact was, she was terrible, plus she was absolutely convinced of her own talent, and no one wanted to play with her.

I always find myself outclassed, because there are some excellent regulars or semi-regulars. I love being outclassed, because it's an opportunity to watch someone who's spent enough time with their music to treat it like and old and close friend. I can watch people and get new ideas, see how they approach their playing and how it differs from my approach, and simply enjoy the great stuff they come up with and do my best to keep up. It's a worthwhile experience, but you can't forget that in any social setting, there are unspoken rules of conduct.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

If I ruled the world....

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: GUEST,Bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:25 PM

I have been going to sessions ,Irish & English,for some years now. I soon recognised that some people liked the way I played (guitar ) & some people did not .They ventured their opinions,& I tried to take it on board,such that now, if I find that I can"t really do justice to a tune, then I don"t play !! Although,if you"re keen, it requires some self-discipline !! People in sessions need to dump the great British Reserve ,& ask the egg-shakers to desist.Ideally,the session should be in a pub like the one I play in,in Slough---The final arbiter is the Irish landlord thereof,who has an eloquent way,to be sure,of weeding out the chaff !! Although---I"d like to see HIM deal with that bloke who turns up everywhere with the musical (?) saw !!
But then, even the chaff,if they want to improve,have to be given the opportunity---So what"s the answer ??? I don"t know !!

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:39 PM

One time at our jam, there was a guy with a saw, but he played it really well and it sounded great. Too bad some people apparently don't feel the need to "practice" before playing with other musicians.

Subject: RE: Session Defined
From: Slag
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:23 AM

I kinda hate to bring it up just now. I have no stock in FOX network but I see a parallel point with the poor souls who spend hours waiting to audition for the show and they have no idea how untalented and bad they really are and when someone tells them in no uncertain terms that they should never even hum in public they reject the honest criticism. So, yeah, there may be a skewed line coming from either direction but I definitely have to take the artists' side in this ongoing struggle. If the egg or the armpit is your only insturment or area of expertise, sit it out.

But who knows? Some bright January 1st in Pasadena CA we may see an all Shakey Egg Marching Band!!! Trudging through the 250 calvary unit ahead of them, no doubt.

I was going to explain "Hootenanny" but I see someone has started a new thread with that idea in mind. Great discussion so far and very enlightening to me.